@rocray that video is what caused me to buy the premium matched Psvane CV181 MKII set which comes with the harder case box with foam encasing inside for each tube vs. the paper thin individual box versions sold to dealers in large lot boxes. While that video was said to be an ultra-peak busy day, it gives imagination of what a chaotic sorting center can be like there. I tracked my last package deliberately, it sat in facilities around there for 4-5 days before it went onto a plane over the pond into the USA. Was scanned over 20 times from origin to destination to give u an idea. Shipping damage a likely culprit on D.O.A tubes. TJFM concluded this too a few years ago so they started doing even better packing and boxing since.
BTW: guessing over 120hrs on the PSV 181 MKIIs, as transparent as can be now.
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@lowrider57 oh, yes...that’s right... I do remember my local dealer mentioning that fact about the tubes that go to Peter at AN are more tightly matched.I’m sure he pays extra for it too. I had forgotten about that fact as I myself have resorted to seeking closer matched triode pairs in the premium boxes with test papers keeping my fingers crossed they might be a few % better and might last a tad bit longer now that I’m tube rolling less any more. These newer gen tubes are "good enough" for me and sounding nice. .
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@lowrider57 only the last two pairs of small signal 12ax7 and driver tubes and this last quad of cv181s / 6SN7s were true premium boxed sets. The former Full Music 6SN7s were supposed to be premium match quads, two sets. Time will tell.
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@aricaudio ...I have tried the PsVane CV-181 (6SN7) TII which are very similar, if not identical to the ’guang Treasure CV-181.
Hi Aric, do you recall how many hours you put on the psvane before they settled in and your final conclusions were made on their sound?
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Early Update:
@rocray During early burn-in first 75hrs the PSVANE CV181-TII do offer a slightly unique sound compared to my best vintage or Fullmusic 6SN7s. Super Easy to listen to right now with lossless streaming on R2R DAC, so far. Sitting in my Cary SLP-98 preamp (wider tube glass base barely fits). As new, requires 60 min play for the SLP-98 warmup then it opens up. Sorta liking the midrange tone better than my best vintage 6SN7 tubes. More similar to Fullmusic 6SN7 sound, maybe a tad smoother on top, soundstage opens up even more at 120 minutes warmup of ’98 for whatever reason, i dont know. Needs more burn-in / cycling on off settling time though. Not disliking them yet, staying put. We will see. Will decide more at 100hrs burn-in. My FullMusic 6SN7s warmed up faster (set point?) after 100hrs burn-in for whatever reason. Simply trusting my ears at this point.
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@aricaudio fwiw, I followed a long 2-year case study on asian overseas DOA tubes. Went a different route on buying more direct and original packaging. Not buying from the lots removed and repackaged by US distributors or dealers when I can help it. Three quads and three paired sets later, (0) zero failures on arrival.
Knock on wood, two years play time on TJFMs, one year on small PSVanes, hoping the CV181-TIIs hold up too.. Bought the Premium Pairs in the hard cases with foam inserts, direct. Not the flimsy thin boxes, getting repacked and resold in the US. We'll see if the theory pays off here too. Sounding very nice right now, no euphonics. Smoother and less grainy than my very best 60's Sylvania vintage triple hole black pates. We'll see how it goes a year from now after long use.
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@rocray I keep waiting for the “honeymoon” period to end, but it’s not.
That's awesome. Good to know. Keep on keeping us posted. Thanks!
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@lowrider57 I have. Now using Psvane 12aU7 and 12aT7 MkIIs made in 2020/2021. They are installed now in two mono tube amplifiers.
Bought them to set my vintage nos Mullard Blackburns aside in storage. After the psvanes settled in a bit I kept telling myself I’d let them play a while longer. One time in the last year i reinstalled my other best curve-tracer matched triode Mullards back in play. That lasted a week, and i went back to the Psvane MkIIIs. I was looking for something smooth, not lean, and they fit the bill for the sound I wanted.
Prior, i had tried some older premium box pairs a colleague sent me, dated way back to 2013 I think it was, and they did not sound good to me On a whim, i re-tried the latest 2021+ version I have now. Sounded nice. Not bright, smooth, not overly detailed. Had tried vintage EI Yugo, RCA, GE, Tungsram, and newer JJ, new re-issue Mullard (not real Mullards) along with various original vintage mid to late 60s, and early 70s Mullards. Still have all of those. The 12axx psvanes have stayed put. Hoping they last beyond 2+ years. We’ll see, time will tell. Your experience may vary.
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@rocray "He said they are very close to the Shuguangs."
I've heard similar from a colleague yet want to test it myself too, later. I've been following some of the musical chairs discussion about some design engineers bouncing from one factory to the next. After the founder of TJFM passed, some tooling was reportedly sold to PSVANE for their line of small signal tubes including CV181/6SN7s. They were making re-labeled tubes for at least 3 others, privately.
After watching GF drop PSVANE Premium pairs directly for Linlai, I wrapped up testing quads of TJFM 6SN7s this last year - ordered a pair of the newer PSVANE matched CV181-TIIs this week sourced directly overseas, someone i used prior.
Would like to eventually compare the newer version PSVANE II to the Linlai version after I sell off some other stuff.
Keep us posted @rocray after some good burn-in occurs. Thx
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@decooney, I remember reading about the Grant/Psvane thing a while back. That being in the back of my mind,held me back from ordering a pair of the blue globe 6sn7’s.
Yep. I truly wondered if the matter had something to do with other financial or buying power factors vs. quality issues. As we’ve seen, vendors, resellers, drop manufacturers for reasons many of us will never know about. I’ve learned to make my own evals, particularly if there is a mid-level seller involved in that chain.
These folks get super competitive too. While I read unvalidated feedback from anonymous folks stating "it only lasted a year", I’ve found the opposite with my older TJ Full Music 6SN7s and new PSVANE small tubes 12AU7, 12AT7s still going strong. All my good 60s Mullard Blackburn plant nos/vintage stuff is stored away in boxes now. Re-visting PSVANEs in other tube types is next for me. Its what AN is using too, in their own private batches. You keep up the good work with Linlai too! Nice.
Ask: keeping each other updated and informed here, I’ll trust this more.
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@fleschler Why are Sophia Electric 6SN7s unavailable?
Take this with a grain of salt. Been told by another member I don’t know what I’m talking about. Okay. After the father of TJ Fullmusic passed, reportedly (unvalidated) his son decided to sell off some of the tooling for the smaller line of tubes to PSVANE including N7s. This has been debated on other forums too.
Kept a few photos to watch it unfold studying who is making tubes for who and putting labels on for them in fancier gold label boxes. :) I plan to physically and sonically compare the new PSVANE CV181-TII tubes in a few weeks when they arrive. Look:
Compare the (former) regular TJ Fullmusic 6SN7s to the regular Sophia Electric 6SN7s.
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I wonder if Viva got a bad batch all from the same lot (giant box o’ tubes), rattled apart or something maybe from a dropped box in shipping from afar. Who knows, they’ll have to answer to you’all on that. Over the years had good luck with them, however also started purchasing from different individual suppliers who test or test/listen to tubes before shipping them out. Seems like varied quality right now. Like what @lowrider57 said, "band of brothers" giving feedback and forcing their hand a bit will help, a message of seeing to folks getting their refunds taken care of first.
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@rocray , I just went there and saw a few pairs listed. Globe Balloons and Black plate pairs listed, both. Could be sporadic supply or them playing games making it look like they are low inventory to get people to buy "last few pairs" each day. Two things to try. Weird pricing stuff going on with some of the quads of power tubes I use and Viva is now marking up 2x-4x on some quads too. Clear your cache / clear history on your computer browser in case its showing an old page not refreshed, and/or call them tomorrow on the phone and see what matched pairs they really have in stock. Let us know what the scoop of the day is now :)
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@markusthenaimnut "...If I like them I’ll want another pair as backup."
Exactly. It does present a unique challenge when we find something you like even "better". Makes a case for us learning to be content with what we have now. Not! LOL :)
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hI @rocray I sent you a private message with a scale regarding tubes both of us are familiar with. No, TJFM are not bright in comparsion. The PSVANES are little softer than TJFM with my preamp and setup.
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Update: 100+hrs on the PSVANE CV181-TII (6SN7s), opened up a little more past the 100 mark. Now neck and neck with TJ Full Music 6SN7s in the tone and detail department, still smooth though. Now they sound more similar than different. Very satisfied.
Will let them play and maybe try and compare with Linlai later this year. Keep this thread going, looking forward to checking back every once in a while to see how others are doing with Linlai, other tube that may surface over the next year.
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@rocray on the flip side, the Premium Box set of PSVANE CV181-TII (6SN7s) tubes arrived today.
27 days to reach my doorstep in the USA, ordered from a large overseas distributor. Surprised the package arrived undamaged after many station scans, transfers.
A little taller and slightly wider at the base compared to the TJ Full Music 6SN7s.
Shows tested 10/9/2021, a little over 5 months ago, likely distributor inventory.
Starting burn-in now, hearing changes in the first four hours already. Interesting.
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Hi @rocray Not sure at this juncture, and its because of how these tubes sounded in the first 45 minutes and the next 6 hours brand new. I’m more use to the sound being kinda strange first 2-20 hours on new input tubes like this.
First, I’m wondering if these were pre-burned in 72hrs or something like that. I doubt it, but they almost sounded too good at 6hrs of run-in time last night. So much so, that I don’t want them to change any more, hoping they stay put as-is.
Trying not to pre-judge them yet, they are too new, will try to run them in some more evenings this week and a lot more next weekend. I’m comparing them to my NOS Sylvania 3-hole black plates, TJ Full Music 6SN7s, and generic TS re-issue 6SN7GTBs as a very wide baseline to compare to. To be fair, I’d need to buy a set of Linlai too, maybe later this year on those. Will do.
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@rocray @decooney, congratulations on the tubes. Please keep us posted as they burn in. How many hours do the Psvanes require?
@markusthenaimnut @decooney good to hear that you’re evaluating the Psvanes. I’ll be watching thread with interest.
75hrs: knock on wood, so far so good. I like them. The 2yr old TJ Full Music 6SN7s have a tad more detail on super top-end and neutral midrange, yet the new PSVANEs have a slight roll off of the highs at the very top end, and slightly more pronounced midrange and texture that I really like. The detail is there, maybe a tad darker between notes - kinda nice. I’m kind of a midrange freak with guitar string tones, piano keys, and mid and lower register of voices, saxophones, violins, etc.
When I mix the PSVANE CV181-TIIs s in my preamplifier and the broken in KT120s in my mono block tube amps, the combination gives a pleasant sound overall. Nothing is fatiguing and most everything is engaging with different sources, tracks. Fortunately had most of this stuff ordered before all this sad war stuff started going on.
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@lowrider57 UK-6SN7, seems like it would be worth a go. I did read once the clear UK version might be more neutral, less lush, compared to the gray coated CV181-IIs like I have now. And, we know the sound changes in different amp circuits, amps. It was a flip of a coin to try either for me, and a friend had good luck with his gray glass output tubes in an older Jolida, KT88s, running them for 2yrs solid now with no issues, so I tried the gray glass PSV CV181s next. Yours may vary.
PSV-181s: A litte more detail is coming through now after 75hrs on the PSV CV181s, yet they are definitely a tad more lush at the same time. A little more of the highs rolled off [slightly, not bad] compared to my vintage sylvanias or the TJFM. I like them, super easy to listen to for most content I listen to online. Keeping them in place for now. Wanna see what happens at 200hrs. Storing others.
AN-PSV: For a while there the AN use of PSVANE tubes was kept on the down-low. My local dealer was telling me two years ago before the pandemic that Peter [@AN] has his own spec on the tubes made for them, fwiw. Not sure how much different they could be beyond a label change. Would have to buy a pair to compare native PSV vs AN versions of the tubes in an actual AN amp I guess.
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If WE makes more of these smaller tubes that sound good at a reasonable (not overly greedy) price, they will sell in volumes. Competition with PSVANE, Linlai, leftover TJFM, and possibly resurrection of Shuguang down the road, and others coming online is real now. Good to now have 6SN7 and 6SL7 options we did not have as much 4-5 years ago.
Hope to read more about Linlai 6SN7s after 200hrs play time.
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@aldnorab both sets of my TJ Fullmusic and recent Psvane (6SN7 / CV181) tubes at 24-48hrs hrs did not sound like they do at 100-150hrs. Patience did pay off.
For example, the Psvanes were smooth at first 2-10hrs, then became more brittle and detailed at 24hrs for a short window. THEN, slowly started smoothing out gradually up to 48hrs. Once I got past 100hrs it seemed like they were overly smooth, almost too much so at this point. Kept at it, hoping it would change again. Past the 100hr mark maybe at 150hrs they've balanced out nicely. Still very smooth, not lacking smoothness, not lacking midrange, picked up a little sound stage again, a little more detail back in the picture now with no edge, grain, or harshness now. Not changing now. Maybe stabilized between 100-150hrs.
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ASK: Can you report back after 100hrs and again at 150hrs on what you hear?
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@aldnorab my TJ FullMusic (TJFM) kinda did the same thing as the Psvanes just did. Gonna pull the Psvanes soon and go back to the TJFM and see if I notice subtle differences. Thanks for tracking and reporting out on your Linlai E 6SN7s.
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...Other than the blue glass, I have no idea what the difference is. Sonically,I have no idea what to expect. This was an impulse buy. They look cool. No other reason.
It’s what we do. We try stuff, and compare. It’s fun.
Some consider it cheap therapy too :)
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If the resurrected WE Co could get serious and not overly greedy on price, make a bunch of different quality tubes, and then sell them to diehards like us.
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Members over at the head-fi org forum have been studying all the different variants of Shuguang and Psvane CV181 / 6SN7 tubes for years. Different shapes, different colors, clear, grey, blue, silver, and a variety of custom versions sold to different amp manufacturers who use them in their amps.
Similar stories about how the son of TJ Fullmusic ended up selling off tooling for their smaller tubes to Psvane as well. Trying them seems to be the only way to know if they work well or not.
Over there is where I read about "Funn Chen", in 2013 a Psvane employee and the stories about the engineers who split off from Shuguang and formed Psvane.
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@rocray curious to learn more from your feedback on the blue globe Psv. I now have well over 150hrs on the Gray/Gold PSV CV181 premium pair tubes in my preamp. They are a unique tube, different from everything else in my stash. They are not crisp on top. Ultra smooth. Its nice yet odd to me how they are smooth, almost soft, and yet somehow still let upper detail still come through without adding too much edge or grain, at all - if that makes any sense. I’m using my most revealing OCC/Ohno interconnects between pre>amp too. Last night, once the system was fully warmed I was actually getting closer to 3D’ish sound from my FM tuner of all things. Its good to know we have other options with Linlai, PSV, etc.
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@rocray for comparison, I would not characterize the bass on the Gray Glass / Gold base CV181 MKII Psvanes as being tight or super fast either. It’s not flabby, yet slightly more on the "bloomy" side, which I like. I have been sort of looking for this bloomy character with various 6SN7s too. In my experience this character also tends to bring nice lower midrange tones along with it. Something I prefer with my all-tube system. All part of my intentional moves away from analytical solid state sound past 5+ years. The best part about tubes, tuning the sound.
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@aldnorab its possible you may notice more change after 100hrs. I thought my Psvanes were done settling after 60-75hrs, nope. Maybe after 100hrs it was still smooth, noticed a wee-tiny bit more bit transparency coming through, something new I did not hear in the first 40hrs. Same occurred with my TJFM 6SN7 tubes too, fwiw. I can imagine there was little test time on them from the factory, have no clue, uncertain.
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@rocray congrats on trying and learning the differences first hand. Having a few different types of 6SN7s is fun when you’re in the mood to mix it up every once in a while. My gray glass gold base Psvanes cv181 mkIIs are a bit rounded sounding on top, with less on the edges some too. I like and tend to seek this characteristic some times as it tends to expose the midrange frequencies a little more than my extra clean / vivid / transparent n7 tubes. Paying close attention to tones of piano keys and acoustic guitars is a favorite comparison test. I wonder if you might grow to like the Linlai and PSVANE globe for different reasons over time. Its also one of the tuning factors that keeps me running tube DACs, preamp, amps. Good fun. Thanks for taking the time to share back your experiences with this. Enjoy!
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Some times triple-boxing is required. Check your tracking number and shipping history, did they go through Shenzen China sorting facility here?: 😫
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Vivatubes is carrying Linlai as of May 2022. 6SN7, 811, 811A.
6SN7 referred to as "E-6SN7 Globe-Balloon Black Plates", if that’s not the same as what you guys are talking about here - same or different? A photo from their site.
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@bugredmachine IF one tube can get rattled apart in shipping, the tube sitting next to it in the same box, taking on the same drops, blows, or crushing during handling, can get damaged too. Triple boxing with stuffing will become a cheap fix of the future. One of my sources learned this after two years of multiple DOA sets.
Or, maybe it has nothing to do with shipping, so (as you are) it sure seems worth trying a second pair and letting someone else try out the first pair for ya and compare notes. Good idea.
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@bugredmachine a buddy of mine has a preamp that reacts in an odd way to gain of different tubes, so it will be interesting for @danmar123 to test for you. Dan, what preamp do you have, same or different than what bugred has?
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@bugredmachine does your line stage preamp have R/L Gain adjustment knobs on the front?
IF so, what happens to the hiss if you back off from 5’oclock to 12’oclock position, etc. Does the level of hiss stay the same as you now turn up the main volume control on the line stage. I was not able to find db gain on that Linlai tube pair, or if its over 20db. A quick test..
Why? ... doing some light reading on gain of various N7 and L7 tubes, preamps, and amps with higher input sensitivity. No real finds, just curious.Wondering if that particular pair of tubes experiencing hiss in the overall system may benefit some by backing off on R/L gain at the amplifier or preamp. Easy to try real quick if you have gain adjustment on the line stage.
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@coachpoconnor If it fits, I bet it will be tight in the ’98 and pins possibly not fully seated to the base. Also, may depend on which Linlai you buy. Some are narrower at the lower hip area. Here is a photo of the Psvane 181-TIIs, and they are wide and bulge out at the bottom. I was able to make the top psv work in my SLP-98 yet they could sit down more if the cutouts the top plate of the preamp was a wider diameter. The 2nd Linlai tube pictured here is narrower at the lower hip, might fit better. The bottom linlai tube pictured here is wider hip like my psv is and might be a tight fit or bottom out on the top plate before fully seated in your 98. Best of luck.
CV181-TII (wide lower hip)
New Linlai 6SN7 Hifi Black Plates, Gold Pins, shouldered (slightly more narrow hip)
New Linlai E-6SN7 Globe-Balloon Black Plates (wider lower hip)
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@danmar123 to @bugredmachine "NO hiss what so ever. I have LaScala’s 2 which is 105 db"
Does this not confirm its the preamp or how the tubes are installed, or not fully seating? I am interested to read if the riser/adapters help this situation out or not.
Also wondering how much the adapters will impact the sound.
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@bugredmachine with your level of determination and persistence, you'll get it figured out. The bourbon idea sounds pretty darn good about now 🍾
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@bugredmachine Have them paired with the Shunguangs right now but I prefer the Full Music and will try those tomorrow in the second seat.
bugredmachine, that's what I've been doing too with my TJ Full Music in the rear spots on the 98. Psvane in front spots. I've been experimenting with also putting lower cost re-issue tubes in the rear slot too, thus saving all the good tubes for the two front spots. Still undecided if the higher cost TJFM or Psvanes in the rear spots are added benefit to the sound or not. Will be curious to read about your findings on this topic after you have tested some more. Thanks.
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@coachpoconnor do the Linlai 6SN7 fit down in the top cover hole and seat down fully seated in your SLP-98?
I may end up putting my other new spare premium set of PSVANE CV181s / 6SN7 up for sale as i’m now seeing they may not be fully seated down inside in SLP98 my preamp to the base I don’t know if its an issue or not. The first pair sounds great, yet not sure if this could create problems. Curious if the Linlai are as wide at the base too. Prefer not to modify my top plate hole cutouts to make them fit down in further.
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@coachpoconnor After reading this entire thread, I’ve decided to order a set Linlai E-6sn7. I recently purchased a SLP-98; ...
Forgot to ask, did you buy two or four of the Linlai 6SN7s?
Tip: if you’ve not discovered this yet, and only bought two tubes, try swapping tubes front/rear positions in your SLP-98. It can yield different results. Early on I focused more on the front tubes mainly. Later on i.e. placed my TJ Full Music 6SN7s up front (transparency), and PSVANE CV181-TIIs (tonal weight) in the rear spots. The blend of two different type tubes in front and rear spots can be nice.
You can try the same with the Linlai 6SN7s too front & rear only w/other tubes in the opposing spots. Its amazing how it can produce different sounds, tones, textures in different combinations with one preamp.
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Its good you guys are comparing these latest offerings to vintage, and reporting back. Helps to know what others are hearing too. Thanks!
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@vivatubes ...The E-6SN7 is an incredible tube and we hope that they conitnue to expand their line. Every single tube that we sell is genuine and we go through great lengths to ensure this...
What is your testing process and procedure before sending them out to customers?
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@rocray a bit after I first got my 6sn7/cv181-TII psvanes, something similar happened. 1st time I tried them, fine out of the box. Later had removed them with barely 10-12 hrs on them. A few weeks later I re-installed them, at startup for about 45-60 seconds I heard this fuzzy sound, grainy, mildly static, as if some of the internal coating had flashed off or something, maybe barely arching with small particles floating around. Went away after 3-4 minutes of warmup at startup. Same thing happened with some small signal/driver vintage true NOS tubes from Brent Jesse. Intermittent static, a few pops. He had me pull them, tap them on the counter bottom/pins side down, 3 taps, and put them back in - and cured, gone. He shared maybe some micro burned off particles floating around with these new/un-played tubes would settle at the bottom of the tubes, fwiw. No issues since on the new output tubes or the older nos input tubes since. No clue if anything like this is related to yours, sharing a similar type experience. Pull, lightly tap-tap-tap, re-install. Happy listening. 👍
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Look close, those two tubes are made and shaped differently too.
-Flatter and wider top on the first one.
-Rounder curves, top corners, on the second one.
-Notched base on the second one. Smooth base on the first.
-internal top section looks a little different.
-different print obviously.
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@rocray Sure thing. Just to clarify, not all of my 6SN7 / CV181 tubes required any tapping to settle loose material floating around inside the tubes after some early burn-in. This did occur on some of my better-smaller signal 1960s NOS tubes from Brent Jesse, and this helped to solve it in the same manner 3rd try of tapping pins gently on a hard surface. After that, fast clicks, pops, went away, fortunately. Voodoo magic, who knows. It worked in cases with my older vintage tubes though.
Curious to know if this is resolved for you by now or if it keeps happening past your 3rd tapping attempt. Often times I wonder about differences with early batches from these tube manufacturers where someone is buying "older" stock from one resellers vs. another reseller - with (perhaps) a later version of the same tube on the shelf where the mfg caught issues and fixed it early for future batches before anyone knows it. All theoretical of course. Will be interesting to see if your next pairs work differently compared to your early pairs you received. Please share more as this unfolds.
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@earthbound check here: https://linlaiglobal.com
Clip, reference:
LINLAI™ is a trademark belong to a NEW vacuum tube factory in China – formed by a team of engineers who officially exit Psvane prior to 2019. (This story script is an ‘encore’ of how Psvane was formed a decade ago, when a team of highly experienced engineers exited the state-owned Shuguang tube factory then. In short, Linlai™ team split from Psvane due to irreconcilable disagreement on valuation of investments by both sides.)"
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