i do not know about the formulation but whether it is H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) or water infused with Ozone O3, both of these agents are strong oxidizers. The will assist in removing some oils and greases and even some inorganic compounds but they also will tend to breakdown the vinyl with repeated use. There are a lot of strings about cleaning formulations from homegrown to sophisticated commercial applications but the basics of cleaning will always remain simple. Water (the purity makes a difference) plus surfactants/dispersants to lift/emulsify the "dirt", mechanical, thermal, or chemical actions to get the cleaning solution into the groove and between the vinyl and dirt, and systems to rinse/dry the water/cleaner/dirt mixture. Most of the commercial systems have more hype and sales pitch than the homegrown solutions but all can be effective. I have used many of the commercial solutions and typically come back to my own homegrown solution. The greatest improvement in advancing cleaning records in my opinion are the carbon fiber or nylon microbrushes, I have not tried the walker system (enzyme) so I can not comment on whether it is a breakthrough, but nothing will ever replace plain ole scrubbing the record. It will work with the good commercial solutions as well as the home grown ones |
Albert, actually, it was. But, it was written in jest. My initial thread's question was rhetorical as I thought I was pretty smart. As it turns out, that's not the case. I really didn't take offense to your answer. It just took me by surprise. |
Great, you eat what you want and I'll eat what I want. |
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Pbb,
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Sadly, you expounding upon that of which have not a clue...and neither does your venerable Roy Gandy.
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If you have not spent a good amount of time doing comparisons with cleaning methods (including the better cleaning solutions, RCM's and possibly steam) than you should not waste your time or space on the forum spouting your ignorance.
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I dare say Nrchy is a rather open minded, kind hearted, generous, and intelligent man. You seem to be none of the above.
Rgds,
Larry
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Pawlowski6132 Well, I guess that shut me up.' I hope that was not attributed to me, I try NOT to offend anyone. The value of Audiogon forums is the exchange of information. There is no way any one of us has time to experiment with every combination available. Your comment sparked a response and mine is just one mans opinion. I often read comments that help me, lets keep the ideas flowing. |
I saw some of the equipment you have anarchy and wouldn't call anyone wrong if I were you! If I'm wrong at least I'm not alone since Roy Gandy of Rega (who knows more about turntables than you, I dare say) is of the opinion that the obsession with cleaning vinyl albums is just that. For good measure, he also thinks that the other obsession about adjusting VTA is a waste of time. It seems that insulting me is just par for the course for you. You are a vey insecure man, I'm afraid... |
Reading the original post, I think "adding a third oxygen to water..." is not what Emailists intended. Looks like whatever this product is, it is generating ozone (O3). O3 is a powerful oxidizer. Stronger than chlorine. It would be present as a dissolved gas in the water. It is extremely reactive and short-lived, however. Typically, ozone has to be generated at the point of use. It's doubtful you can buy a solution of ozonated water and expect to find any O3 after a few days - let alone months. Drinking water can be ozonated to provide initial disinfection (e.g., bottled drinking water) but in municipal water supplies ozonation doesn't provide a persistent residual that will make it to the tap in your house. Other disinfectants are used for that (e.g.,chloramines). If the Tersano system generated ozone in water "on demand" - that might give you enough time to use a solution for cleaning LPs. BUT ozone is very tough on elastomeric AND other materials. It would be a good idea to ask what residual (typically expressed in 'parts per millions')is produced and further what effects this will have on vinyl, especially if multiple cleanings of the same LP are performed. |
If a 'final rinse' with pure water is meant by 'wet cleaning' and that the rinse in fact just carries away the debris, then a dry rinse could serve the same purpose, i.e. an air rinse using high pressure air.
Of course removing debris from the vinyl surfaces improves sound - it just seems that one needn't use a 'wet' system to do that. A good brush and a good stream of air should do for a new record! Much less chance of damaging the vinyl, also.
Bob P. |
'Wet' cleaning doesn't necessarily imply cleaning only with water. Nrchy made it clear water was the 3rd step in a multistep process."
Other than water, I'd be curious to know what other liquid base he's using in the first two steps. I don't know what Nate's answer will be, but in my case the other liquid is Premier, a product of Micro Care. This is the only product other than the original "First" by Nitty Gritty that dissolves mold release and other contaminates in one application. First was banned by the EPA many years ago, I have only one bottle left that I keep as a reference against other cleaners. Premier is based on Vertrel, a Dupont substitute for Freon that seems to be equally effective and yet safe for the environment (as far as we currently know). Like First, Premier should be followed by Record Research, Lloyd Walkers cleaner, Audio Intelligent or whatever you're currently supporting as best. In any case, there is no doubt that removing debris from old and new LP's improves sound. This was true with my Nitty Gritty, which was clearly beaten by my VPI 17F and improved again when I upgraded to the Odyssey RCM, which is basically a hot rod version of the Keith Monks, but built in Germany. |
Threaders: Instead of some of you acting as flat-earth types, pull the blinders off. If you wish to trash that you know noting off ... really that is a problem of comittment and education to the analog hobby.
For instance, I suspect that most drink soda never giving a twit that the water in that can has undergone millions of $$$$ in research and modification so the product you buy in Upper New York State and Texas has a similar taste. How about Power Plants ? Most never even think about the manufacture of super pure water supplies to keep the AC flowing. Open-up tight-one. The Lotus Cleaning System may be just as valid as Ivory Soap. No flaming intended and none should be sent. |
OP made a slight misstep in describing the process. From what I can tell the Tersano is a water ozonator, it generates ozone (03) in water and uses it as a cleaner / sterilant.
This should be very effective as long as the substrate (the vinyl) is ozone resistant. PVC is one of the materials of choice used in ozonation systems because of its ozone resistance, since we don't know what else there is in a given vinyl formulation the rest is up to chance.
Mark Kelly
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Well, I guess that shut me up. |
"'Wet' cleaning doesn't necessarily imply cleaning only with water. Nrchy made it clear water was the 3rd step in a multistep process."
Other than water, I'd be curious to know what other liquid base he's using in the first two steps. |
Maybe we can get some 'heavy water' and test that, too. Oh, what we will do to put maddnes to work. |
E/M : The idea that you propose is "Very Interesting" to steal a tag line from a 1960's TV show. The interesting thing about vinyl is that the compounds used for pressing may or may not be organic in nature. Most in the industry here and across the pond just will not tell.
A few years ago I spent an interesting ( there's that word again) evening drinking Calfornia wine with a henna streaked/ravin haired, blue eyed German beauty, Martina, who had been doing research for years into the origins of LP vinyl compounds. What she didn't know about the materials , chemicals and one little known secret -- Almost to a person the LP compound developers kept the formula's in their heads not on paper. One thing besides ... that she left me with was a fact she learned --Many vinyl compounds suceed keeping LPs flexable for years by entraping small amounts of H20 in the vinyl and pressing compounds. She suspected that rehydrating vinyl was a key to keeping the groves alive with music while at the same time sluffing off old degraded pressing muck so that what the listener hears is the actual vinyl not stuff entrapped by the manufacturing process or time. So, if the cleaning process triggers the release of micro-amounts of H2O from the LP that maybe not such a good idea. But you will not know for sure unless you experiment. E/M ,stop-bye the steam cleaning thread maybe we have an idea or two to complement yours. |
I'm convinced anyone who feels dry cleaning is as effective
as wet cleaning has never taken the time to listen and compare. Conversely, I've never known anyone who used a wet cleaning system that ever went back to simple dry brushing. New records, in my experience, benefit significantly from being wet cleaned.
This is an old argument. I'm not sure why I'm even responding. People believe what they believe and many are not open to having that belief challenged. |
"Wet" cleaning doesn't necessarily imply cleaning only with water. Nrchy made it clear water was the 3rd step in a multistep process.
The non-water soluble contaminants on new vinyl are removable with water-based solutions containing other active ingredients. The final pure water rinse simply removes trace residues of those cleaning solutions, and perhaps "dirt" that was loosened by them but not quite removed.
IOW, I agree with Nrchy.
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Huh, a third O2 molecule to water? I thought water had only one oxygen ATOM and that hydrogen peroxide had two ATOMS, so I was wondering how some one comes up with a third MOLECULE of oxygen??
Even oxygenating water doesn't introduce a third molecule, just a second molecule of oxygen to the first molecule of water.
NRCHY, I think that wet cleaning of new vinyl is not any better than dry cleaning, since the 'dirt' products to which you refer aren't water soluble. |
I just got some new cleaning fluid at RMAF that uses ultra pure water for a third, or rinse stage. I'm curious though about how an extra oxygenated water would do, if anything. A third, or odd numbered oxygen molecule would make it a free radical, wouldn't it?
New vinyl is often the dirtiest of all especially with the new mold-releases used. Dry brushing as always, does nothing to eliminate them. Pbb, true to form is wrong again...
O
o
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What is wrong with dry cleanig lps with a carbon brush and calling it a day? Wet cleaning probably creates more problems than it solves. My comments apply to new vinyl. I have no idea hat one has to go through with grungy old used vinyl. |
Have you considered the Bissel Spotbot - it is amazing!!! Water spray (with special Oxy water and formulas), brush and vaccuum up dirt all in a handy portable device (no mess).
The bonus is that it can clean carpets too! Great if you have pets. |
