Oops I omitted the Allinc A6000 monoblocks from system ...
LONDON Decca, Tzar DST and similar cartridges
I have always been curious about these phono cartridges and the Stereophile review of the Tzar DST has heightened my interest. When I read about the peculiarities of these cartridges, I am put off from trying them. Can anyone offer persuasive reasons to try them and also provide real practical advice on how to make them work reliably? Tonearm suggestions? Phono preamp suggestions? Damping recommendations? How badly do they grind out record grooves? Any other words of advice? Thanks.
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Nice system, Howard. I'm at the low end of all this wonderful gear. (See my system in my profile) I've had a Decca Super Gold since the 80s on an LP12 where it was eventually relegated to the bottom of the drawer. It's since been rejuvenated with a Decapod and the same stylus as used in the LDR, and vanquished of malady by installing it on a slate plinthed and heavily modded Garrard 401. I've also acquired two other treasured Garrott Brothers' cartridges. |
FR-7fc is indeed very rare, but only this model in entire FR-7 range has 0.65 mil CONICAL TIP at the same time higher retail price in 1981 according to this page. But the output at their comparison chart is incorrect for some models, so i will add correct info: *The best cartridge in FR-7 series is FR-7fz (not 7fc) The "fz" has a Line Contact stylus tip and 0.24mv output, 5 Ohm impedance. The "fc" has Conical tip and 0.2mV output, 2-3 Ohm impedance The "f" has 0.15mm square shank Contact Line stylus and 0.15mV output, 2-3 Ohm impedance. My advice is to upgrade to FZ When i did that from F to FZ it was noticeable. For what its worth I’d rank the FR7fc as the second best, coming closest to the musicality of the LDR. I believe you did not rank it as NUMBER ONE only because your FC has a conical tip, i'm sure when you will try FZ with Line Contact stylus it will be nearly impossible to find a better cartridge at any price if you have Fidelity-Research 64s or 64fx tonearm for this monster. |
@chakster https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cartridge-shoot-out-koetsu-jade-v-spu-v-fr7-v-london-referenc... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/hear-my-cartridges?page=5 scroll down for the LDR/7fz recordings that you can compare yourself |
@bydlo Oh, i see from your link: Fidelity Research FR 7 fz not long returned from the Expert Stylus Company with a new cantilever and Paratrace stylus. Another Frankenstein, not the original FR-7Fz but refurbished in UK cartridge, so i am not even interested to read more. I use only original cartridges. What i am trying to say in the post above is that 7fc with Conical tip can’t surpass the 7fz with Line Contact for obvious reason. They are also different internally (impedance and output). |
Kinda lost touch with this Thread.....🙃 Just made a little 'soundbite' of the Decca to remind everyone just how good this cartridge is.... If you've ever listened to one of the famous Mercury Living Presence records with any of the dozen or so current uber-priced LOMC Cartridges....chances are you might have gritted your teeth during the high-frequency crescendos/climaxes cut into the lacquer during the mastering process. The LDR manages to decipher and unravel these pressings in a realistic and non-fatiguing performance. LONDON DECCA REFERENCE When all is said and done.....for those audiophiles hesitant about testing the world of 'Vintage' (Used) cartridges and with $5,000-$20,000 to spend......I can think of no better sounding current new cartridge. And for $5,000.....as the Reviewers like to say.....it's a real bargain 😝 |
@chakster Don't get me wrong, I'm not into "mine is bigger" business :) I've been recently on the market for a cartridge after I had learned that my modified FR7f (boron cantilever + Shibata diamond) has been modified pretty poorly (deformed innards). FR7fz was a natural candidate but after some investigation, and more importantly listening (thank you Halcro!!), I've decided to go for LDR. I'll be setting it up next weekend. |
@bydlo
I have nothing against LDR, i have another cantilever-less cartridge, but it is LOMC Ikeda 9 III I know many people on this forum that constantly re-tipping and refurbishing their cartridges, if it’s fine for them i have no problem with it. Personally i collect NOS or Mint condition original cartridges only. I already have LOMC cartridges with Boron Pipe cantilevers (just different cartridges), so i don’t want to destroy a decent original design and transform it into something strange by adding to the Fidelity-Research a Boron cantilever or even different diamond. Same about any other cartridge from my personal collection. Maybe i am alone here, but in my vision a cartridge designer like Ikeda-San (RIP) know better which cantilever and stylus must be attached to his cartridge, seriously, he could add whatever type of cantilever, but his final decision was made already and we have FR-7fz. I don’t buy broken cartridges, so i have no interest in refurbishing and re-tipping. I can buy NOS cartridge, the original. Vintage cartridges are more affordable for me, so i am not interested in very expensive new cartridges they are not easy to replace with another sample for the price i can pay for a vintage NOS. However, last year i bought Miyajima Kansui NOS for a funny price. This is probably my last new cartridge. I think i will continue with vintage cartridges. I have so many different combination of sound in my system (i have about 7 toneamrs, many phono stages, suts, headamps etc ... even 5 different turntables) that i will never take seriously is any online review or comparison of the carts in some other people systems 9different than mine) by videos etc. It is a tricky game. I know for sure that even if i will change one component in a chain (like phono stage for example) the sound coming from the same cartridge will be completely different. I only trust what i hear myself in my system. Because some of the components i am using are not conventional design (for example current source power amp from Nelson Pass, current injection phono stage from 47 Labs), also i am not interested in any system with crossovers or low efficient speakers, high power amps - this is all not my cup of tea, but it is ok for others. We are all different and each system is different. |
Congratulations Bydlo, on your (soon to be installed) LDR 🎉 I'm glad my videos were able to help in your decision..... Just be patient with it and give it time and attention. Like a petulant new girlfriend, you'll have to give a little for her to give a little until you're both cemented in what could be a permanent relationship 👄❤️ Hope to hear some encouraging reports from you after your first 'date' 😝 |
I have one practical question on how to speak to this petulant girl. Which protractor types do you use? I have a Mint protractor for my FR64s. Since LDR has no cantilever, is is still possible to use it to find the correct angle? Another tool I have is a copy of a Dennesen protractor (admitedly never used it, relying solely on Mints). Any tips :) ? Thank you |
Thanks Noromance.....😃 You wrote a few years ago advising against graphite headshells. What changed your mind?Good question..... I made the common mistake of audiophiles in 'assuming' that my experiences with carbon-fibre (not graphite) in the playback system (mats, tonearms) would apply to headshells as well....🤗 When I actually tried the Yamamoto HS-4 Carbon Fiber in my system....I realised I had been wrong.....🙃 Are you still having the same issues with your HS-4 headshell....? |
I use the UNI-protractor for all my cartridge set-ups except with the DV-507/II which comes with its own easy-to-use Overhang Gauge. I don't think you should have trouble with the Mint..... Presumably Yip prepared it with the P to S distance of 250mm rather than the 251.5mm recommended by Dietrich Brakemeier....? And he normally sets it to Baerwald (Löfgren A)...so just ensure your P to S is as accurate as you can get it. Good luck. |
@halcro Of course, I meant carbon fibre not graphite. I returned the Yamamoto CF headshell so I can’t experiment further. The bass was better delineated but the upper mids, highs and air were attenuated. That's a no-no for me. If I get a tax rebate, I may try the Arche. It is expensive but it has sterling feedback. |
@chakster, re the FR7 series I actually have the basic FR7, the FR7fz (that you refer to), a “one off “ which is stamped “PW-1” as well as the FR7fc. In my system the FR7fc and the “PW-1” shade it ahead of the fz (which is itself a big upgrade on the basic FR7). To my ears the fc is just more musical, like an mc version of the London Reference. Of course my ears could probably also do with an upgrade, but sadly I’m stuck with them ! |
To any LDR fettlers, my continuing odyssey into its set up continues. For a while I ran it in my FR66s at 2.0 gms and no anti skate. i now run it at 1.82 gms with a tiny amount of bias (on the FR using the small weight at just a little in from the minimum setting) and I think it’s better- more texture and delicacy without any loss of tracking ability. On the Hi Fi news test record the results are : lateral test - the cartridge shakes (badly !) at 7hz; vertical test - same shake at 15 hz. Those tests are not affected by VTF. i use the Arche headshell - it may be OCD but the titanium headshell screws they also sell helped with the LR - I guess “ every little helps ...” |
@halcro I asked Yip for 231.5mm alternative distance. The UNI I believe is an evolved version of the Dennesen (I have Nerva audio copy, very well made!). I also have an alternative protractor made to order by late Wally Malewicz (sadly was his last job). I guess I'll start with Mint which I know best. Got the point with setting P2S as precisely as possible, thanks! |
@edgware - I bought the FR7 “PW-1” from a Japanese seller on eBay (touching wood I’ve only had positive experiences so far buying like that ...); According to him the “PW” stood for “professional world”, as in Fidelity Research made one offs for radio stations or that sort of thing. I’ve no idea if that’s actually the case or just an educated guess, but that’s what he said. Sonically it’s really good, I immediately preferred it to the FR 7 and FR7 fz I already had when I got it as it seemed a bit more refined in the high frequency range - more airy on the midrange too. It must have a lower output (like the fc) as it produces less volume. If I can figure out how to post a photo I’ll put one on. |
This is for you Bydlo....to keep you going till your LDR arrives 😃 I run mine at the recommended 1.8Gm (2/3 Static Force, 1/3 Dynamic) with a modicum of Antiskate 🤏 This shows the versatility of the LDR to 'rock' despite the often disruptive interference of Phil Spector.... LONDON DECCA REFERENCE |
@howardalex, a while ago there was some talk on this forum about 'special' FR7's with unbelievable specs. Very rare and perhaps aimed at the professional market, as you suggest. In any case, it appears you are in possession of something truly special! The FZ version is usually quoted as the best of the regular models, but I have come to prefer the MC 702. Another peculiar and rare one, apparently the last of the FR7's and supposedly aimed at the European market. Whatever the case may be, it is exquisite. |
FR7 series I actually have the basic FR7, the FR7fz (that you refer to), a “one off “ which is stamped “PW-1” as well as the FR7fc. Interesting, I realized you have all the big guns already, great! I gave up on "fc" since i have "fz" (and "f" before). My current injection phono stage transfered my FR-7fz to another level, compared to conventional pnono stages, hedamps and SUTs. |
I'm after my first date with LDR. It replaced a (modded) FR7f on my FR64s arm. Well... At some moment I've found myself standing and conducting together with Zubin Mehta leading Israelis...to my memory this has not happened to me before....;) Very direct, with a huge emotional potential, can go from soft sweet whisper to absolute drama in nanoseconds. Listening briefly to Bruckner 8 under Wand I got really scared. Bass....haven't heard such a powerful bass control before, fabulous heights (Joan Sutherland singing Haendel is the best test). Unlike some report, soundstage, or rather headstage in my case as I listen on headphones, did not get narrower. Its there, as big as the recording calls with great 3D imaging. But the girl is moody as hell - any mistake (scratches, dirt, dust, surface noise, etc) is immediately thrown into your face. Did mistrack once (buzz in the right channel) but surprisingly not on a loud and complex passage which it handles easily and emotionally. To the opposite. Collects dust like if it was a jewelery. These are my initial impressions after only about 3-4h listening. Problems so far: i) hum - not annoying but clearly there; comes from the EMT930 motor and (to a lower extend) the strobo lamp; with the TT off all dead quiet; I run TT ungrounded, probably grounding it could help; in general EMT930 is not a quiet TT, I think I also slightly hear the platter rotation ii) a slight feeling sometimes that the right channel is a bit deadened; the balance does not shift to the left but the right channel a bit "sleeps"; my setup is v crude so probably VTA/anti-skate needs more play (azimuth measured v good). The setup (1st attempt): FR64S on EMT930, Orsonic AV101 headshell with Ikeda silver wires, AQ Leopard into DIY EAR834 phono. 1) Vertical geometry: VTF at 1.85g, VTA - the cart top parallel to the record surface (set by eye, waiting for a VTA block to do it better). This resulted in the arm back going quite up and giving me a headache to properly set the height of the EMT arm lift that I'm using (that was the biggest pain in the whole setup!!) The London leaflet says to keep the arm parallel but then the cart top surface is quite slanted. Azimuth set using a mirror and then 800-20k Ortofon Test LP sweeps. 2) Horizontal geometry: Although completely unsupported by alignment tools I know, I followed the crowd and aimed at the alternative 231.5mm P2S distance. Getting it off EMT930 is tricky, I have a custom made collar with an off-center hole. After much sweating I was able to come close, some 231mm probably. The best what could be done. The P2S was set using Nerve Audio copy of the Dennesen protractor. The overhang was set using both Dennesen and custom made MINT (for 231.5mm of course). Orsonic headshell did not make my life easier as it has v short slots. Pulling the cart all the way back and removing the rubber gasket of AV101 (anyway recommended by FR64s manual) made it possible to be spot on with both Dennesen and MINT. Angular alignment was done with Dennesen and sort of cross checked with MINT. In lieu of the cantilever, I was aligning the stylus image with the MINT cross lines.Anti-skate - first set to about 2g, then decreased to 1.5g without much effects. Have to learn and experiment more. Especially to improve tracking and perhaps that slight right channel "sleeping". 3) Electrical: 47.5k standard load. I'll wait some 20h to beak in and then play with the load. Now it sounds very good, perhaps I wouldn't mind having a bit more body but that can also be my electrostats. All in all I'm very happy with this "drama queen" :) THis is what I've been looking for - a direct, hard reading no-mercy cart |
@bydlo Good read. Congrats. I tweak VTA by ear and lock it in when it sounds best - and I usually end up with the arm higher at the back. It will snap into focus within a small range so don't be afraid to experiment. My records must be clean because I do not get much fluff on the stylus. I drop and lift a few times into a Mr. Muscle pad every side. Pays dividends in diamond life. |
@noromance Thanks! I have to learn properly how to set VTA by ear. It's a pain in my EMT setup but looks like I cannot avoid it. Is LDR very sensitive here? BTW confirmed with Brian that cart top should be parallel not the arm. My vinyls ale cleaned with both ultrasonic and suction plus I brush before dropping the needle, but it still catches longish thin dust "hairs". Good to know Mr Muscle (aka Magic eraser) can be used with LDR, thanks! Was asking Brian but he mentioned only soft brush. Do you know if ultrasonic cleaners like AT637 can also be used? |
Yeah, the low ride can pick up fluff but I find that the stylus picks up a lot less than cantilever-based cartridges. Agreed on the soft brush -you don’t want to damage the tieback cord or worse. No idea about the AT637 but can't imagine there'd be an issue. I sent a well-used 6 year old SG to JW for work and he told me the stylus was not worn. This is a testament to the Magic Eraser and clean records. |
I find the loading setting to sound best for my Deccas at 47k.* Lower values, while recommended, took some life away. It could be argued that I am not damping a resonance in the presence region but... *I experimented and found that using 51k Vishay Z-foil resistors brings greater clarity, air, blackness and enhanced the color of vocals and instruments. You might also try 100k and 1Meg as I have heard it sounds good there too. |
@noromance Re R load, in my usual procedure, I first experiment with Dale RN60 and when I find the correct value I replace with a Z-foil (or actually Charctroft). Before placing I burn the resitors with a modulated pink noise for 3 days. Great resistors! ATM, I do not miss clarity but a bit of the body but I’ll wait until the cart burns in before any load changes (I’ll only change now the input RCA’s to WBT silver ones plus silver wiring from them to the input cart selector of my phono; this way will have a fully silver path from cart to the input tube grid). |
Went through another fine tuning session with my DLR. Unfortunately at the moment my system is not where I live so I have access to it only every 2-3 weeks :( I keep beeing amazed by the cart. VTA - used a VTA block to check the cart top was parallel and gave it a tiny bit of a negative angle (tail down). Gave more body and volume to the sound, v nice! Changed the London supplied steel screws to Transcendent Frequencies titanium ones, the same length as London’s. The VTF decreased quite a lot by some 0.7g. After compensating and checking the alignment with a copy of the Dennesen protractor (Nerve Audio) did not detect any difference. Might...MIGHT be the sound went a tiny bit more direct but that could be my fantasy. Hum - f...k it, didn’t bother to ground the EMT930 to see if it disappear. Doesn’t bother me once the music start playing. Anti skate - tried all the range from 0.5g to 2.5g on two test records (HiFi News and Clearaudio). No...NO..change in tracking ability of any sort. Nothing, nada. It misstracked exactly the same way and in the same places both on 0.5g, 2,5g and in between. DLR is not a torture track champ but who cares? Multiple atempts to visually examine if the diamond leans to the center or to the outside when lowered gave nothing either - it stays straight. Set AS to minimal on my FR64s. To do: 1) Change the RCA sockets and the input MM wiring on my DIY EAR834 phono to WBT silver and solid core Ag wire. All bought, have to burn it in first before soldering in. 2) After some 20h more (30h total) will start playing with the load (now 47,5k) but honestly don’t feel any need now. Will try to measure the capacitance input tube to cart pins and perhaps add a silver mica cap to bring up to the London recommended. Great journey! |