I just read through this entire thread. Very helpful information. I am considering adding a second Earthquake MKV-12 to run in stereo, or sell it and buy one JL 113. Based on what I read above I am going for the second Earthquake - and can always change to JL later.
Any opinions on this move would be much appreciated.
My speakers are Dynaudio C1 with Pass X250 amp. |
Wow, thanks for the education, this message board has helped me understand many things I didn't know. I notice the Rel's sell instantly when they come up on audiogon, JL audio sell very well also, their seems to be more JL subs available on the used market this makes it easier to find a good deal. I am guessing more JL subs were sold in the market resulting in more sale availability on the used market. I will start with one sub and then move on to two. Thanks for all the help. |
JL subs have a wonderful on board room correction system that helps you dial the sub in for seamless perfect sound. Also you can run the output of a JL112 to another JL112 and let the same set up program dial in both woofers.
I own the 112. I have one in my theater and one in my music system. Both are excellent for music. One night I moved the 112 (UUgh heavy) into the music room and dialed both in and tried two subs. Two were definitely better than one.
For years I was an anti-sub guy. Now I won't have a system without one. I hope this helps. |
My room size is 20x15 and I've owned 2 REL subs, the Storm II and then I switched to a REL Stentor III. I heard about JL audio from car stereo days and was curious.Long story short I sold the Stentor III and changed to dual JL F113's and have never looked back!Sad part about it was after arguing with Sumiko back and forth they finally replaced the internal amp on the Stentor which is a known problem.They tried to tell me it was my Levinson amp causing the problem although it had functioned without a hiccup for 3 years prior to that. REL's are musical but lack the output to really bring the feeling home especially with HT. The REL amps were never designed for high output HT or music.Two REL's would be great but outrageously expensive.My Fathoms are the most dynamic and musical sub I've had in my system and I've gone through a few to get where I'm at presently.If I could compare the two in closing it would be the REL will reinforce that last octave of bass missing with most speakers. The JL will also do that but add a tad bit more realisim due to it having the ARC function that helps smooth the bass out in the listening position. |
Trance,
I spent about 18 months auditioning, researching and finally integrating subs into my 2 channel system. Here are some things that I learned along the way.
(Where judgements are involved, all are IMHO)
Even though one great sub may well have better deep bass output capabilities than two good subs, two good subwoofers will almost always outperform one great sub for music - simply because:
a) Placement flexibility of 2 subs allows you to site them where their room cancellations do not overlap. The result, if you take the time to do that right, is smoother bass response.
and
b) Most music will not really test a single good sub, let alone a great one. For most music, a sub that's designed for 30hz at your preferred SPLs in a space similar in size to your listening room is plenty good for music.
Usually, that means one good, solid subwoofer is sufficient to produce all the clean, deep bass you need for music, but 2 subs allow you to better deal with room induced frequency irregularities. In sum, smoothing the room trumps deep bass output capability for most music applications. Again, MHO.
Of course, your particular taste might be one of the few exceptions (also see pipe organ fans) to the "one sub is enough for clean, deep bass" rule, however, depending on your room size and preferred SPLs.
Note: The statement re: "clean output" assumes relative insensitivity to THD in the deep bass region. You don't want to see THD #s for most subs below about 30hz. At high SPLs they are almost uniformly horrible. The better models from JL, Genelec, and SVS are among the few that really handle that test. Most models from the other popular makes (REL, Velodyne, etc) produce poor test results for THD below 50hz, or so. Fortunately, as FR drops and distortion increases, I find myself less able to hear the problem. I once used two Velo 8" subs in my system. At or below 40 to 50hz at my usual SPLs, test results indicate that they were probably producing as much THD as signal, but it wasn't really distracting to me. Until I substituted superior subs into the system, anyway, then there was no going back. YMMV.
One other note, I also believe that JL makes a GREAT (not just good) subwoofer for music and that the 112 and 113 were hard to distinguish from each other in the medium large room in which I compared them.
So, IMHO...
1) go for 2 subs
2) Two 112s are almost certainly more than up to the task
and
3) When Aldavis says RELs measure notoriously poorly, he is being kind.
Some other things to chew on:
Test results are available for most models on line at HTshack.com Check them out - a little data never hurt anyone.
Given budget considerations, I chose a pair of Rythmik subs, which are great to a little below 35hz at very high SPL in a very large space. This is plenty for my taste in music. They can't match the JLs down in the low 20s (tho they will handily outperform most REL models in this frequency range), but are much less expensive than JLs. A pair of these is probably sufficient for your needs, too, but with the usual "trance music" caveat.
SVS makes a great product that is suitable for your application, more reasonably priced than JL and IMHO definitely worth checking out.
If you can hadle the cost of two 112s, go for it. If you're working to a budget, a pair of SVS (or - to a possibly lesser extent - Rythmiks) will probably outperform a single 113.
As to integrating Subwoofers effectively for music:
a) provided that the subwoofer is properly damped for use use with your main speakers (usually, tho not always, this means a sealed design)
and
b) assuming that you are crossing high enough to keepp the main soeakers in their "comfort zone"
seamless integration has less to do with the particular sub and more to do with placement, crossover characteristics, and phase matching. For this purpose a sub controller is tremendously helpful. I use a Velodyne SMS-1 (and a NHT X-2 to low cut my main speakers and keep the SMS out of the main signal path). Unless you end up with truly mediocre (or worse) subwoofers, the SMS-1 or similar device (Audyssey and SVS/Audyssey market competing models) will allow you to acheive great integration.
Good Luck,
Marty |
Why not Dynaudio subs? Are they inferior? |
Thanks for all the advice, It seems that Jl Audio and Rel will be on my list for Subs. Rel B3 and Jl Audio F112. Two subs are better than one, makes allot of sense however My living room will look like an electronic store. Compact furniture designs is preferred, Rel B3 in Cherry looks nice. For now I would be happy finding the most musical Sub to go along with my Dynaudio Confidence 5 I would even sacrifice earthshaking Bass for musicality, My walls are thin anyway and my neighbor would not be happy, lucky for me she is a flight attendant and is not home that often. |
Trance, your room size is very good. I could live with that and make the room sing easier. Harder to control a bigger room. Ceiling height makes a big difference from what I have experienced. I like that mine are 10'. Drop JL a note on your cubic foot area and see what they recommend.
Rel just came out with a new top line sub that is built with a solid enclosure and a beefed up frame along with a new 12" carbon fiber driver. They must have built this to try and contend with the Velodyne DD18 ( very good ) and the F113. Both the Velo and JL have there strengths when comparing. Demoing these two subs with a dedicated drum test track is like being in front of the drums. I found the F113 to be stellar in this area. Very fast and controlled is what I hear. |
Personally, I would go for the pair of F110s. Two subwoofers are far more accurate than one subwoofer because of the manner in which they energize the room. While Missioncooney likes his REL's, I have been very unimpressed with them when I have heard them and frankly think they are overpriced.
You might also want to check out a pair of Rythmik F12G subs while you are looking. They are a very musical, servo controlled 12" subwoofer and run $1350 plus shipping for a pair. Tyler Acoustics uses the Rythmik kit with his own enclosure for his subwoofers. |
It isn't common knowledge that Rels are better than JL Audio for 2 channel. The sealed Jl's are fantastic for music. I have had both in my home and the Jl's were clearly better than the stadiums I tried. Rels measure notoriously poorly. Whether this means anything sonically is up to you to decide. I have nothing against Rel. I actually like them. Their new Gibraltar G1 ($4,000) just came out which uses a carbon fiber 12 inch driver in a sealed, curved cabinet. I would definately check one out. It uses speaker level connections like the other Rels which minimizes the impedance challange 2 low level JL subs could present to many preamps. I use a balanced tube buffer in my setup. If you go the JL route I would use the smaller F 112 which is easier to integrate than the 113. The best measured results come from the newer F 212 which uses a new driver and has vanishingly low distortion. It's 6K and so would be a substantial investment for a pair. - jim |
IMO, I have to diagree with the above posters.Its pretty common knowledge (assuming you just read threads on this site and havent had both at home like myself) that JL subs are better for HT and Rel for 2 channel.Im not really sure why you would not try a Rel,these guys dont have Dynaudio speakers/I do, so the imput really doesnt apply.I like to listen to those have been there done that..but thats just me.Enjoy the 110! |
Thanks for all the advice, I might have to go for two F110 if that is the case. I have no space and electric outlets for two large subs. Must be nice to have a large home :-) |
As mentioned earlier, I had a 112 then went with two 113's. To me two are far more superior than one. I can't say the the 112 sounded worse than the 113, on it's own ( single sub drive) However, I have played the 113 solo and and a pair several times. There is NO comparison period. I agree that the JL's are superb with music. I can't comment with video and shaking walls doesn't do anything for me either. Get two of whatever and let it be done with ....... MHO |
Trance, Forgot to mention that the JL's like any other good sub can shake your walls if want them to. For movies it is fun but the JL's are built more for music. They are extremely tight when you get them right and create an uncanny black background. |
Trance, I have two F113's with Tyler Acoustic D3's which integrated very easily in my big room. One sub was still good but adding the second was the ticket. Two F112's dialed in for your room size would be all you need. Both the F113 and F112 are extremely musical and fast. Start and stop on a dime. Once they are dialed into your liking you won't even know they are there. I would do two F112's before one F113 if that is even an option. Also, hearing or feeling a difference between these two subs is going to really depend on what is going on in the room. You are moving air inside that cube so one is going to sound a little different than the other. At 80hz you may not be able to tell but anything below 40hz you more than likely will feel the difference. You can control the response of the room easier with two subs as well and it won't affect the neighbors anymore than with one unless you want to. |
Can Rel still be serviced in the USA if it breaks? |
Trance,IMO I think what was just said sums it up,if you want to "shake the walls" then JL is the choice hands down.If looking for seemless 2 channel, 1 Rel will do it.There is no need to run a pair,waste of money..B series or an older/larger model(and thats coming from a person who has Dynaudios and tried both!). |
I've had zero problems getting my JL to disappear. It integrates seamlessly.
Whatever brand you get, plan on getting two. Maybe not now, but down the road. Two will integrate much better, there will be less resonance issues and so forth. Jim Smith of Get Better Sound fame doesn't even want to try to optimize a room with only one sub. Says it's very difficult to do so.
With that in mind, I'd go with the F112. Unless your room is gigantic, one F112 will do the job. Then, you'll be able to get back to getting the clone sub faster given that it's substantially cheaper than the F113. The lone F112 I have (have not gotten around to getting the clone yet) literally shakes my walls (that's not metaphorically- I have pictures on the wall that get off kilter when I listen loud)- even when it's not being cranked up. My room is pretty good size, too. 19 x 13 with 10 foot ceilings. |
I'll second Missioncoonery. We run a pair of 113s in the media room, Rel Stadium III for the music system. Dialed in, the Rel is 100% seamless when paired with a full range speaker and does magical things with imaging and soundstage. The JLs are frequently noticeable, but more satisfying in the kick and room-pressurization front. |
Which REL Model are you referring to? |
IMO,Rel works better with Dynaudio than JL.I tried a 112 with my C4s in the same room size.It wasnt as seemless as the Rel I have.For 2 channel Rel is your ticket with those speakers. |
I had the chance to demo both the F113 and the F112 with a C4 setup and frankly I could not tell the difference (in music). I got the 112 (notably cheaper) in my HT/2 channel system. My goal was good solid LFE for movies and a tunable sub that would help in music without having to mess around in switchover. the 112 was good enough for me in HT and like I said for music I could not tell the difference. Now the disclaimer. I listened to a variety of alternative and such but with hip hop I have no doubt that the 113 would be better. You can tell the difference in ht between the two with ease but both are stellar. No experience with dual sub setups, sorry. In a nutshell, if you want thumping bass for music go 113, if you want more subdued or perhaps slightly faster go 112. if on a budget go 112. Now I just need to fix the picture frame that my 112 knocked off the wall during ironman last week. Not a puny sub. Luck. |
Can someone confirm the f112 being more musical than the F113 on a one on one comparison? I understand that 2 subs will give me the best results but money is tight right now and I cannot see myself buying 2 subs right now, however I am missing the low octave and would like a sub that can accommodate my Dynaudio Confidence 5. I can buy ONE f113 or One F112 and would really like to know which of the two is more musical, I read once that the F113 is better for movies while the F112 better for music, trying to confirm this cause I would naturally go with the F113 being it's bigger and more powerful. Thanks |
I run (2) 113's with Usher BE10's. I agree that two is better than one. I started out with a single 112 and moved up to the 113 (pair). The 113 is superior to the 112. I only use the subs in a 2 channel system. I suggest the 113's if you can swing it. |
Better off with two f112's, when the levels are set and dialed in, two subs will give a noticeable better balance. The potential is there for more boom boom to disturb the neighbors but if they are dialed in to blend with the mains and the levels are set properly two subs do not get louder just sound better. My room is 11x26x9, I had a f113 a couple of years ago, I think the two f/110's I have now are a better balance in my system with Focal 1037 BE's. I just do 2 channel music, vinyl and CD.
Mike |
Am using two F112's for music with excellent results.
Here is an old post found in the discussion forums-
08-08-09: Soundsbeyondspecs
I called JL Tech support about this very question about a year ago. The tech rep I spoke to said most employees choose 112's. He said they feel the 112's are more musical and easier to integrate in most listening environments. The rep really seemed to favor pairing up 112's best for music. It seemed to be a purely subjective recommendation.
Being JL tech's, I felt it was JL bias, yet, a fairly accurate read on the question. Either would be great properly set-up. |
