i am starting the hunt for a new turntable and what to hear from past owners of Technics TT's.
My first real turntable was a Luxman PD272 with a Shure V15 Type IV cartridge, both of which I wore out. Given it was my formative years, I loved that set-up. I acquired my Technics 1200 Mk5 about ten years ago after a long journey down the digital fork in the road.
Due to some technical furniture issues and WAF, I had to set the TT aside, again. I have rolled through various digital gear and currently use a PS Audio PWT and Theta ProBasic III R2R ladder DAC.
Anyway...I set up the Technics again with an AT150 MLX cartridge and....lo and behold...the digital setup, while not possessing that vinyl sound, does sound better than the SL1200 and AT150.
I did not want to believe this, so I reinstalled the cartridge and realigned the table. Same resort. Basically, the sound is a bit tilted to the treble, the bass is a bit thin compared to my digital gear, and the overall sound seems lean.I have fiddled with cartridge tracking and tonearm balance with no improvement.
So what is next? Is it I do not like the AT cartridge? Has my digital gear outgrown my TT?
That is why I want to learn about the experiences of those of you that moved to a different turntable from Technics. What Technics table did you have and what cartridge?
What new turntable and cartridge replaced your Technics setup? How did the sound improve? I would appreciate any and all advice!
OK- so 3 feet of that is 100pf. If the cartridge spec is for 150pf the phono section should be set to 50pf.
@lewm
The 12 AX7 used in a common topology typically will add about 50 pF or more to the capacitance seen by the cartridge
The cartridge specification is 100 to 200pF and the phono preamp uses 12ax7 tubes so it appears that I need go to 50pF if not zero, I left all of the capacitance switches in the off position.
Sounds a bit fuller, more impact on leading edges of notes...I think...?!
The real problem is I still do not understand what I am really doing when I change the phono preamp capacitance setting. Can anyone explain, if you have the time, or direct me to some good written material that I can review?
My brain just freezes up trying to understand the basic electrical concepts associated with this subject.
I "inherited" a full wall of Harden Cherry shelving/entertainment center that the wife wanted out of the main floor.
Pretty stuff and all hardwood. BUT, it does not translate well for the turntable (in addition to reducing the space I have to maneuver speakers). Anyway, just no good spot to place the turntable. Right now it is sitting on a pair of Large Advent Loudspeakers in front of the shelving unit.
This arrangement was a recent brain child of mine that will not be well received when the queen of the castle returns home in the next few days.
Another factor in the capacitance issue is the nature of the input stage of your phono section. Vacuum tubes and transistors have a characteristic input capacitance that is added to the capacitance seen by the cartridge. For example one of the most commonly used tubes in a moving magnet phono stage is the 12 AX7. The 12 AX7 has particularly high input capacitance, which is otherwise known as Miller capacitance. This is for the very reason that the 12 AX7 has a very high mu, which is a correlate of gain. Obviously you need gain at the input, and the 12 AX7 was a common choice throughout the history of tube phono stages intended for use with moving magnet cartridges. The 12 AX7 used in a common topology typically will add about 50 pF or more to the capacitance seen by the cartridge. At least that’s how I remember it based on the last time I had to calculate it.
@dsper I read through the comments before deciding to comment my self and it seems you tried what I was going to suggest and that was dropping the rear of the tonearm to reduce sibalance and improve bass response. As well as dropping the capacitance on your phono stage.
The other question I had was when KAB wired your tonearm, did you have them install their arm tube damper?
In addition to damping it also adds a little mass to the arm. I did my MKII arm years ago with their litz wiring and the damping tube. It made an audible difference
You might try dialing in even less capacitance, since the tonearm cable is part of the overall capacitance that is a load on the cartridge. If its an actual tonearm cable and not a generic audio cable then it might be 60 to 100pf on its own (a generic cable might be 4-5 times that amount!). By decreasing the load capacitance by 50pf you effectively raised the resonant frequency by 3 or 4KHz. This probably puts it right outside the audio band. The further you can get it from the audio band the better- it will open up your bandwidth without increasing brightness.
1. Left the load impedance setting on the phono preamp at 47,000 ohms 2. Finally found the cartridge capacitance spec on the Sumiko web site (did not come with spec sheet in box with cartridge). Realized I had it set at 200pF so I reduced that to 150 pF on the phono preamp 3. Also found the spec for cartridge height and realized I measured it short, so I adjusted tone arm height accordingly.
The result seems to a bit less treble harshness and the bass is tighter.
Does this make sense to you or am clearly not understanding what you posted?
Better bass/foundation, better drive, and the treble is much better. It
is a little bit shrill on a couple of albums but I suspect that it needs
more time to break in or it could just be the albums.
@dsper Good- glad to hear it!
Since this is a high output MM cartridge its really a good idea to look into cartridge loading. This is because there is so much inductance with the cartridge; that in conjunction with the capacitance of the tonearm cable results in an electrical peak. If the cable has high enough capacitance this peak could easily be just at the top of the audible range!
For this reason loading is essential. I think you'll find that takes out the shrillness and it should sound smoother than the digital once you've sorted it out.
The first step might be to find out the capacitance per foot of your tonearm cable. If its over 22pf and if you have more than about a meter of cable I would consider alternatives. Its essential that the cable be low capacitance and this is why you usually don't see longer tonearm cables since the longer they are the more total capacitance.
If I were you, I would buy another brand new cartridge and test the overall setup.
@atmasphere
The one thing that isn't getting mentioned here is that your cartridge is beyond its freshness date.
You guys are correct!
I took your advice and purchased a new Sumiko Oyster Amethyst cartridge. Don't ask how I exactly decided on this cartridge. I knew I wanted a moving magnet and the weight and height seemed like a good fit with the Technics table and KAB rewired arm. There was a review in Novo Press where the cartridge seemed to compare pretty well to more expensive Sumiko cartridges...
I set the cartridge tracking force at 2 grams, impedance loading at 47 kOhm, and capacitance loading at 100 picofarads.
A night versus day improvement from the old
AT150mlx.
Better bass/foundation, better drive, and the treble is much better. It is a little bit shrill on a couple of albums but I suspect that it needs more time to break in or it could just be the albums.
Right now I am listening to an old Sonny Rollins remastered in 1987 on the Prestige HiFi label. Much less snap, crackle, and pop with the new cartridge.
So the gap has closed appreciably between my vinyl and digital, which is now a PWT and Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC.
The vinyl sounds more immediate and the digital is smoother. Maybe that is the vinyl having a better live presence?
There are other arms to use in lieu of the Jelco...but in any case yes the stock arm can't track a heavier low compliance cart correctly. Light mods really wake up the old 1200s but I would, as Chackster suggested, go for an SP10mk2 or the others he suggested if bigger money will be spent eventually.
There are also modern DD aside from Technics from STST, Brinkmann etc. worth considering as well if diy isn't your cup of tea...
The Mk5 is my final destination. 1st attempt at modding an heirloom Mk5 for a friend was such a success and reality check, I built up a second duplicate for myself. Sad to see the demise of Jelco. Their original TK-850S is an integral part of the equation for use with modern MC pickups.
@arcticdeth once you will try better cartridges even at the same price as your dj nightclub II or arkiv, you will be blown away by the sound difference! There is a huge compromise in sound quality in favor to usability in cartridges you’re using (I owned all of them from Ortofon back in the days), and high tracking force is not good for your records. If you like Ortofon try to find M20FL Super with FineLine stylus at $150, you will never return to the nightclub or arkiv once you will hear what is a FineLine "nude" stylus profile.
As long as it works well with the Ortofon cartridge, you are good. I also feel that AT150mlx is a bit of high on treble side, but not at the fatiguing level. My SPU cartridges sound rather smoother than AT150mlx.
I have played with the Jolida voltage gain and impedance switches but maybe I have missed a good combination. It just keeps coming up a bit thin and well....shrill.
So maybe the cartridge has deteriorated over time. There are not enough hours on the stylus for that to be the problem.
In the meantime my Orton Concorde ProS 40 is playing just fine, given what it is.
I had ... I moved to ... I switched to ... I then switched to a ... I added ...
@dsper It looks like your journey is never ending, like most of us. Your Jolida phono pre should be more than adequate to reveal the wonderful sound AT150mlx would produce. You might still want to check the tubes. I have not heard of MC AT150MLA cartridge. Are you sure about the model number? If I were you, I would buy another brand new cartridge and test the overall setup. Any cartridge at over $100 should sound much better than CDs.
Shure M97xE may be good. Gee M97xE was about $100 a few years ago, but now it sells at over $300. If the sound is still dull or bass is thin, you might want to borrow your friend's turntable and give a try. Anyway, there is no such thing as a perfect setup. You can only improve from what you have. The process of improvement is a fun part of listening to vinyl. Often times you get frustrated but it is just a part of the game.
FWIW, I realigned my moving coil AT150 MLA and I got the balance right but it is definitely harsh in the treble. I think I am done fussing with it.
atmasphere, it was good to see your comment about the Grado Gold as it is on my short list of lighter weight MM cartridges. I am also considering a Sumiko Pearl or maybe a bit higher up that line. Another manufacturer I have been looking at is the Nagaoka 110 or 150.
I like the smoothness of my Ortofon ProS40 but wish it was a bit more lively.....
Actually I don't buy MM cartridges all that much; when I do they are new. I see them on turntables that we service. I've also experienced the phenomena with my own cartridges as they've aged. It does not seem to matter whether they are MM or LOMC. I examine the stylus with a microscope to see if there's any wear and then make sure its set up properly in the arm. If it doesn't sound right (tinny) then I replace the stylus. No need to set it up again- just change it and the unit immediately sounds better. Since its not wear, not dirt and not a bent cantilever, the only thing I can attribute this to is a perished suspension. Given the size of the suspension, its not hard to imagine that it will perish like a lot of other polymers that also perish in a similar amount of time. If the customer is a smoker then usually the suspension has melted (just like the rubber parts in a tape machine might in a similar situation). But otherwise when the suspension is gone I've found it more likely that its gone stiff. I've been able a couple of times to restore some suppleness to the suspension by using a tiny amount of brake fluid (which is a trick I learned from antique motorbike restoration for vintage irreplaceable tires) and letting the cartridge sit upside down for about a month. That restored things for a while, but then the sound went back downhill as the fluid worked its way down the cantilever and began collecting dirt. So really the only way I know to deal with this is to simply replace the stylus which isn't that hard (or expensive) with most MM cartridges.
So two anecdotes, contradicting each other. But we do know that polymers perish; for me its more than a bit of a stretch that somehow the polymers used in all cartridges won't perish where they do so commonly elsewhere in the world. Occam's Razor solves this one nicely!
@atmasphere I know you’re not a collector of the best vintage cartridges and never was, but I’m constantly buying rare vintage cartridges hunting for them everyday, I’m telling the truth here, I have never seen a cartridge with collapsed suspension in my collection and all my cartridges (made 30 years ago) are still like new. You’re probably buying junk or you have no luck at all in what you’re buying. Not everyone looking for junk. Age of unused cartridge is not a problem at all (if it’s not Technics cartridge).
I will repeat it again: new MC cartridges are much more problematic than 99% of good old MM/MI. When you have collapsed suspension on $3000-5000 NEW MC cartridge in the first year of using it - this is serious problem.
If you’re so unlucky with vintage MM/MI do yourself a favor - buy spare stylus, don’t try to tell us they are all must be bad simply because they are made in the 80s!
P.S.
My latest discovery: LEVEL II Ruby EXP from the 80’s with original ruby cantilever. Believe it or not, but suspension is perfect. Do I believe in fairy tales you and many others posting here about collapsed suspensions on all vintage cartridges even if they are NOS? I don’t believe, because my own experience is today experience and competently different than yours. All NOS cartridges from different brands were just as good as new without any single problem with rubber damper. No difference in multiply samples of the same model too. Maybe we’re buying different cartridges and maybe I never tried what you tried. But my experience with brands like Audio-Technica, Grace, Pioneer, Stanton, Pickering is ONLY positive! Those carts I bought in so many samples over the years, so I can tell for sure they are just fine! I believe the designers choose the right material for dampers.
Regarding vintage LOMC: For some reason my experience is also positive, remember sealed suspension on FR-7f series ? It will last forever, just another great example that old is gold. Fantastic cartridge!
Everyone can check cartridge suspension visually, if a cartridge is not a low rider (which is a bad sign) then its compliance can be measured with Hi-Fi News Test LP on your particular tonearm. I’ve seen a few samples out of 60 samples with softened suspension, but not with stiffer suspension.
Audio-Technica MM cartridges are fine for Technics tonearm. I have never ever seen an AT moving magnet cartridge with deteriorated suspension, even 30 y.o. samples are all great and I’ve tried so many of them.
Now please look at the brand new TopWing super expensive cartridge, this is a low rides and suspension is probably dead or it's normal? Hard to tell. Here is the review. The cost of this brand new High-End cartridge is $16500 and it looks like the suspension already collapsed.
@dsper The one thing that isn't getting mentioned here is that your cartridge is beyond its freshness date.
The cantilever has a suspension which fails over time. It perishes and might get really stiff or might simply melt. Either way the cartridge will sound wrong- no bass, harsher highs, possibly poor tracking. If the cartridge has a replaceable stylus you replace it. If not you get the cartridge rebuilt or replaced.
It ***DOES NOT MATTER*** if the cartridge was stored for a while- that's a pretty good guarantee that it won't sound right years on! Sort this matter out before any other investments, else you'll be dealing with the same issue as you've already seen.
Its also worthy of addressing how the cartridge is loaded and that sort of thing, but not worth discussing now since the cartridge has to be dealt with right now.
I am using an AT150mlx that is probably too heavy for the light weight Technics tonearm. It might have 100 hours on it from about five years ago. I suspect that I have to do a better job of aligning it as the channels were not balanced and will try it again.
In the meantime, I am using an Ortofon Pro S, that was outfitted with a better stylus by KABUSA. Its depth of field is better than my digital but the width is much worse. Not sure that it is appreciably smoother than my DAC.
My phono pre is a Jolida JD9 modified with better op amps and capacitors. Those two mods made a big difference. However, I should take another look at what tubes I am running in it. They could be part of the problem...
I had an Oppo 105 modified by Ric Schultz and thought it was lifeless in my system; which was Maggie 3.6, Coda CS amp, and PL Prologue Premium preamp. I moved to a Hegel HD25, which was much better than the Oppo due in part to better bass response. I switched to Thiel CS5 speakers and the Hegel did not play nice with the Thiel tweeters. I then switched to a Theta ProBasic III, based on advice from another Thiel owner, which proved to be much more musical and smoother than the Hegel. I added a PS Audio PWT and the musicality improved even more.
I have AT150mlx with Clearaudio Bluemotion and Satisfy arm. AT150mlx certainly sounds far better than my Oppo 105D and Esoteric UZ1. For example, I have both CD and LP for Patricia Barber. Simply there is no comparison. I suspect the phono preamp may be a problem? Or, the cartridge is worn out? Or, your LPs have problem? Or, it could be phono cable. I have two phono pre: Magi phonomenal and built-in phono in Plinius M16P. Both produces excellent sound from AT150mlx. I've had two of them so far. The only downside is it is no longer manufactured and its price went up significantly for the last two years or so.
Honestly, I have no idea what mijostyn is talking about when it comes to vibration. But i want to remind you that Technics SL1200 mk2 - mk7 turntables are often used on the dancefloor where at least 200-500 (sometimes even 10 000) people are dancing in front of the deejay booth and it wasn’t a problem to reproduce vinyl using those turntables, even when the nearest sound system is 100 000 Watts.
It’s hard to understand that an audiophile alone can cause a problem sitting in his listening chair at home unless there is an earthquake in his town.
P.S. You can add isonoe feet to your Technics if you like.
dsper, you are not alone. Your problem now is that you are using the digital as a reference. Before you had none. Ignorance is bliss. If you have a treasured collection of LPs and want to hear them in all their glory then you will have to look for a turntable/arm combination that does not impinge or allow impingement on the cartridge's ability to do it's job. It has to isolate the cartridge from the environment and itself or you will be hearing all sorts of vibration that has nothing to do with music. IMHO you would be best served by a belt driven turntable with an isolating suspension. The Sota Sapphire is a standout. There are any number of fine arms that will work. You want the motor as far away from the cartridge as you can get it. Putting it right under the cartridge has to be one of the silliest concepts man has yet to come up with only eclipsed by the flying aircraft carrier.
If you want to compare digital and analog then you need to compare true analog (not a reissues) and in this comparison you will not be able to find a digital equivalent, because the master was analog. The best analog recordings are from the 70's and 80's in my opinion. Some 50's and 60's also good, but it'as different style of music and different production. In my opinion analog was on its peak in the early 80's.
If you're listening to new music produced/mastered digitally then you don't need vinyl at all.
If you're listening to original records produced? mastered and pressed in analog era then you don't need digital at all.
Digitally remastered reissues are NOT analog anymore once it was converted to digital and pressed back on vinyl it's something else, but not an analog records anymore.
Just to be clear, can you please describe what you mean by full rewire? Is it more than just the tonearm rewire?
I mean internal tonearm wires (4 of them) and external shielded phono cable. Can can offer you his own, but you can buy better cables (not expensive) from Cardas or Discovery. If you like silver there are silver cables available too (from Audio Note or VdH for example).
Signal Cable Silver Resolution (Shielded) PHONO cable with separate ground wire is here. Any length you want, great price! KLE RCA are the best.
Unfortunately Zu Audio Mission Phono RCA for promotional (auction) price from the manufacturer on ebay are sold. It was the best copper cable for under $100.
I don't know how knowledgeable you are with analog but I did not know ANYTHING and I'm learning.
Hi liusma31,
I have read a lot but not sure how much I "know" about analog and turntables. Tonearms, cartridges, and compliance and their interrelationship is not working knowledge for me. I just recently downloaded an old Absolute Sound simple cartridge alignment tool from the net and tried it. I can hear an improvement with a better focused sound and suspect that I got the stylus more to the center of the record groove.
The best upgrade you can do for your old Technics after full rewire is a top quality perfecty matched MM cartridge and a phono stage. Your AT is OK, did you ever change tonearm internal wires? This is a weak point of all old Technics, you have to rewire it. Also there are much better cartridges than AT MLX series.
Hi Chakster,
Just to be clear, can you please describe what you mean by full rewire? Is it more than just the tonearm rewire?
I was thinking KABUSA could rewire the tonearm but never got to it when I dove into digital. Not sure I can do the the tonearm myself, but for what, $30, I can buy the wire and try. Not a lot to lose and I could always still send it to KABUSA.
Also, understand your thoughts on a new cartridge. The AT 150 MLX seems a bit slanted to the treble and a bit thin to my ears. I also have Ortofon Concorde S40 that I find is too dark and closed in to my ears.
Any specific suggestions?
My old pair of Technics SL1210 mk2 (heavily upgraded) is still here since 1995. Still perfectly working.
Technics SP-10 mkII is what you need, this is what I bought for my High-End setup when I was bored with upgraded SL1210 mkII.
My next one was Luxman PD-444 and this is the best turntable in the world in my opinion :)
Denon DP-80 is another option.
I have them all (in multiple samples).
Just stay with DIRECT DRIVE!
The best upgrade you can do for your old Technics after full rewire is a top quality perfecty matched MM cartridge and a phono stage. Your AT is OK, did you ever change tonearm internal wires? This is a weak point of all old Technics, you have to rewire it. Also there are much better cartridges than AT MLX series.
I was a fanboy for Technics back in the day, but since the SL1200 I have changed out speakers, amps, preamps, transports, and DACs.
Just seems to be a fair ask at this point in my system evolution to consider what an upgrade in turntable (and cartridge) could look like. My 1000 plus albums are waiting...
dsper my apologies I wasn't very helpful I have your same TT and used it for some years. Then went on digital rig build. I learned about reconstruction filters, modulators, formats etc and build a digital rig. Roon and HQplayer embedded running on one server sending audio to a minimalistic industrial PC with USB, SATA and other systems disabled, no fan, celeron CPU for less EMI, connected to a Denafrips Terminator and then to my tube preamp and amps. Software has been a rotation of Audiolinux, Gentooplayer, Euphony and so on. The electrical pieces were powered by an Uptone JS2 soon coming a Paul Hynes SR4 double regulated. Needless to say my digital sounds amazing so I got the itch to better the analog because I believe analog can be magical. Came to the analog forums and here you will find many helpful individuals, brilliant some of them, others with a lot experience.With them I learned that I knew nothing, I just had a Technics turntable using a standard cartridge with the Stevenson alignment but without all the parameters to be properly set. There is so much more to analog that I did not know. I don't know how knowledgeable you are with analog but I did not know ANYTHING and I'm learning. Right now I can't help much except that I know it takes a lot of time invested (and some money too) to learn how to implement a proper analog rig but it is an exciting prospect, at least to me. VTA, VTF, Stevenson, Baerwald, Logfren, MM, MC, LOMC it is an avalanche or physical parameters which to me makes it even more interesting, how we have been listening and perfecting music playing with physical parameters not bits it is really remarkable and the work of artisans. Anyway I'm still on this path I hope I can report back my findings with my comparisons in a month or two. Good luck
Well I'm on your same boat, my Technics 1210 mk5 is for sale, I understand the new Technics 1200G with the new tonearm, platform plinth etc it is an audiophile class product, in the meantime I got a highly regarded Luxman pd-444 on which I will use a few different tonearms and cartridges. My digital bested my Technics too.
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