Maybe one day in the future, fancier glitzier chassis, remote control volume, multiple inputs (switched via wetted relays). It will more than treble the price but still sound the same, no better than the original sounds now. And some complain about the $500 shipped worldwide cost of the current unit, go figure what they'll say when it's $1500+ for the fancier one.
Cheers George |
George, are you joking? Some actually complain about the cost of the current unit? To those that do, I say go out and build a better one at a lower cost. Until you can, buy George's and feel content knowing you have a world class preamp in your system. |
George, the cheaper the product the greater the customer service demands. Don't know the name of that law, but it seems to apply across industries. It would be good for you to be able to include the wall-wart with the shipment, though I guess that can get crazy, but I assume the US would be a pretty big market. $1000-#1500 with multiple inputs and a more substantial, fancier chassis should have a strong following amongst the passive set. Congrats on the ongoing Stereophile recognition. |
Goldpoint does a very good job of providing a classy, no-nonsense case for their array of passive preamps. |
220v/240v wall warts are supplied to most countries except the U.S. which is unfortunately 110v. (Just like you guys also drive on the wrong side of the road compared to everyone else).
I refund $15 to those customers and give them a few links to get their own in the U.S. on line.
In Australia it is a safety issue to sell or supply or import 110v wall warts, on suppliers sell them, as you can imagine if one were to be given 240v it would become a molten mass very quickly.
Cheers George |
Devilboy: George, are you joking? Some actually complain about the cost of the current unit? Devilboy
I am serious, here is one reply email from yesterday, and I'm ashamed to say he was from Australia as well.
" Hi George, Thanks for your reply. It's very expensive. I've to save money for this. J"
Cheers George |
Well even at it's price point I guess not everyone can afford to own the best preamp ever:) |
From my original posting: "Is it the best ever? I suspect for some it may be, and to say that for a $450 product makes it stupidgood."
"Stupidgood" -- (a phrase not invented by John Gordon Holt or Harry Pearson, but Bobby P. of Merlin Music Systems to describe products that punch way beyond their price point. |
Even if you gave it away for free, you'll find someone to complain that it wasn't shipped overnight express.
To be honest though, two years ago, prior to being bit by the audio bug, I also would have said that $500 is 'very expensive'. I know better now. |
My brother thinks $500 is outrageous for a complete system. |
Wow that's a long one. Who wants to have a possibility to go to the last page from one click instead of paging it through?
Oooh-Gon, please find the power from Allmighty to properly design your web page! |
Wow that's a long one. Who wants to have a possibility to go to the last page from one click instead of paging it through?
Oooh-Gon, please find the power from Allmighty to properly design your web page! that's what '>>' is for |
Anyone heard the P&S Technologies OPC271 yet? Another Lightspeed clone or something different? It comes as a kit that can be used as a passive or fitted into an active preamp as a volume control. The opto part is a sealed black box that I assume contains matched LDRs plus maybe some other linearizing bits - the performance graphs they show look pretty good. In addition, it comes with an LED display, built in switching for 4 inputs plus HT bypass, remote control and mute. I've written them for some tech specs like input impedance, but haven't heard back yet.
Any thoughts/experience?
http://www.pns-tech.com/products.php |
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From what has been told to me OPC271 (one of the first Lightspeed copies) is like my original Mk 1 Lightspeed Attenuator but with more glitz, which is a series resistor and shunt ldr, while it was still sounding very good and better than all other volume control devices on the market, is not as good as the MKII Lightspeed Attenuator which is series LDR and shunt LDR, which has a lower low volume and more stable input and output impedances, and the main difference it sounds far better, especially in the bass and dynamically.
This is why all the MK1 Lightspeed Attenuators were recalled and converted to MKII status and were well praised by their customers.
I wish I could have continued to make just the MKI as it is far easier to manufacture as the MKII is exponentially harder and expensive to do.
Cheers George |
If the OPC271 has a fixed series resistor, how can they claim an adjustment range of -99dB to -0.3dB? Shouldn't the fixed series resistor limit that range? |
Their shunt LDR could be paralleled by other shorting components, as there is no way of getting -99db of attenuation any other way, not even with best NSL32SR2S's which have the lowest on resistance of 60ohms at 20mA in quad matched form, sure you can push them to 25-30mA to get 30ohms but then they will fail after time.
Cheers George |
Clio09, Tony hi, wonder if you can confirm something for me. As I think you have purchased both stereo and dual mono Lightspeeds from memory, as I have never had the opportunity to do it and it goes against all logical reasoning.
I have had a few report from customers that have the dual mono (left & right volume led brightness controls) Lightspeed Attenuators that they have done comparisons with friends that have the single stereo control Lightspeeds and they believe that the dual mono sounds a little bit better, this goes against all logic for me as the only difference is that the dual stereo pot is split into two mono pots all values and circuits are the same and as all probably know they only control the led brightness and have nothing to do with the ldr signal component.
Cheers George |
Hi George, no I have two dual mono versions. The other one you sold to my friend here locally is also dual mono. So unfortunately I cannot make a comparison, unless of course Pubul57 wants to lend me his for a bit, that is if he can live without it in his system:)
I can't imagine why one would sound better than the other. As you stated the switches are out of the signal path. Maybe the ability to dial in the right and left channel volume separately improves the listening experience, from my perspective this is why I prefer dual mono and it does contribute to my enjoyment of the music. However, I could not see this improving the sonic characteristics or tonal quality of the sound itself. |
Since rooms and ears (especially as we get older) are inbalanced in many cases, getting left and right just right might help lock in an image - which you did not even know was off till you heard adjusted. Then there is the priciple that we often hear our expectations and it takes quite a while to get past them and to listen through them. |
My asymmetric room is causing, I think, balance issues. I wish I had bought the dual mono version. |
Yes rooms can be a problem, I have a very symmetrical room but about 1/3 along the side wall is a 1 x .7 mt glass fronted photo and it has to have a towel put over it when I do serious listening as the sonic hf mf side reflections it produces does tend to shift the imaging around a little, maybe this is what the customers who are in favour of the dual mono Lightspeed Attenuators model are hearing when they say they like it better.
Cheers George |
What is the cost of the dual mono? I assume the Walwart would be the same. |
Hi Paul, the dual mono version is $35 more than the standard stereo version at $490 (which is not backwards compatible) and this includes worldwide shipping.
Yes you can use the same wall wart, if you already have this then there will be a price adjustment of $15.
Cheers George |
Hi George. What do you mean by "not backwards compatible"? |
Sorry, should of explained it better.
If you have a stereo version it cannot be made into a dual mono easily, as the chassis parts are drilled/mounted slightly different and circuit boards are done/wired different to accommodate the dual setup. Even though electrically circuit wise they are almost identical save for 2 extra led controler hook ups.
Cheers George |
Sorry to go slightly off topic here. Don't want to derail the direction this thread is currently going but....I just have to say something. Something that you all already know. After spending a few months listening, nothing, and I mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G I've heard in audio has made me shake my head in utter disbelief more than listening to music through the Lightspeed. Put simply, after listening with the Lightspeed, EVERYTHING is overpriced. Just had to get that out to anyone unfamiliar with this preamp. You may continue with the thread... |
Devilboy, it is great when you find something like the LS in your system that really works perfectly and exceeds all your expectations. Very excited for you!
I tried the LS in another system and it simply did not work. But reading everything here I was tempted to try it again with my new amp and speakers. I am always open minded and just had to give the LS another try.
I purchased one a few weeks ago and inserted it into my system. My new amp has an input impedance of 475k ohms and I actually measured it at 570k ohms! My new speakers are also relatively efficient so I felt I could give the LS a real chance to sing!
Well, I put the little LS on top of my 70 pound reference preamp and gave it a second whirl. I took notice immediately as my music sounded wonderful .
Dead quite background with nice tone and no hint of grain or any type of nasties. Nicely detailed and certainly earned my respect. For $500 and in the right system, the LS is a bargain of large proportion.
After several weeks of longer term listening I have come to respect this little passive. I would go as far as saying it kept pace and even bested some big dollar active preamps I have heard. Actives that sell for several thousand new. However, in the end I sold it as my tube preamp just surpassed it in too many ways. While my preamp costs $4000 new, compared to the wonderful LS it is not overpriced considering the improvement it brings to my music collection.
So I would not say all high end gear is overpriced as good values do reside in other places. I do agree that we must be careful as it is indeed easy to overpay in this hobby. |
I thought "everything" was over priced when I heard the $135 Pot-in-a-Box (expensive Noble pots used on the vintage Audio Research SP-6) sold by Roger Modjeski. Given my two line stages at the time were in the $5-7k range a few years ago, it seemed like a bloody good deal! The LSA just happens to take a "simple" passive volume control to the nth degree, and as you have discovered, in the right system can be a pretty magical way of controlling volume. |
Granny ring, just curious, what amps are we talking about? Tubes or SS? |
I am using an Aesthetix Atlas Hybrid amp with a 6sn7 input stage. |
Devilboy - I note that you have a Bent Audio Tap (as well as the Metrum Octave). Could you do a quick comparison of the LSA and the Bent? That I believe would be of interest to everyone on this thread. |
I can now see why you preferred the tube preamp that has gain Grannyring. As your Aesthetix Atlas power amp has well below the standard input sensitivity at 3.1v. The input impedance was fine at 470k or higher (as you measured) but most amps on the market need 2v or less input sensitivity to drive them, your amp needs 3.1v most sources only have 2v (Red Book standard) so this amp is not suited to preamps that are unity gain active or passive.
If you could of raised the gain of the Atlas by a higher "gain" input tube or lowering the feedback, way so it became 2v or less input sensitivity then I would dare say that you may not have sold your Lightspeed Attenuator.
Cheers George |
Well, I am taken back. The Atlas amp I own is high gain(26 db) if memory serves. It is also a zero feedback design. It has a measured input impedance of 570k ohms. It has a rated input sensitivity of: 60mV for 1W output, 2.3V for full power.
If this amp is a poor match, then the LS is not suitable for most all amps ever made and not a real world product - period. Several vocal and seasoned Aphiles own the Atmasphere/LS combo,and the Atma amps have a rated sensitivilty of 3.1v to full power. They say the Atma amps are good matches and this whole input sensitivity thing is overblown. I happen to think your product is real world, and the Atlas amp was a wonderful match. Please understand the consequence of your statement is a clear message that only in the rarest of circumstances will any stereo owner ever hear the true possibilities of this unit. I must say this seems near impossible George.
No, my amp and set-up were most accommodating to the LS. If not, good luck to you owners who think you have begun to hear your LS system's possibilities. You have not. It is even better then you imagine. LOL |
Grannyring, I know you amp is a hybrid, but not sure how much it works like and SS amp versus a tube amp, but there does seem to be some consistency in folks with SS amps being less enamored of the LSA than those with tube amps, and I suspect it has less to do with impedances and sensitivities, than tube versus SS sonics. Not commenting on your amp in particular since I am not familiar with its sound or operation, but more as a general comment - I think most folks that fall in love with the LSA own tube amps (no?). |
Well the thing is this Paul. The LS sounded glorious in my system. Really downright glorious. The Atlas is a tube amp at heart in the way it sounds. It is a beautiful sounding amp. Quite special.
The LS sounded amazing and let the Atlas and my speakers shine. No doubt, in my small mind, that my system was a supurb match for the LS. I guess I simply cannot say my active was better. When I say that it seems something must not have been perfect for the LS. Oh well. I will let that frustration go and know George truly believes, with passion, that the LS is the gold standard. Good to have that passion!
As awesome as the LS is in my well suited system, the tube active I own was just awesomerrrrrrr.... |
Yes Jult52, it would be interesting to hear your comments on the BENT versus LSA, I have owned the TVC and AVC versions, and I think Clio9 has heard a Slagle AVC, as well as an S&B -based TVC. UNfortunately, I did not have them at the same time as the LSA to a careful comparison over time. |
The Atlas monoblock is 3.1V to full power so I'm assuming Bill has the stereo version which is 2.3V. That should pose no issues for the LSA IMO.
The gain stage in the amp is tube driven. Output stage would appear to be solid state. The amp does double its power output from 8 to 4 ohms and it has an output impedance that is incredibly low and somewhat of a norm for solid state. I am curious how Jim White gets such a low output impedance from a zero feedback design.
While the LSA does match up well with the Atmas-Sphere S-30 in my system, I do feel it matches up better with the Music Reference amps I have. Driving the S-30 direct from my Resolution Audio Cantata (5.5V buffered output) seems to offer some benefits as well, but it is not as pure a signal transfer. In fact nothing has been as pure as the LSA in my system.
If you go to Devilboy's system page he comments on the fact that he did not do a head to head comparison between the Tap-X and LSA. In my direct comparisons with my Slagle DIY unit and the LSA they are pretty close, but I give a slight edge to the LSA, again it is more pure where there is some coloration from the autoformers. |
I believe I stand to be corrected, I see that it's the Atlas "monoblocks" that are 3.1v sensitivity, these are not suited for unity gain active or passives preamps, they will work but fine with maybe a source headroom disadvantage.
However I now been told the stereo version of the Atlas is better at 2.3v sensitivity, much better for unity gain actives or passives, this is why you like it, still not as good as 2v or less sensitivity amps, which most are.
Cheers George |
Clio09 I am curious how Jim White gets such a low output impedance from a zero feedback design.Clio09
Could be that it has no "global" negative feedback, there are such things as "local" feedbacks, and even feedforward circuits. It all in the wording.
Cheers George |
Devilboy, it is great when you find something like the LS in your system that really works perfectly and exceeds all your expectations. Very excited for you!
I tried the LS in another system and it simply did not work. But reading everything here I was tempted to try it again with my new amp and speakers. I am always open minded and just had to give the LS another try.
I purchased one a few weeks ago and inserted it into my system. My new amp has an input impedance of 475k ohms and I actually measured it at 570k ohms! My new speakers are also relatively efficient so I felt I could give the LS a real chance to sing!
Well, I put the little LS on top of my 70 pound reference preamp and gave it a second whirl. I took notice immediately as my music sounded wonderful .
Dead quite background with nice tone and no hint of grain or any type of nasties. Nicely detailed and certainly earned my respect. For $500 and in the right system, the LS is a bargain of large proportion.
After several weeks of longer term listening I have come to respect this little passive. I would go as far as saying it kept pace and even bested some big dollar active preamps I have heard. Actives that sell for several thousand new. However, in the end I sold it as my tube preamp just surpassed it in too many ways. While my preamp costs $4000 new, compared to the wonderful LS it is not overpriced considering the improvement it brings to my music collection.
So I would not say all high end gear is overpriced as good values do reside in other places. I do agree that we must be careful as it is indeed easy to overpay in this hobby. |
Never a truer word has been spoken:) |
I have happily had a Lightspeed for a year now but I would like to have the ability to control both channels independently. It was just mentioned they weren't backward compatible. I was wondering if it would be as good as a dual control Lightspeed to use another regular Lightspeed with mine and just one in and out per attenuator for each channel. Why I ask is I see some regular ones for sale here from time to time. Thanks. |
Marqmike: Yes you can do that, I have one customer in Hawaii that bought 2 units off me years ago, thinking he wanted the extra one for a friend. He thought he needed 2 for stereo then found out when he got them he only needed one.
I said for him to send them both back and I would give him a dual mono instead and refund him the difference, he kept both and to this day is using both as you have outlined.
Cheers George |
For all which are looking for something really good - www.funk-tonstudiotechnik.de
http://funktonstudiotechnik.blogspot.com
http://funk-mtx-v3-monitor.blogspot.com/2012/02/mtx-monitor-preamplifier-from-funk.html |
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Jult52: As Clio09 said, I no longer have the Bent. It was in a completely different system at the time and I believe every single component has changed since then. Boy, would I love to throw it in right now to compare with the LSA though. In the meantime I would take Clio09's word for it. I'm sure he knows his stuff. |
The more I think about this, I'm not sure how balance control really helps with room or hearing asymmetries as the asymmetry is not constant across the frequency spectrum, that dips and crests in dBs are widely different based on the frequency response - much to nuanced for such a blunt adjustment. Dealing with screwed recording levels yes, but the rest just seems like a hornet;s nest. |
Unless it helps us deal with "matching" drift, though I'm not sure that is constant across frequency either. |
This is possible Paul, but thermal inter-channel drift is only prevalent in DIY Lightspeeds or Lightspeed clones.
The production Lightspeed Attenuator that have been built by us, all have their quad matched NSL32SR2S led/ldr units packed together. Then they are potted together in hard wax, this keeps them thermally stable to each other and ensures the final calibration to remain correct for years.
My prototype has now been going (powered) for 6 years 24/7 and is still in calibration after all this time, and I have never had one back just for recalibration.
Cheers George |
