Jazz for aficionados

Ella? Alpha and Omega, of Jazz singing.

Cheers

The Frogman & O-10:
It usually takes me a few tries for me to clearly get my thoughts together.

Vermont: you are right about the lyrics being vital to the song being about vermont. My point was, if we had never heard of Moonlight, and just heard the music without the words, would we think of Vermont? I don't see why we should.

Ella is singing the song so she HAS to do the words and interpet with mental images and concepts of Vermont in mind.

Houston Person was under no such restrictions. The only thing that he had to consider was the music / melody. He had a free hand to blow as he saw fit or felt.

I.E. the song HAS TO BE about vermont only when you sing the words. Otherwise it's just a very nice tune in the category of Autumn Leaves etc..... that Jazz guys like to improvise over.

All of the above could be, and probably is, BS. But that is what I meant in my post about putting too much emphasis on the Name / lyrics of the tune, in relation to the Houston person effort.

BTW,
Sun Ra: I have since learned that he had recently suffered a stroke before they made the Billy Bang recording. Probably accounted for his lack luster playing. Sad.

Cheers

Orpheus, my next music contribution was going to be Ella doing Billie's Bounce. I completely agree with your comments about the appropriateness of scatting some times and not others, and this relates in key ways to the earlier discussion about Moonlight In Vermont. Ella was not only respectful of the song (as you point out), but was (IMO) the only only singer that could scat a solo that doesn't leave me saying "that was pretty good; for a singer". She could scat a solo very bit as swinging and in control of the MUSICAL vocabulary as a good instrumentalist.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLep2fmY6sw

Rok, at first I was confused by your post.

****I feel you and The Frogman might be putting too much emphasis on the name of the tune. I don't think of Vermont at all.****

Huh!? The tune IS about Vermont. You can't remove the lyrics from the equation. A great song is a marriage of melody and lyrics, and the message can be sent by the lyrics, the tune, or both. In Moolight In Vermont, while I don't know what Vermont is supposed to sound like, I think the tune, by itself, conveys a feeling that is similar to (and definitely compliments) the lyrics. It's a beautiful song, and interestingly, has no rhymes.

****You gotta name it something. Something people can easily remember and relate to.****

The name usually relates to the lyrics. Usually, a composer is inspired by an event, person, or place to convey the feeling in song, and the name is part of the lyrics. You may find this interesting, with Herbie Hancock speaking about the creation and naming of his tune "Watermelon Man":

http://bluespianorevealed.com/herbie-hancock-and-the-origin-of-the-watermelon-man/

Rok, there's a vocalist who's more current than Ella, who likes to scat a lot, and inflect her own vocal gymnastics into a song like a horn player. She's a marvelous jazz singer, but she doesn't respect the classics, which is something Ella always did. She would never scat on a classic song when the object is to deliver the emotion of the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swnwW6QdP9A

Ella made my point for me.

Enjoy the music.

O-10:
One last VERMONT comment. I feel you and The Frogman might be putting too much emphasis on the name of the tune. I don't think of Vermont at all. You gotta name it something. Something people can easily remember and relate to.

Which brings up the question: Why and How are Jazz tunes named?

Cheers

O-10,
I had to laugh out loud at your Miles Davis story. I could almost see it.

Cheers

******Frogman wins by a TKO.*******

Curses, foiled again! I was robbed! Rematch?

O-10, as usual you have restored order and reason.

Cheers

Today's Listen:

Billy Bang (violin) -- A Tribute To Stuff Smith
with / Sun Ra (piano), John Ore (bass), Andrew Cyrille (drums)

Stuff Smith was one of the premier Jazz Violinist. Died in 1967.

As the title says, this a tribute to him from Billy Bang. All the tunes are standards, which is unusal considering the lineup. Most of these guys played with Sun Ra before or after this recording date.

Bang plays well throughout. In fact he dominates all the tunes. I had to listen twice to concentrate on Sun Ra's contribution. It's there, just not up front. He may have already been in countdown for launch to Alpha Centauri!

These guys are known as Free or avant garde Jazz players, but during this session they acted right. Everything from Jerome Kern to Duke Ellington.

I am not sure the players were a good match. I think Bang would have been better served with more conventional boppers in the rhythm section. But, it is an enjoyable disc. Check it out.

Recommended, if you like Violin in your Jazz.

For some reason they (jazz violinist), all remind me of Stephane Grappelli and Sweet Georgia Brown, Which in turn reminds me of the Globetrotters, Which is not the worst thing a person can be reminded of!

Cheers

Music Lovers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWIGu6-r67Y

Not Jazz, but a great song by a great singer, that some how evaded my sensory net until now.

Listen from the beginning and pat attention to the piano at 2:18 - 2:19. I always smile and say YES!!!!!.

It's little things like this that make music so wonderful to me. The small nuances.

Cheers

I was a Toots fan since Midnight Cowboy

Frogman,
"Affinity" with Bill & Toots. I am a huge fan!
Toots recently turned 91 on 4/29.

******That was not the point*******

I know it was not your point. Just getting in a plug for the good folks at Mt Horeb. :)

Cheers

****BTW, there are much worst places to be musically, than a Baptist church. Some good stuff there.****

GREAT stuff there. That was not the point.

Cheers.

The Frogman:

They, Smith & Getz, seemed to be focused on playing 'moonlight in vermont'. Almost, but not quite, note for note as a singer might sing it.

I think Person and Defrancesco just used it as a good place to start.

Although Person went further away from the melody as the tune progressed, I never forgot they were playing 'Moonlight in Vermont'. To me, this is the genius of Jazz. Besides, Defrancesco was there.

On his Cd 'Boppin' at the Bluenote', Jon Hendricks does the Lerner & Loewe tune 'Get Me To The Church On Time', from My Fair Lady.

When he finished he said, "I bet THEY didn't know THEY wrote THAT!! The THEY being, Lerner & Loewe. The THAT being his 'take' on 'church on time'.

Cheers

BTW, there are much worst places to be musically, than a Baptist church. Some good stuff there.

Fight! Fight! I love a good brawl; Rok versus Frogman, that even sounds like a thriller. Rok said Johnny Smith didn't have enough tension and dynamic range. Frogman said Johnny was perfect, and Houston Person had too much.

Before jumping into this brawl, I went back to you tube. There was Johnny on this beautiful LP cover with a full moon behind him, in front of a snow covered Vermont, and I can just picture the "ski trails". His guitar, and Getz smooth tenor sax have me gliding down those ski trails on a moonlit night; all of this captures the song. In totality, this ranks with the most perfect "Moonlight in Vermont's" I've ever heard.

Frogman wins by a TKO.

Rok, if you changed the name to "Groovy times in Vermont" or "Groovy Times at That Church in Vermont" ( that sanctified yell by Joey on organ took us there), you would win by KO. Better luck next time.

Enjoy the music.

Classic case of "different strokes for different folks". To me, there is no comparison between the Johnny Smith and the Houston Person versions of Moonlight In Vermont. The Smith is perfect in it's restraint and simplicity and in the soloists's ability to play the "changes" while NEVER letting the listener forget the melody of the tune, thus creating a mood which is perfect for the tune....moonlight in Vermont. Very tasty playing.

The Person version, for me, has TOO MUCH and gratuitous "dynamic range and tension" (good terms, Rok). Person doesn't even make all the changes (one loses the tune) and does a lot of meandering with way too many fast note flourishes that not only are not necessary, but are inappropriate for a tune like this IMO; especially when they are played with blues inflections and note choices. Huh?! Are we outside enjoying the moonlight, or are we in a Baptist church?

While Johnny Smith surprises with an occasional and rare flourish of notes, Person creates a feeling of "enough already".

For me, a person, and a person's music, are two entirely different things; at this time, it's necessary for us to make that distinction because I would like for us to get into current jazz, while at the same time we discuss past masters. If it's necessary to bring up an "incendiary" name for the sake of comparison of his music with other current or past jazz musicians, we must restrict that conversation to the music in isolation, because that's the way I see all music. When we want to talk about a person that's one thing, if we want to talk about that persons music, that's another. Is this possible? If not, let's just forget it.

Barbara Dennerlein is a new interesting artist who I've not heard before now, I think her group has the "dynamism" that Rok's referred to. I like her energy and style, I see a diamond in the rough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa-nKS89ATI

Enjoy the music.

Rok, dynamic range and tension are perfect descriptions for me, and I know exactly what you mean; those two terms are also technical aspects of the recording. Since that's an old recording, it's difficult to separate the technical aspects of "dynamic range", from the musical aspects which create the tension.

On "Moonlight in Vermont", I read the comments in regard to Houston Person, and they all spoke for me.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I bought that LP when it came out. Toots said that's his best ever, even though he wasn't the leader. There are so many aspects to that one LP, and I've enjoyed them all, but your take on the music always adds something new.

Enjoy the music.

O-10:
The Johnny Smith performance was great. I listened to a few more of his. Misty was one. His playing was flawless to my ear. However, I have been trying to figure out why some music, even if the music is perfectly played, just seems to lack something. I think I know what it is now.

Dynamic Range and Tension. I hope these descriptive terms pass muster with the Frogtman and The learsfool.

I would try this Moonlight In Vermont: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ikl8pnHz6k

and you can also youtube Vermont by Billie Holiday. Her voice is almost gone, but not quite. It will grab you.

These youtube thingys are getting to be habit forming to me. The make it so easy to compare artists.

I listen to the Emily Remier cut, and then off to the side was a clip of Wes playing with Monk and Coltrane. Although I didn't see or hear Coltrane.

But the difference was striking. Of course not being able to match Wes and Monk is nothing to be ashamed of.

It is very sad that she died so soon. The girl on the B-3 is great also. I hope she is still with us. What a lot of these folks need is a cooking rythm section.

Cheers

One of the most unique sounds in jazz, Toot's Thielemans' playing is incredible on this recording. One of leader Bill Evans' least talked about records, but definitely one to have.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iOrFAxdiCnw

Orpheus10, I loved the Johnny Smith cut. What a beautiful player! Amazingly relaxed, but very deliberate and very soulful with a gorgeous sound. His feel is reminescent of Dexter Gordon's ballad playing; behind the beat but always secure and confident. Stan Getz is brilliant as usual; a great pairing. One of the nicest things that I have heard in a while. Thank you.

Rok, Sorry about that. Emily Remler's music will live on.

How about a really good new album, by Winard Harper, called Coexist? Feeling any better?

Acman3:
I didn't realize she had passed. That is sad. Seems like the really good ones die young.
Thanks for the info. From excitement to sadness in five minutes.

Rok, Emily Remler and Barbara Dennerlein "Stormy Weather Blues" was boss, they're on my list. The best thing about new jazz is that it can be recorded so much better.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, sit down and read Emily's bio.

We also have to give a shout out to Barbara Dennerfein on B-3 organ. Good stuff. check her 'boogie woogie' youtube thingy.

Not earth shattering, but it's so good to see young players play this type of stuff.

Cheers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGVXr4Ji49o

Had to send this. A german Drummer namer jo jo meyer!! it has to be worth a listen. This is so wonderful to see YOUNG folks paying their repects to the past.

She is good.

Cheers

Isochronism, good tip.
Not only is she a talented young, and beautiful, Jazz artist. I found a music teacher also. :)

Now this woman has her head in the right place. I will have to check out more of her stuff. I like the way she talks about Jazz. Finally a promising YOUNG player.
BEBOP lives!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j0qLksgXDE

Cheers

True story: I was in a funereal limousine In Miles Davis's home town, and someone tried to lighten the grim journey by starting a conversation about Miles music. The chatter was going back and forth, when the grieved widow chimed in "I remember Miles, he was that little dark skinned kid who was always trying to blow the trumpet." After that, there was total silence for the rest of the journey.

David Benoit "Waiting For Spring"
featuring Emily Remler

Isochronism, Any time I see Emily Remler or Philip Catherine's name on a record I buy it.

I would think that most of the audience was there because they are fans of the bass player, Wojtek Mazolewski's band. I can only hope they knew who Dennis Gonzalez is.

Mr Gonzalez is a music teacher in Dallas. He travels the world with his band, sons Aaron and Stephen, to play with like minded musicians. His recorded work is usually thought out and does not fall apart into noise ( not that there is anything wrong with that) ;) you can hear a lot of Miles in his trumpet playing.

No Rok, he will never be as popular as Kenny G.

Now back to your regular programing.

And now with a break from our sponsors ...........
Emily Remler "Firefly" & "East To Wes"
Both with a rating of:
2 Wes Montgomery Thumbs UP!!!
Available on stereo LP and CD at all your local Korvettes stores
Now back to our pre-scheduled Debate Session.

*******Rok, I was wrong about that music, it originated from Dallas Texas, not Poland********

Now I am depressed! Didn't sound like anything I have ever heard in Texas. Myabe that's the reason they were in Poland! :) I suggest they stay there.

My 'review' schedule, and train of thought, were totally disrupted by my attempts to 'review' LULU. Blame it on The Frogman. I will be back on track and LULU will be back on the rack, today Time to get back to Jazz. With a Classical question for The Learsfool from time to time, if that's ok.

Cheers

Messrs. Frogman & Learsfool:

I mentioned LvB's 7th due to the horn playing. I was trying to say, that I could 'blissfully' enjoy them all, while you might be grimacing and frowning on a few. Seeing as how you are a horn player.
This is a example of the 'ignorance is bliss' thingy.

BTW, the horn is One of my favorite orchestral instruments. Must be that childhood Lone Ranger thing.

Cheers

Frogman, and Learsfool, although I've enjoyed music since I could hear, I never learned so much about it as now. I also realize that as much as you both know about music, my friend was beyond belief. I feel like the kid in one of those old science fiction movies, "But I saw them, I tell you I saw them!". Whatever it is, when it's beyond belief, nobody believes it.

He looked hip, he walked hip, he talked hip, he dressed hip, and he did this everyday from the time he got up until the time he went to bed, and he didn't even know it.

He was "practicing" on those gigs he played when he was living with me.. Although I was a young man then, and I'm an old man now, I just discovered this. When I was trying to prove to a local musician that I mentioned in a previous post, how good he was, I bought every recorded note I could find, but nothing even came close to the music I heard.

Some people have a photographic memory, I have a phonographic memory. Every note I hear gets recorded. The way he mesmerized the crowds at those gigs was truly astounding, and I always felt like just another fan; his performances were like snowflakes, no two were alike. No two grown men can live together for 3 months with out having arguments, and living with him was like living with a tornado; that's the way creative genius's are. When I was seated at a table in the club, they were all forgotten and I was just another mesmerized fan. That word is the only one that describes a state of being totally spellbound, "I hear it, but I don't believe it".

We heard and saw him "practicing". He was trying this new music out on us, that's why it's not recorded anywhere. He died before recording this music, that's why I can't find it and don't have it.

Hi Rok2id - would learning more be a double-edged sword? As Frogman said, it might, however what you appreciate and enjoy, your enjoyment of will only increase. Also, you would never have to listen with the kind of critical ear that a professional must. Sometimes it is indeed extremely difficult for us to turn this off. But that is because it is our profession, our very lives. And also, if we are listening to a recording that is our favorite of a particular piece, the joy we get from it is that much greater. One exception is that most musicians do not like to listen to recordings of themselves, at least solo recordings, as it is almost impossible not to be extremely self-critical. I sometimes experience this when I listen to the recordings of all of my orchestra's concerts, which I must do because I am on the broadcast committee that decides which parts of which concerts will make up the radio broadcast of it. I must separate my own performance and that of my section and consider the performance of the group as a whole. So I have become somewhat more used to this than perhaps many other musicians would be.

What I really meant in my post was learning more about the music itself, to increase your enjoyment of it, as opposed to using that knowledge to judge performers. You will enjoy all ten of your Beethoven 7 recordings even more, if you learn more about how the piece is constructed. This is a totally separate thing from any one conductor/orchestra interpretation of the work.

One further comment I would have is that although I understand what you mean when you say going from classical to jazz is like going from the frying pan into the fire, I would say that I think what Frogman and I both have been trying to say is that these genres are not as far apart as most think. It is certainly much closer to it than say rap or techno or things like that. Many forms of jazz are much closer to classical than say rock as well. Jazz is certainly the only other genre of music that comes anywhere near having the harmonic variety that classical does, and melodic variety too, for that matter.

*****post them in declarative sentences *******

A simple, well written declarative sentence, is to an 'audiophile', what kryptonite is to Superman.

Cheers

******FWIW, my main interest is in classical music. While still fairly ignorant, I know just enough to enjoy participating in those threads in which I do have considerable exposure, and some knowledge, so long as the thread is not just about personal favorites and the best of whatever.**********

Going from Jazz to classical is like going from the frying pan into the fire. If you are reluctant to speak your mind in a Jazz forum , you will really be inhibited in a classical setting.
Of course, you can take solace from the fact that most of the other posters probably don't know what they are talking about. So you needn't be bashful. In my 'opinion', few of us are qualified to critique folks like the top tier Orchestras and Conductors. They end up doing just what you seem to be trying to avoid. Just saying what they like. Stating their opinions!! Which is what I do.

Cheers

******My use of the word 'you' was inappropriate. I should have used the word 'one'. My post was not so much about you at all, although I can see why you might have thought so. My apologies.******

No apology required. I thought you were talking to me because it was addressed to me.

Cheers

******Mine is just another opinion, how boring is that.****

Seems as if you are waiting for some GURU to come along and tell you what to like and why you should like it!!
When it comes to what music you like, what could be more important than your opinion based on personal experience. This is music, not gear. No all knowing oracle here.

Besides, people do not run out to buy whatever you recommend, but they might youtube it, to see how thay like it.

Cheers

Rok, now that we've traveled to Poland and many points in between, it's time to get back to the music. I've got to catch up on your reviews, and maybe you can take a look at "Moonlight In Vermont" by Johnny Smith. That is one boss CD. I wore the LP out ages ago, not one bad cut on it.

Enjoy the music.

Rok2id, FWIW not only is my knowledge of Jazz poor, my use of English and my editing skills are even worse.

My use of the word 'you' was inappropriate. I should have used the word 'one'. My post was not so much about you at all, although I can see why you might have thought so. My apologies.

I would agree that it can be fun, and even helpful, to participate in 'conversations' about things one feels enthused and/or knowledgeable. But, when all is said and done, I think it is hard to draw value from posts unless one knows the subject and the persons who are participating. Nothing new there I think.

With music, as with most things 'audio' lots of folks form their opinions based on little more than personal exposure (usually to recordings at home) and/or 'internet gossip' and post them in declarative sentences as if they were based on fact and beyond dispute. Not so common in music threads I think as audio, but it exists non the less. For example, I love to listen to jazz at home. I've got a large collection, but it is all based on the music by artists I like to listen to. I could tell you that I liked Charlie Haden's performances greatly, but if you asked me why, perhaps as compared to the performances by Ray Brown, probably the best explanation I could come up with would be that I find Charlie's music more laid back, Browns more aggressive and forward, Haden's music more contemporary and Brown's more from an earlier era. So, when all is said and done if I were to participate in a thread about Brown and Haden to my way of thinking, if I were actually to do that, I really would have nothing of value to contribute, unless of course for what ever reason you specifically asked me. So I usually do not contribute in threads about jazz. Mine is just another opinion, how boring is that.

FWIW, my main interest is in classical music. While still fairly ignorant, I know just enough to enjoy participating in those threads in which I do have considerable exposure, and some knowledge, so long as the thread is not just about personal favorites and the best of whatever.

Rok, I was wrong about that music, it originated from Dallas Texas, not Poland; that makes it USA born, they just had a polish audience and were performing in Poland.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, what I mentioned in regard to blues and jazz, is more related to culture than to music. Check the Bio's of Elmore James, John Lee Hooker, Little Walter, and Sonny Boy Williamson, not their musical Bio, but childhood Bio. Those guys had some hard times, and they played in what was called "bucket of blood" clubs early in their careers. They were called that because of the bloody fights that often broke out in those places as a result of the (uneducated is putting it mildly) clientele. The jazz culture and the blues culture are as different as night and day in regard to the people, I'm talking 40's and 50's. All of it's very interesting, but not a subject for a music thread.

Enjoy the music.

******"Music appreciation of the 'high end' seems to stop at 'Kind of Blue', and then only if it's an 'audiophile' pressing." If I hear that mentioned one more time I'm going to have twins.********

Sorry. It falls under the 'Sad but True' category.
But don't take my word for it. There is entire thread going on now about just one tune: Kind of Blue.
Truth is stranger than fiction.

Cheers

*****Rok, I'm not sure we're communicating when we talk about "Blues", because I never liked what we called "gut bucket" blues. As a matter of fact we're talking about a whole different culture of people, not just music. Many people who like "gut bucket" blues don't seem to be aware of that.*******

The Blues is that music tha seems to have started in the Mississippi Delta. It gave rise to, at the very least, Jazz, R&B and Rock & Roll.

BTW, The blues is what was missing from the polish thingy.

'Gut Bucket'???? never heard that term before. Several 'types' of blues were 'invented' by the music industry, so that more wannabes could win Grammys. Otherwise John Lee Hooker won win them all. :)

Cheers

******** this is hip, the muse has taken jazz to poland, and I like it.********

You seem to be a lot more enthusiastic about that music than the folks who were there.

Cheers