I want to be one to test and report on the Raul phono stage. |
Along the lines of Dougdeacon's comment, the availability of a $800 SUT may make it possible for a financially-challanged audiophile to use a superior MC cartridge, that would be out of the question if he had to buy a $5000 preamp. One must consider the cartridge/SUT combination in this tradeoff. |
Raul. I have emailed you off line.
BTW, now that I have my Pass Xono back I am lot happier. The SUT's that I have listened to - EAR 834 and manley steelhead have been very dynamics but have had a sort of unnatural high end and rather loose bass with the EAR.
cheers |
I e-mailed my address off line |
Dear gregad and Downunder: I would like to know your address. Btw, if any one is interested about please e-mail your address.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Shane is right: it is not a cheap unit.
Our Phonopreamp are in " true " three preamps: one MC, one MM and one Line level stage, all independent. Now, the three are true balanced input to output, this means that in reality they are: 6 single ended stages!!!!!
In other words: six preamps in one integrated unit!!!!!!
Right now I'm out of home in a business trip. I return at the middle of the next week and I would like to make a plan for the " hearing " of that Phonopreamp.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul |
Dear Gregad: Our Phonopreamp is in no way a Vendetta clone ( with all my respect to JC. ), is is a very different design.
Stay tunned.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Gregadd, no guts no glory!
this could be the first step to a real priced Boulder phono stage beater!! |
Downunder-you certainly have thrown down the gauntlet!
Raul-Never enter into a conditional contract based on the customers satisfaction!:-)! |
Gregadd.
Would you buy the phono stage if you liked it?? I would.
It is not a cheap unit. :) |
Raul My suggestion that you build a prototype of your preamp was somewhat "tongue in cheek"(I don't know if that expression translates into Spanish)given the spec's and the fact that it is a vendetta clone, it would be worht it.
Personally I wish someone could "soup up" My SP 14 with varialble load resistance and capacitance. Also with the latest elctronic components.
Mostly because I like its straight wire with gain approach and the controls on the front panel.
Sorry, Downunder I suggested, it so I'm first. |
Raul
Me for one will be happy to be a beta tester and try out your phono stage and let the gon know about my experiences. If I like I will buy it.
Me I have gone back to the Pass Xono for the moment after trying many other phono stages.
email me seperately if you like
cheers Shane |
Dear friends: +++++ " I think Raul should build a prototype and send it to me for evaluation. " *****
I'm thinking very serious about and I think that I will take the " Gregad word " for build a prototype of the Phonopreamp and share/send with some of you this unique experience. Interested??
It is an expensive prototype but I will do!!! Yes.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Onhwy61: +++++ " If growing up means becoming as dogmatic and narrow-minded as you are regarding this issue, then I don't want to grow up. " +++++
I don't think I'm dogmatic and certainly not narrow-minded.
In the last 10-12 years we try/test different alternatives for our AHG PP: SS, tubes, hybrid, Fets, Bipolars, Suts, no Suts, etc, etc.
Can you call this narrow-minded and dogmatic?
Now, what is all about?. You agree with me about SUTs.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
sorry about the typos.no pun intended. |
Dear Gregad: Two things, first my mistake about RIAA eq. deviation, it has to say: 0.1 db instead 1 db. ( big difference ).
About the Manley S/N you have to compare with the fixed output at 65 db gain: 70 db.
About the Vendetta, that was a criticism in the very early models ( many years ago ). The actual CTC ( that inbody the Vendetta ) is very good.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I was referring to the father (David?). He designs the pruducts while the kids run the company.
My point is that a transformer can yield a lower noise floor than a comparable high gain preamp.
It osunds hofi? that same criticism was made of rhe vendetta. |
Gregadd. What does Luke Manley have to do with this thread. VTL don't even make a phono stage.
You must be confusing Eva Anna's Manley company which makes the steelhead. IMO, it is very quiet and has great dynamics - I can see why people like it, but to me sounded too hifi. |
Well in Luke Manleys' defense he clearly is using the transformer to lower the noise floor. Go to his website and check for yourself. I have stated before that frequency response especially in electronics remains the most overated spec ever. He does claim s/n of 100db. |
Dear Shane: I never said thet the SUTs are bad, what I said is that any SUT design at any price do severe degradation to the quality of the signal that comes from the cartridge and that a PP design with out SUTs is a lot better that one with SUTs.
+++++ " I think as a few of the guys in the thread here have stated - it all depends on the design, the listener's musical preference and current tonal qualities of his system and budget. " +++++
If you want to use it like equalizers, fine it is up to you or up to any one but trying to cover faulties in the audio chain through SUTs is a double mistake!!!!!!!
The transformers exist before the LO cartridges and that transformers were not designed taking in account the LO cartridges. Someone take the transformers, like a patch, and introduce to us in audio: very bad play.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul. I would not trust his wide ranging opinion that transformers are the only way to load a MC cartridge. Just the same I won't believe you that all SUT's are bad.
I think as a few of the guys in the thread here have stated - it all depends on the design, the listener's musical preference and current tonal qualities of his system and budget.
My mind is open on both sides of the fence and from what I have heard both are legitimate choices someone can make for their own musical enjoyment.
cheers Shane |
Dear Clio09: +++++ " Both these designers make outstanding phono stages and I'm sure they would never recommend something that is proven to compromise the sound of their designs. " +++++
These gentleman, like many others, make their designs with a price target and they make their design inside that price target. This " limited/inadequate " price target put a lot of compromises in the quality sound reproduction of the audio devices and in this case they have to make compromises in the quality sound reproduction using SUTs. Of course that they can do better but they choose their trade-offs.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregad: +++++ " This means that we need a preamp with about 60-80db gain in the phono stage.Agree Y/N?
Optimally we also need about 80-100db S/N ratio(unweighted). AgreeY/N? " +++++
I think that you forgot to the most important characteristic in a Phonopreamp: we need a phonopreamp because the PP is the only audio device that can reproduce in the right way the cartridge signal due to mimic the inverse RIAA eq. The specs here is, which is the RIAA eq. deviation?: I think that has to be in no more than 1 db ( +,- 0.5 db ), ours is 0.02 db.
Btw, our S/N ratio ( MC ) is 82.5 db A weighted refered to 0.5 mv.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregm: +++++ " . But let's face it: as Gregadd seems to imply, a good tranny, while expensive, is nowhere near the cost and rarerity of an outstanding fully active 80-100db riaa. " +++++
Well, a Manley Steelhead or a Lamm one are not inexpensive units: both use SUTs and , here, you have to pay for it. Yes, a good Phonopreamp with out SUTs is more expensive.
+++++ " If what Raul is to make sense, he is using a very well stabilised active circuit and he's using his components in their optimum operating region. That's difficult and painstaking to design and implement ... " ++++
Absolutely, that's why is so expensive and it is not only a money issue it is deep knowledge about.
We love music and we love to care about its home reproduction. We love to have almost perfect targets about and we love and take the hard challenge: it is exaiting, fun and extremly emotive/emotional experiences about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul says, This is what is all about. If we can grow up in our audio hobby then we are on the " right road ". Don't you think? My answer is, No, that's not what it is all about. If growing up means becoming as dogmatic and narrow-minded as you are regarding this issue, then I don't want to grow up. One thing I truly love about this hobby is that there is no single "right" road. There seems to be multiple solutions for any problem with each solution having its own sets of pros/cons. I may actually agree with you regarding transformers. It's not a particularly elegant design solution. But that dosen't mean I reject there use as a MC step up device. In some situations they are a great solution. As way of an analogy, push rod activated camshafts is primitive when compared to chain driven overhead designs, but it is still possible to produce outstanding engines using the the primitive design element. The talent of the designer can triumph over the technology. And that's not a fact, but simply my opinion. |
Dear Shane: I forgot. About that guy on TNT I can tell you ( with all respect )that he has many misconceptions about SUTs and high gain phonopreamps, I almost can tell you that he does not has experience on HG PP designs. The Accuphase that he named means nothing, but take a look to the pictures of those SUTs ( where he is " very experienced " ) and look for those kind/quality of the wires and the kind of RCA connectors that he is using: Incredible!!!!!
+++++ " . Bass lines are muddy then and drum players seem to play like if they are drunk. " +++++
This statement confirm what I think: that he has very little experience about!!!
Do you trust in his opinion?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Shane: I have a great respect for Tim De Paravancini and for their products but here the issue is not on the name of the designer or the design it self ( SS or tubes ): the issue is that any ( good design ) high gain phonopreamp that use SUTs for achieve that high gain with low noise do more harm to the quality signal that comes from the cartridge that a high gain phonopreamp ( good design ) that don't use SUTs ( active gain designs ).
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregad: I almost agree with all your statements but: 80-100 db S/N ratio ( unweighted ), there is no posibility to achieve this spec on and MC high gain phonopreamp.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Doug: You are welcome!!
The other two alternatives ( best ones ) that they have are:
- HO MC and
- MM cartridges.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I think that all of us take some learning through this kind of dialogue and I put an example from a person that I respect: this very enthusiastic person always defend the SUT against my opinion about, through the time he grow up ( very fast ) and now he own a high gain phonopreamp and today he knows that is really better than the SUTs that he defended. Raul, Thank you for remembering me, but please do me the courtesy of allowing me to explain my own ideas. I never questioned your contention that a $5K+ gain stage could outplay an $800 SUT. All I have said (and still say) is that those on a budget must choose some compromise, such as: - SUT - less expensive gain stage or head amp - avoid LOMC's altogether Each of these choices will degrade sonics in different ways. Which degradation sounds "best" or "worst" depends on listener preferences and system synergy. Gracias, Doug |
Gregadd sez Transformers make it easier to magnify the signal These trannies increase voltage at the expense of current -- they can't increase the energy, as you doubtless know. Downunder: if you're interested in improving your EAR, check a relevant thread by Thorsten Loesch (an advanced diyer)[url+http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2052]here[/url]. As to the note by the TNT writer, he's referring to *circuits* (and many circuits fit that description); components used in a circuit have this bad habit of drifting with temp (& voltage for that matter). If what Raul is to make sense, he is using a very well stabilised active circuit and he's using his components in their optimum operating region. That's difficult and painstaking to design and implement -- but better (even in theory) than using a tranny. But let's face it: as Gregadd seems to imply, a good tranny, while expensive, is nowhere near the cost and rarerity of an outstanding fully active 80-100db riaa. |
Raul.
What do you think of Tim De Paravancini from EAR. He uses transformers extensively in all his products including MC pickups. His EAR 834 is an excellent unit, I am listening to one now and it has a fluidity that the Pass Xono or Ayre Px5 don't seem to have. - not sure what I like better at the moment.
What about this guy from TNT review site who states that
"Active devices are drifting with temperature, operating point and under work, and if input signals are smaller than 1mV, the drift gets into the way of the music. Bass lines are muddy then and drum players seem to play like if they are drunk. So the music is lacking immediateness, and rather sounds hollow, uninvolving, uninteresting".
see his review
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/mc_3xfr_e.html
cheers Shane |
Maybe I'm missing something but if designers like Jim Hagerman and Kevin Carter recommend the use of step-up transformers with their products, then they can't be as bad as Raul makes them out to be. Both these designers make outstanding phono stages and I'm sure they would never recommend something that is proven to compromise the sound of their designs.
BTW - In the interest of full disclosure I use a K&K step-up with a Hagerman Trumpet. This set-up may not be as high quality as some other phono stages out there, including Raul's, that don't require a step-up, but I'd be willing to bet I would have had to pay significantly more to get to that level. |
Raul what I learned ealry is this -insufficicient gain in the phono stage can make a great system sound meidocre. Agree? Y/N?
What we need is a preamp that has sufficient gain to drive the cornucopia of excellent low output mc cartridges? Agree y/n?
This means that we need a preamp with about 60-80db gain in the phono stage.Agree Y/N?
Optimally we also need about 80-100db S/N ratio(unweighted). AgreeY/N?
Luckily there exist a number of of preamps capable of this with no problem. They do tend to be expensive. Agree Y/N?
What does the audiophile do who is either unable to or uwilling to trash his current preamp in favor of one that can drive a low output preamp?
He can avail himself of an outboard pre-pre amp. Or he can avail himself of an outboard transformer. I took into consideration one parameter-noise.
The more you magnify the signal the more you magnify the noise (Ask DR. Dolby). Transformers make it easier to magnify the signal with less amplification of the noise. IME. Of course noise and gain have always been a bigger problem in tubes than solid state. Agree Y/N?
BTW you list a very impressive group of manufacturers who used SUT. you don't really mean to suggest they don't care about music?
|
Dear Onhwy61: First my opinion is not a mere " my opinion ", there are facts objective facts about. Of course that I accept that people may disagree with me, no problem about.
But this SUT case is really critical for only " accept " opinions with out objective facts.
I think that all of us take some learning through this kind of dialogue and I put an example from a person that I respect: this very enthusiastic person always defend the SUT against my opinion about, through the time he grow up ( very fast ) and now he own a high gain phonopreamp and today he knows that is really better than the SUTs that he defended.
This is what is all about. If we can grow up in our audio hobby then we are on the " right road ". Don't you think?
Btw, I can't see on your audio systems any SUT: Good!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul, you have an opinion which you have relentlessly and repeatedly stated regarding transformers and low output MCs. Why can't you just accept that some people may disagree with your considered opinion? |
Dear Gregadd: Well that is yout point of view and I respect it.
I never speak about " lazy " but now that you are mentioned maybe some of them were lazy. I speak about " they don't care about music and quality sound reproduction ".
If you like the SUTs go a head, no problem: is up to you. My point of view is still the same: " a cheap/easy/wrong/worst solution for a complex problem " and I can prove it. Can you prove that the SUT is a better solution ( better quality music reproduction ) than a good high gain phonopreamp design?.
You are a wise person and I can't understand why do you have that attitude of " SUT/designers protector?. The proponents of the SUTs are against you and against all of us: can you understand that?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
transformers were chosen because they are inherently quieter not because the designers were lazy. they were some aggresive pps' like the marcof. |
Dear friends: Here are some facts about why exist the SUTs for LO cartridges ( at least is my point of view ):
- In the fifthies appear the MC LO cartridges ( As a fact: Ortofon invented in 1948. ). In that time all the phonopreamps were designed for HO cartridges MM/MI/etc. No one was in the design of high gain PP because no body need it.
- Ortofon and latter other MC LO cartridges never ask to the PP designers/builders to manufacture a high gain PP for their MC LO cartridges. What I mean is that never exist a cooperation job between the MC LO builders and the PP manufacturers.
- What was the comercial attitude of almost all MC LO cartridges builders?: to put on sale their MC LO cartridges along with a SUTs ( designed for it self ) for those MC LO cartridges.
- I can remember from Ortofon when they design the MC10, MC 20, Mc 30, Mc 2000, Mc 3000 and MC 5000, cartridges at the same time they offer the respective SUT: T 10, T 20, T 30, T 5000.
- Like Ortofon everybody do the same: Denon, Audiocraft, Fidelity Research, Koetsu, Micro Seiki, Accuphase, Dynavector, Highphonic, Audio Technica, Entre, etc, etc.
- In the mid-time what does the PP designers ( SS or tube ) for the development of a high gain PP?: almost nothing, almost all take the easy " cheap road " ( wrong/worst one ): that the customers buy SUTs along with their PP if they want to handle a LO cartridge. Some of the PP designers/builders incorporate in their " high gain " PP internal SUTs, exactly like today ones.
- No body take the challenge to design a HG PP with out SUTs. There are some exceptions: Curl, Levinson, Pass, Klyne, Classé, D'angostino, etc, etc,
- So we all are suffering the " easy road/ wrong road " that almost all designers/builders take it more than 55 years ago.
- All those comercial attitude never take into account us: the audio customers and never take into account the QUALITY MUSIC/SOUND REPRODUCTION. They don't care about in those times and many of them don't care about today.
Fortunatelly, in the last few years, some PP builders finally take the challenge ( others like me designed our self ones ) and we have some very good HG PP, many of them at very high price.
This change of comercial attitude: Bravo!!!!!!, could tell us that the best about is coming because the developtment of HG PPs are really " starting ", it is not a mature industry.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul's system should be called "Shiva". All those arms! |
I think Raul should build a prototype and send it to me for evaluation. |
Wow, Raul- Not only impressive, but I would love to hear one in my system. When do you go into production ;~) |
Dear Gregadd: Well, this is a mature phonopreamp design, part of our 10-12 years of hard/fun working about: testing and hearing, testing and hearing, etc, etc.
We use the best pasive and active parts ( not necessary the more expensive ones ), other than the desing it self we take care all over the whole " instrument ( phonopream ): our ultralow noise circuitry was specifically designed for very low output moving-coil cartridges. The outstanding CMRR of 120 dB at the input stage will reject any interference not present at the audio signal generated by the cartridge, ground plane design , ultra low noise power supply ( better than an alkalyne battery, at least in our design ) that is solid " steady " one: it has more than 40,000 uf of capacitance , bullet proof whole circuit protection, four layers circuit boards, very precise ( almost perfect ) circuit board lay out, good design execution, extremely trusty operation, no internal wires where the signal pass through ( every component is direct soldered to the circuit boards ), etc, etc, etc.. We don't left nothing to " destiny ".
Our phonopreamp had some " old/new " ideas, examples: all the best preamps use at their volume/attenuator a serie's resistors ( it does not matters if they choose doing through relays or ladder attenuators design ), at least two por volume position, in our design the signal pass ONLY for one resistor at any attenuator position.
Our design is a Current Drive one and this allow that the volume control attenuates the audio signal and the stage noise at the same time, resulting in outstanding signal-to-noise ratios and dynamic range.
Our whole design permit to have a preamplifier combining
the purity and transparency of a passive preamplifier with the speed, dynamics and drive of an active preamplifier.
What happen when you hear through our phonopream: SS signature? Tube signature?, not at all, only real music with all the music emotion.
Through our phonopreamp we have not only a different musical experiences but a new emotional one that we never experienced and that we even don't know it could exist in any audio system at any design/price.
Yes we are extremely proud of what we achieve over those working years.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
|
Dear Gregad: This is a quick resume of some info about my phonopreamp:
- In reality our phonopreamp have three preamps instead of only one:
it has and MC phono stage, it has a MM phono stage and a line level stage
preamp. All this three stages are totally independent from each other. We don't do any compromise, the
MC and MM
stages are very critical and needs to be independent.
- Our design is a Zero-feedback ( no overall and no local feedback ),
direct coupled, pure class A , true balanced input to output, dual mono
design and fully regulated input to output with dual external power supply.
To round off the preamplifier's RIAA capabilities, we have introduced a
switchable 3.18 us turnover point to compensate for the cutting head
preemphasis roll-off.
There is also a low-cut filter designed to remove unwanted rumble
frequencies, selectable between DC, 16 and 32 Hz.
- RIAA eq. deviation from 20 Hz to 20 Khz: 0.02 db
Frequency range to: DC to 2 MHz.
Clean gain: Adjustable to 100 db
Signal to noise ratio: better than 82 db
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregadd: Yes, across the bandwidth. Btw, We do some changes on our phonopreamp design/parts and now we have the " final " one I will write the update info about. Stay tunned.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Sorry Raul I chekced your system description that gives 85db of gain and a signal to noise ratio of 82db. Is that across the bandwidth? |
Raul- since you use a custom preamp I have no way to verify your results. How much gain does your preamp have? Have you plotted a distortion versus gain curve for your preamp? Have you plotted a noise versus gain curve? I would be interested in the results. |
" if you want an active gain phono stage that outperform any SUT you have to pay the price $$ ". Agreed. Not easy to find or cheap, but worth doing if you can. Regards, Doug |
Dear Doug: Maybe you are right: it is out of place and no I'm not mis-stated your SUT position: " if you want an active gain phono stage that outperform any SUT you have to pay the price $$ ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
