For many years we have been touting the Lumin products as being one of the best sounding and best implimented paths to creating a fantastic sound in your system.
We sought to be a Lumin dealer after the A1 came out and pretty much got rave reviews as being the best sounding streamer out there, each successive product was better the new T2 is amazing at its price point and challenges $7k streamer/dacs/
sums up Lumins history and even offers a comparison of the X1 vs the Total Dac, and DCS and the Aqua Formula, we actually have tested the upgraded Formula V2 with the Statement and it does sound even bettter.
Summation the best sound the reviewer ever accheived was with the X1.
We sell some of the worlds best dacs, including T+A, Light Harmonic, Aqua Hif, Naim, Mytek, Bricasti, and with the X1 you have to spend $30-50k to better the X1, it is nice to see that other people are agreeing with exactly what we have been saying all along.
If you are looking for the best sound for the money, rock solid reliability, a fantastic feature set, Tidal, Qbouz, Spotify, Apple Airplay to play Youtube or Soundcloud, OTA upgrades, Roon endpoint, full Mqua, DSD and High data rate upsampling, upconversion and playability, solid build quality, built in volume control, the Lumin products are hard to beat.
Alright so you admit you haven’t tested the Teac or spoken with anyone who compared it to LUMIN T2, so all of your page-long comments about that specific question are rank speculation.
Just so that’s clear.
That’s why I asked in first line of my First post post If you’d compared them. You should have just said no I haven’t.
I haven’t either but have heard from people who have and said nt505 right there with T2 at less than half cost. So I guess that’s the only direct comparison either of us have. You should get a Teac and test it.
Also I don’t think it helps a dealer’s credibility to say it is “silly” to focus on the dac chip used in a dac. Uhhhh, that’s kind of a critical piece, don’t you think? Not the only piece but a critical one and as new dac chips get released yearly with better and better specs for same cost it is extremely notable when a so-called leader continues to use 13 yr old technology in a fast moving field. I’m sure that Wolfson was great 13 years ago. So was my Motorola flip phone from same year but I wouldn’t use it today : )
But this is an X1 thread and I’ve diverted too much attention from it already so I’ll sign off. Apologies for the diversion just wondered if a specific comparison had been done and now got the answer. Carry on and enjoy the music
Lalik do your own research, Lumin was one of the first companies to launch a dedicated high end streamer in 2012 with the original A1.
The A1 continued to garner international press with rave reviews from all who heard it.
If you continue forward Lumin' products are almost universally on all magazines lists of recommended digital streamers.
In terms of experience they have been producing world class top rated streamers longer than anyone else.
From the Six Moons Review in 2013 this sums up the company's technical prowess and why they can do what they do.
Lumin is a division of Pixel Magic.
Lumin Music in fact is a subsidiary of Pixel Magic Systems Ltd. which was founded in May 2003 as a privately held video technology equipment manufacturer for home theater and professional A/V markets. With offices in Hong Kong and San Jose/California, Pixel Magic has dealer/distributor networks for its own brand of products in over 25 countries and ODM/OEM customers in Europe and USA. Pixel Magic was the world's first developer to produce a Linux-based video processor under the Crystalio brand. Their core business is being focused on the development of innovative technologies for home-theater video processing/scaling products and high-definition TV-related products with advanced software programming features and design.
If you have the prowess to design and develop your own technolgies and chips that is above what most traditional audio companies can bring to the table.
In the case of Lumins use of Wolfson or ESS Sabre chips the Lumin engineers know that the chip set is one part of the equation and they cleverly look at maximizing the devices sound quality by how the entire circuit is implemented.
Kren we have compared the Lumin D2 to the extremely well reviewed IFI DSD pro which is chock full of some of the most advanced digital technology in the world, DSD 1024 up-sampling, four interleaved Burr Brown dac chips, a GE tube set, extensive re-clocking and anti jitter techniques
The IFI DSD pro was compared by Herb Rechiert to outperform the Schitt Yaggy, and the Holo dac and a few of the highly rated killer $2-3k dacs and he even compared the IFI DSD pro to the $7k Mytek Manhattan.
Some of our clients prefer the warmer sound of the Ifi while others prefer the slightly more immediate yet still warm and full bodied sound of the Lumin the point is you evaluate a dac based on its technology but more importantly you judge its sound quality.
Are we saying that the Lumin products are better than anything else no we are not saying that, we are saying that in each price range the Lumin products are constantly compared to most of their competitors and in most cases sound as good or better for usually less money.
If you don't believe us do your own research and listen to their products.
Again if you think we are only Lumin fans we sell quite a lot of great digital which does include: Mytek, Ifi, Naim, NAD, Bricasti, T+A, Aqua Hifi as well as servers from Innous, Baetis, Nad and Naim.
@audiotroy Sorry I’m a little confused with the old dac element. If these are old DACs how do they perform DSD at the highest level and MQA?Is this performed in software rather than the dac chip?
@highpeakrider Don't allow yourself to be confused. Think in terms of implementation. Akin to a 70 year old NOS tube being used in a very modern implementation.
The Wolfson dac chips are not that old and can do DSD they just cant do the highest sampling rates hence the ESS chips in the T2 and X1.
The fact that the D2 still sounds fantastic is proof positive that the Lumin engineers really do know their stuff.
The problem we all have as audiophiles is that we all want to believe that the latest and greatest chip and or part set is the magic answer.
We are testing out Bricasti's new M3 which dare uses OP amps and our first inclination after seeing that was uck, however, the dac sounds extremely good,
We are going to be testing Zesto's products after talking to George Couneous the owner of Zesto and their lead engineer he is relating that a good potentiometer can sound just as good a switched resistor volume control, and that a good Polypropolene cap can sound as good as more expensive Teflon after both are broken in.
Hey what does George know trained electrical engineer, worked with the British Military and British broad casting and then studio engineering.
The point is that there are many outstanding audio products that are all designed differently parts and design do matter but a well voiced circuit using good parts will outperform a poor circuit implemented with the world's most expensive parts.
What we do is to seek out products that interest us, we get them in and then do comparative testing to see if the new product offers things that our existing product offerings don't.
“Are we saying that the Lumin products are better than anything else no we are not saying that.”
“What we do is to seek out products that interest us”
audiotroy,
Thanks for the clarification. I understand Lumin offers high quality streamers but so does Aurender, Innuos, Antipodes and Auralic (in no particular order). All of the above manufacturers have exemplified themselves as leaders in this segment of audio.
Fortunately, there are plenty of choices at various price points to fit our individual needs. We don’t have to solely rely on fanboys from NJ shilling products based on what they think best serves their interest 😎
Lalik you obviously don’t know what you are talking about in this discussion we are talking about the Lumin as a streaming dac and in that capacity they are among the best in the industry.
Lumin’s pure streamers, the U1 and U1 mini, are considered excellent but many people feel that the more expensive Antipodes, Innous, or Aurender units are even better as pure streamers, and these units also represent either Roon Cores or independent music repositories so again a bit of a different product than what you are talking about.
As per being a Lumin fan boy yes we are, because their products are excellent, as per serving ourselves we are just one company that works with Lumin they have dealers and distributors all over the country.
You also miss the point that yes we do benefit from selling this brand as well as the any of the other 60 or so brands we display and support, we know of very few products that our clients are so happy to purchase put into their systems and enjoy.
How many companies offer what Lumin does, a great range of products at 4 different price points, over the air upgrades, Airplay, Tidal, Obouz, Spotify, internet radio, Roon and MQA, yes we know you will say Aurender and their products are quite good, however, their all in one units with the built in dacs, don’t seem to be as well reviewed and received as the Lumin products, add to that than many people love Roon as well as Roon’s ability to offer whole house control of Sonos, Heos, NAD Blue Sound, Naim, Chromecast and Airplay devices and now you can get a system that will play with a Roon based server into the Lumin as an Roon endpoint for your music room, as well as throughtout the house via these other streaming devices.
Having an entire house with rooms of music throughtout the home is really cool, we can do this with a Lumin and a Roon server.
For this reason we end up selling a package of the Innous Zen or Zenith with the Lumin T2.
I do understand where you coming from and why you’re so eager to declare X1 as one of the best in the industry. Someday, I will put X1 to the ‘test’ once I complete my stack of Merging+Player+Power+Clock.
Lalik thank you for understanding our enthusisiam for Lumin they really do make some excellent gear. Perfect no, for everyone no but overall a great product line.
We sell products that we endorse because we feel that these are very special products, that fit into our philosophy it is very unlikely you will find us talking about products that we would just sell because we can.
You will also find in most of our discussions the reason why we recommend a particular product and why that product represents something which may be better or is unique in someway.
We do a lot of market research and that includes getting in new products all the time. and doing comparisons with our current products.
We are not the ones saying the X1 is one of the best in the industry, the industry is. we are agreeing with the rest of reviewers:
Just for your edification we are currently testing Bricasti’s new M3 which is excellent by the way, Zesto tube electronics are comming in, Hegel is back on our floor, Chord is on a possible evaluation vs our other dacs and streamers
We are bringing in the Onkk turntable from the UK looking at a German Phono stage, a line of new phono cartridges and a set of really innovative loudspeakers from the Netherlands.
Look for our new website and our new import entity in 2020 Audio Intellect
But, and here is the key thing: you are not allowing for the possibility that Lumins could be solidly beaten by something costing much less, as in the example I gave. You are essentially saying that is impossible. That is the problem people have with the schilling
FWIW, WC, the most celebrated and unbiased reviewer on Agon has endlessly raved about Esoteric dacs whereas he has also owned LUMIN and never mentions them in same light
My response to the folks who complain about Audiotroy trying to sell then you are obviously not interested in hearing from knowledgeable and intelligent audio experts. I find Dave's posts very informative. He has a view point and understanding that only a dealer can have. I called Dave a few months ago to discuss the Lumin T2. He spent a good 30 minutes with me describing how good this product is, and I believe him. After speaking with Dave I absolutely believe that he wants his customers to have the best product that will work for them not him.I am planning on buying a T2 as soon as my budget allows and I'll probably call up Audiotroy first.
For most part I do too. More good than had. Often his posts have ton of good info and I usually like reading them. Just have to call out when over the top
Dude I’m not even doubting all of those. But if someone comes in and says something half as expensive is as good as a LUMIN you will not accept it. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. You won’t know until you A/B. WC with more experience than anyone says Esoteric better than LUMIN and he’s not biased like you are as a dealer. Teac is Esoteric-lite so in theory very possible nt505 could beat T2. That’s all I’m saying. But I really do wish you’d test and report because as you mentioned you can get evaluation pieces for free- we can’t
mayoradamwest, do you seriously think anyone on this forum is unaware that Audiotroy is posting to increase his sales? Of course he is. Everyone knows that, it is completely transparent and hardly needs pointing out. Even Audiotroy admits this and very clearly discloses which products he sells and which he does not. But along the way, he also dispenses some useful information, and as long as you understand that he also has an agenda - and everyone does understand this - there is nothing wrong with this, and his posts are often informative and interesting.
And I should add that I have no connection with Audiotroy and have never dealt with him (I’m in a different country, for a start). But I do agree with him about the Lumin X1. I recently bought a Lumin X1 and it is a stunning dac. It is better IMO than the Chord DAVE/M Scaler which I have also owned, and that alone makes it worth the asking price to me.
Speaking of network players and storage devices, I'm presently living with the Sonore Signature Rendu player and think it's pretty stellar. It also earned "Gear of the Decade" so that's saying something. Don't know anything else, has anyone performed a head to head comparison with sonore/small green computer? And given their new optical to fiber upgrade, I'd think it'll be hard to beat? I was all about Aurender, but its not Roon capable, so no go for me. I heard the Innous Statement and maybe it was the setup, but I was NOT impressed as my Sonore sounds better, and we're only dating. Please enlighten me.
mayoradamwest363 posts01-05-2020 8:27pmI
don’t think most people in this thread defending Audiotroy understand
how salesman work.......
Calling people that disagree with you stupid isn't really occupying the high ground in the argument. Maybe some of us understand sales well enough to be comfortable separating the information from the pitch.
@redphu72 You are interested in the same thing as me. I tied the knot with the Sonore rendu's I think they are great and make me with my tech background happy to use them.
I imagine you have read the review by Chris
Connaker about the Lumin X1 and the Fibre input. He uses a cool looking network switch from
But along the way, he also dispenses some useful information, and as
long as you understand that he also has an agenda - and everyone does
understand this - there is nothing wrong with this, and his posts are
often informative and interesting.
+1 @rossb Fully agree with you, thanks for posting it!
FWIW, WC, the most celebrated and unbiased reviewer on Agon
I don't know if I would get so carried away here. We all have our biases. And I don't think anybody contributes here to be celebrated. There are a number of A'gon members who have contributed to these forums for 20+ years. And many have had a stable system for a year or years, with only refinements made with tube-rolling, power distribution, isolation, cabling, etc.
When such a reviewer with a stable system introduces a "new" product into the system, and gives written detail on the differences, I will sit up and pay attention. When the system is changing 2-3x a week, the comments on the differences with have minimal to little value to me. The focus must always be the System and not our infatuations with how one product is the greatest ever in its category.
has endlessly raved about Esoteric dacs whereas he has also owned LUMIN and never mentions them in same light
And the takeaway here: The reader is to assume WC simply prefers the sound of the Esoteric. And this is fine. He is expressing his own preference or bias here. Is his preference more worthy of another member's comments pro/con the Esoteric? Of course not. And for a system with constantly different amps, line stages, DACs, cables, etc, every week, this might make many readers not take his comments with much benefit.
I have been following this thread and many others related to digital streamers, servers, re-clockers, USB this, Ethernet that, etc. Time and time again, I find much value provided by the Audio Doctor team.
We are all fully aware of the salesmanship aspect of their contributions. So why let it bother anybody here? That they carry numerous lines, and many models in each these lines, gives each of us a hint into the differences as they are compared within a system that is otherwise stable. For the case that they have not compared some models directly in one system, they have commented that this will be done ....again in the context of one system; I find this of great value.
I have been a phono diehard since the late 70s. I got into the digital scene in the mid 90s, ran with the stunning Manley Ref DAC for 10 years or so and now with a Lampizator B6 which has gone through a ton of tube-rolling efforts to "match" with my system, with my biases. But I have been rather careless with the transport side of things, as I have been running with a Mac Mini for 10 years now.
This thread is making me aware of some products that I need to research for the "transport", maybe the Innuos Zenith to Phoenix to my DAC. Or will just inserting the Phoenix result in a huge sonic benefit? Again, the contributions by the Audio Doctor team is benefitting me greatly. It does not sound like Lumin is a good choice for me as I do not want an all-in-one solution. And I like what a tube DAC brings to the result. But who knows, that bias too might get chipped away.
@audiotroy I have a Lumin X1. Should I use the ´´Fiber Optic Network ´´ ? Is there a significant improvement ? Any component recommendations on that topic? thanks
@maxwave I would spend $200 and buy the Ubiquiti network switch listed in my above post. The second link for the Lumin X1 review has all the components that the reviewer used to go Fibre to his X1. It should cost you about $300-$400 for everything.
You have some other options that do not require tech savy, such as the SystemOptique from Sonore. They will get your RJ45 ethernet to Fibre so you can connect to the X1. I believe the X1 is a Roon Ready endpoint.
Maybe give the Audio Doctor a call on this, he seems to be aware of how to get Fibre from your network into the X1.
Twoch we didn't have your comment removed, Your "fact" was that everything "we sell is the best." is what you say we are promoting or claiming.
Twoch you miss the point entirely we take our position much like John Darko's site, we test alot of popular digital products from the starter level to the reference level.
On another post we advised someone on a direction for a dac with a volume control, we mentioned 3 popular product lines that we carry that we have had direct experience with. We would doubt that most dealers might have had one product in that catargory we have Lumin, Mytek, Ifi and slighly more expensive then the OP wanted to spend the Bricasti M3.
As per "best" we have never said that any of our products are the "best."
We sell many recognized brands that are all critically acclaimed and do make fantastic products.
We sell T+A electronics and their reference dac, we have Naim, NAD, NAD Masters, Nuprime, Mytek, Lumin, Innous, Bricasti, Kef, Kef Blades, Kef Reference, Paradigm, Legacy, Quad, Rega, ATC,Aqua Hifi, Micromega, Anthem, Hegel, Coda, and many, many others.
As per best again we have never said that any of our products are the best becaise we don't believe that there is a "best" in anything.
In audio as in life there are tons of valid choices, is a Mercedes Benz better than a BWM? Is an Audii is a Tesla? If you are looking at an Electric vehicle most likely your best choice is a Tesla. However in the case of a high performance sedan there are tons of great choices which is why if we feel a product or product line is interesting and it offers something our existing product lines don't we try to audition it and then if it is good we try to add that product to our offerings.
This is why we are constantly brining in new products recently we put out Hegel products, Bricasti products a new ref turtable, a new phono cart waiting for Zesto electronics,waitiing for two new speaker lines, Unison Research two intergrateds.
In the case of Lumin their products are excellent are they the "best" no, are they generally a good choice if you like their sound, and feature set then they could be a great choice for someone. Is a DCS Bartok better or a Chord Dave that will depend on what sonic profile and feature set you prefer.
From what I read here, these Lumin products seem to be the best that streaming has to offer. It appears they would be a very significant step up over my Bluesound 2i - Benchmark DAC3 setup. 😮
Is that also true for their Airplay implementation?
Would I currently use Synology 218+ to store my files. I would then best go for the U1?
^^Don’t just believe the hype, if you’re going to dump $6K in U1 then you should find a way to audition the competing streamers from Innuos, Aurender and Auralic. Bluesound is a budget but a very good streamer. I think Innuos ZENmini + LPSU will give you next level of improvement with your existing DAC. Anything beyond that, you will be spending lot more to hear appreciable improvement in sound quality.
May be audio troy can send you Lumin and Innuos for in-home audition.
jorgean, you may be confusing our enthusiasm for Lumin’s with our observations on the totality of the subject of streamers and dacs.
Yes the Lumin products are universally praised and are indeed excellent, however we have never said that their products are unbeatable or that someone might prefer the sonic signature or feature set of another product.
If you follow our posts even on this thread, we mentioned we brought in Bricasti’s new M3 dac because it has an analog volume control and digital inputs which are features that the Lumin T2 lacks, as well as an option for a headphone amp.
So if in our tests the Bricasti is better it is also alot more money to gain its sound quality and feature set.
In terms of pure streamers we sell alot of Innous severs for a couple of reasons: the first being many of our clients love the idea of Roon and being able to play with sample rate conversion and whole house audio which are things that Roon does very wel.
The second point: considering the Innous servers are designed to run Roon very well they make an excellent choice to be a Roon Core.
The third point: add to that the built in CD ripper to digitize a persons CD collection
The fourth point, the sound quality of the Innous servers is excellent.
So in the case of a streamer being added to a dac you have to see what each platform offers.
Aurenders servers are excellent however, they do not allow for upsampling or whole house audio control or eq which are features in Roon.
Naim and NAD makes decent servers but the Naim doesn’t allow for Tidal or any streaming it is just a CD library and the NAD Blue Sound Vault and 50.2 are good devices but not built to the ultimate audio quality design modality of the Aurener, Lumin and Innous products.
Hope this helps.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Lumin, Innous, NAD, Naim, dealers
Shure, each situation is different and decisions to be made in that context. I find Apple Music very convenient and therefore I use Airplay a lot. Thats why I am asking whether the benefits of a superior streamer or transport also apply to Airplay? I am very happy with the Benchmark DAC and also have a Benchmark ADC to digitize vinyls. No intention to move away. For me the upgrading of the Preamplifier brought a noticable improvement, it helped on the streaming side including Airplay aswell as on the analog side. That investment was worthwile.
For those of us who continue to play digital through a simple/conventional means, i.e., through a CD player or use a PC for music files, occasionally a streaming service, e.g., Spotify, is there still a means for such a setup to compete with all the SOTA servers of today? .... or is it pretty much time to bite the bullet and get such a server?
I have read a little about Roon on various threads and sites but I have yet to find a writeup which is detailed and concise as the the pros/cons of Roon, why does one want or need it, and can many of us skip it altogether and stay focused on other digital front-end refinements? Can some recommend ONE site/link where this is covered in such detail that such questions are answered?
@audiotroy: I prefer Apple Music over Tidal. In my opinion it offers superior user guidance / playlists. It synchronises easily with all my Apple devices. As for SQ, difficult to compare but for shure good recordings sound good on either services and bad ones will sound bad, whatever resolution. As we all know blind test have shown that human can only hear a difference if the resolution goes beyond V -2 which is below 44kHz , 192 kbit/s. Apple is well within this spec with 256 kbit/s. Listen for example to some of Allan Taylor recordings which are usually of high quality, they sound great over Airplay.
Roon, yes i did take a yearly subscription. The interface is great, very informative. I could probably find the same info in Wikipedia. As for SQ of Roon I must confess that I was disappointed, it sounded thin and liveless, compared to playing through the Bluesound App. I don‘t understand the hype, maybe I am missing something. Sounds all a bit negative, sorry for that.
Jorgern, we have done tests of 16 bit 44khz digital and then the same piece of music up-sampled up to higher frequencies and also converted to DSD as well, if you can't hear the difference you really need to do a lot more testing or your gear doesn't have the resolution.
Airplay is a good convenience but in terms of sound quality, Tidal sounds better running through Roon and being up-sampled to higher frequencies sounds way better, 24 bit 192k sounds good, on our test dacs the sound becomes airy more relaxed and the entire sound stage sounds bigger, at DSD sampling the midrange usually sounds more full and the top end all sounds a bit more rolled off in a good way.
One of the keys to running Roon is to use the DSP functions and then run the up-sampler.
As per features of Roon that people like:
1: Whole house audio you can control Sonos, Naim, Nad Blue sound, Chromecast, Apple Airplay, Heos, and many other devices all through one convenient interface with grouping and syncronization.
2: The ability to use DSD functionality to change low res digital into high res digital be it PCM or DSD.
3: Roon Radio which selects music based on what you are playing as well as selections from Tidal and Obouz.
4: Integration of stored music and streaming services
5: A superb user interface with album bio
6: Understanding the way that each artist has similar artists, artists which are impacted by the original artist, similar, following, influenced tabs which help you identify new artists.
Roon has the best music interface, Blue Sound's interface pales in comparison.
It is hard to do a write up about the pros and cons of ROON because ROON is a dynamic software system. In the sense that it is continually being updated with new features. I have been a lifetime member even before they released version 1.0 and I have seen all the new features that have been added. The best place to learn about ROON is not here but in the ROON forum.
For example, 2 recent additions are making my lifetime membership a homerun. One is the music discovery feature that was recently added. MP3 streaming services have had this before (Pandora, Apple, etc..) but ROON did not. I have both Qobuz and Tidal and my ROON clients discovery feature has recently made me add about 30 new albums. My recent favorite being Betty Davis, the female James Brown or is James Brown the male Betty Davis.
The second relatively new feature in ROON is the Convolution engine that will allow me to do DSP WITHOUT any new audio hardware. That is gold to me.
ROON is evolving and for me a gorgeous audio client with both great reliability and features.
Just to stir the pot: a lot folks who use Roon now use the Roon Nucleus straight into a USB DAC. No streamer box at all. They get all the main streaming services, the Roon Core, a more direct path to the sound and storage to their own ripped archive.
Pretty soon you might find more Nucleus style boxes with the DAC built in as well. This market is changing...
The idea of direct path is ideal but last time I checked the Nucleus box doesn’t quite hold up against top tear streaming player’s sound quality. And then there is $699 lifetime membership fee for Roon. Lot of folks I know still don’t care to use Roon for whatever reason. Both Lumin and Aurender offers app that are excellent, easy to use and they are free.
Some users love Roon and some don’t. The sandbox is plenty big enough for all.
I think there are more “bits are bits” followers in the Roon camp than there are within the traditional audiophile world. But the Roon technology and UI is attractive for many reasons. It is changing the notion of what is needed as your “source”.
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