Low Frequency Rumble from TT between songs

Thanks. Of course I have now sold it. Decided to start a Garrard project 401 and get the heck out of the VPI universe.

Beautiful setup dhcod, Thank you!

@dhcod , sorry about the late reply. I was not aware of your post.

My version of accurate has several facets. First is measurable accuracy, the stuff most audiophiles hate like the opposite political party. Frequency response, distortion of all types, signal to noise ratios. Slew rate, etc. 

Most systems fail right at the start because they do not have speakers that are reasonably flat with matching frequency responses in the room and position they are put in. It is not easy to be accurate.

The second facet is subjective but not just my opinion. Others will hear the same features and usually agree. This is the ability to produce life like images and timbre with the right recordings across the frequency spectrum. A system that performs at this level will impress nine of ten lay people. If the people are very use to hearing live instruments that climbs to ten out of ten.  I have seen the reactions to several such systems and they were extremely similar in content. 

The problem for most of us, whether we believe it or not is that we do not fully understand or relate to what we have not experienced. Very few systems perform at this level and price is no indication at all. Go listen to a string quartet live. You want to put that in your media room. That is why I use "live" as a reference. You can not use anything else as a reference because most systems do not perform at this level and are a maze of compounded errors. It is also easier to hear a live performance than it is any one particular system. You want to know how a piano should sound? Go see a solo McCoy Tyner concert at a small jazz bar. 

Do you have photos of them installed?

No, it was these:

Feet

Are these the Isolation feet you installed on your VPI turntable? VPI Prime, Scout, Super Prime & Signature 3" Height Adjustable Turntab – Mnpctech 

Accurate to what, though? What you think an instrument sounds like in a vacuum or what you think an instrument sounds live or what I hear when an instrument is actually recording in the studio? Or some other measure? You seem to describing an absolute without identifying the standard.

@dhcod , that is all fluffy subjective garbage. 

What I am trying to impress people like dhcod with is this is not subjective, it's what I like to hear stuff. That is an excuse to validate inferior equipment. There is accurate reproduction and there is everything else. There in only one accurate. Any deviation from accurate is inaccurate.   People think that because accuracy is hidden from everyone that they can make up any definition of what accurate is, a definition that is of their liking. Sorry, doesn't work for me. Accuracy can be found but it takes a kind of persistence most of us do not have. Nor do they really want to. They have more important things to do. 

Dear @dhcod  : Agree  with  @mijostyn . All of us are " accustom " ti some kind of room/system developed distortions and you like the ones coming from those tubes. Nothing wrong with that because is what you like.

R.

It left me missing air and walls. As someone who often records live instruments tangential to the music industry, the 300B comes closest to recreating the instrument AND the room that the music is being played in, which makes for more accurate reproduction of a setting. Digital playback can be music in a vacuum which to my ears doesn't sound like life.

It left you missing distortion. Isn't it a strange life?

Just to follow up, the issue was isolation. I was able to get rid of the noise completely with a set of MNPCtech feet and some small rollerblocks under the motor pod. 

Also the First Watt is not as pleasing as a SET amp, no way. It does a lot of things really well but it left me missing the 300Bs.

This sounds very much like a worn bearing issue.  I was pleasantly surprised when I had my VPI bearing worked on some years ago.

I'm guessing you are writing about a used Aires.  Am I correct?  Do you know how old it is?  The bearings of VPI TTs need to be worked on on a regular basis.

First is the need for lubrication.  Is your bearing inverted?  Or non-inverted?

Next is the possible need for the replacement of the ball and thrust plate.  Have you inspected these?

Tubes of certain types tend to be microphonic.  For example, every 6SN7 is microphonic to some degree.  The trick is to find those that are less microphonic than average, or better yet to move your amplifier around the room.  In any case, it is not totally surprising that a new set of tubes does not definitively cure the problem.  Tube dampers can help too. Also, First Watt are great, be happy.

I had the same thought about microphonic tubes but I swapped in a whole new tube set and no change. I should borrow another tube amp just to test that as well although I'm pretty excited about the First Watt SIT-3 I just bought.

Some tube or tubes in your SE amplifier is/are microphonic. Tube damper(s) might help to reduce the magnitude of the  noise to tolerable levels.

Just to follow up in case anyone is interested. The low frequency rumble is being picked up by the SET amp I'm using. It's in a weird bass trap spot. It goes away when I swap amps to SS. I'm plugging in a subsonic filter tomorrow to see if that helps and if there's a sound penalty. 

SPL sure builds beautiful components. I would think that engaging a notch filter would change the sound presentation. If not, why wouldn’t all companies have full time rumble filters?  This would make turntable design a bit more relaxed.

SPL Phono Pre will eliminate this. 

It's definitely a low frequency sound wave, not a rumble, not surface or groove noise.  I'm going to try a suspended turntable just to see if that would be a potential solution. I

Since all records have rumble prior to reaching the musical grooves, then it seems to me that you either need to repair the drive mechanism, or get a new turntable. I have a Technics 1200G and don’t detect any audible rumble from the turntable.

For me..I would not add a rumble filter.

I think this is something you will have to live with, with these speakers, but you may be able to reduce it. Is it "groove noise", rather than rumble? All turntables have some of it. Comes with the vinyl medium.

Over ten years, I turned down the groove noise and improved the sound on my VPI HW-19, upgraded mk 2 to 5, ending up with a pyramid arrangement - stone rack, sand box plus air tube plus ceramic cones, beneath the VPI. With the magnetic bearing in the Hanss T30 turntable, no pyramid needed, the feet can rest directly on the shelf, and these problems were greatly reduced.

No. Some are less than others but they all have it.

Are there any quiet records (no rumble) on the lead out groove?

I'm using Edensound TerraCones on my Aries. The Townshend is about $1k for my table. Pretty steep.

Which feet are you using on the Aries?

Which wall shelf? Make sure your wall shelf platform is level and all contact points have even pressure. If all is well, a simple but not inexpensive solution is a Townshend component platform, if it’ll fit on your wall shelf. Another plus, you can always use it under another component in your system.

Do you hear the rumble just turning on the VPI player (on high volume), or only when the stylus is in the record groove?

No. Only when the needle is on the surface of the LP.

missioncoonery

1,106 posts

07-12-2022 at 11:24am

Have you considered a dac?

Your disdain for analog is almost as annoying as your frequent childish rants about a certain speaker company.  Remember which forum you find yourself in.

Give it a break......

Do you hear the rumble just turning on the VPI player (on high volume), or only when the stylus is in the record groove?

If I place the turntable on it, will it decrease the feedback?

Have you considered a dac?

It's definitely different on every record but still there on everything. 

I tried moving the speakers away from the table and that for sure lessens the sound. It's clearly an interaction between the two components. The bad part is we live in a small place and the speakers can't be moved and neither can the turntable. 

Are some turntable less susceptible to this interaction. I'm using a VPI Aries 1. What type of table should I try? Suspended? Idler? Or is the cartridge picking up the sound so it doesn't matter?

@dhcod , acoustic feedback occurs at a specific frequency and is a steady tone typically described as a howl. 

Rumble is very low frequency and lumpy for lack of a better term. It is low frequency garbage for either the bearing of your turntable or the bearing of the lathe that cut the Lacquer your record was produced from. If it is your turntable it will be consistent and occur with every record. If it only occurs with some records and not others the fault lies with the manufacturer of the record. 

You hear it now because your new speakers are capable of reproducing those very low frequencies. Rumble is one of the banes of vinyl reproduction like scratches, ticks and pops.

Yeah, it  wouldn't be rumble. Acoustic feedback. But the table's been in the system for a couple years but the speakers have been here for 3 months and the noise only started a few weeks ago. Driving me nuts trying to figure it out. 

Rumble is different than acoustic feedback. Rumble is noise from the turntable usually related to the bearing and can indicate a lack of sufficient lubrication or an issue with a worn bearing. Acoustic feedback is caused by bass energy being transmitted to the turntable system which results in a roar that builds upon itself getting louder and louder until you lower the volume. Acoustic feedback can be addressed by better isolation for the table like a wall shelf usually provides. What you're describing sounds like rumble, but if it's only on certain records it can be in the recording or on a worn record. The Harbeths may not have reproduced such low frequency info like your larger speakers do which made the rumble audible. Check the platter bearing of your table for proper lubrication or any abnormal play or wobble, and if it's belt drive also check the motor bearing.