Charlie mariano -- Why have I not heard of this guy before?? The difference between his 'Darn that Dream' and the one by Dexter Gordon is, one was alto, the other tenor. 'Chloe' was first rate also. Mariano certainly belongs among the top tier players, so why is he an unknown?
Mariano's take on Beethoven's pathetique was astounding! I loved that. Esp being a big LvB fan. I wonder why Jazz guys don't mine classical stuff more. A lot of great melodies there.
I am going to order 'Charlie Mariano Plays'. Done in 1955.
Thanks for bringing Charlie to light.
Cheers
I have a few music questions for later. |
What ever happened to John Purcell? |
I am going to move to modern jazz, only 30 years ago. Jack Dejohnette's
"Album Album" from 1984. Great from start to finish. I was even dancing around Rok. Not a pretty sight.
Frankly, I had not listened to this lost gem since I upgraded my system about 5 years ago. Kind of a eye opener. |
Frogman, Charlie Mariano is one of those musicians, I saw out of the corner my eye; meaning he was around, but I just didn't see him. I also discovered what we wont discuss, in consideration of Rok's sensitivities.
Good "West Coast" jazz is something I'm trying hard to acquire. All the records I had have long gone, and it was something that came and went. I recall me and another aficionado going to movies just to hear the soundtracks; that's where the very best examples of West Coast jazz appeared, as well as TV backgrounds. The movies were so forgettable that I've forgotten them. Maybe you remember some good West Coast jazz?
Enjoy the music.
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Forget the world music stuff that he did. Start with my links and other things from the fifties. |
I heard Marsh Play 'body and soul' with Kenny Drew. I also listen to Marsh and Konitz on "donna lee'. I was surprised. I actually enjoyed them both. I will defer to you on the technical analysis, but if I did not know who was playing, I would have thought it could have been any number of the Blue Note era guys. Thats tall cotton in my world.
I also heard Gonzalo Rubalcaba play 'donna lee'. Both were great. When you can hang with the big boys, there is not much more to be said. The individual differnces and nuances are what makes it all so great.
I will listen to Charlie mariano and report. I see his name is associated with 'world music,' ugh! But I will persevere :)
Cheers |
Another overlooked great, and one of the most interesting and unusual (in sound and concept) tenor players was Warne Marsh. A West Coast player who was one of the main exponents of the Cool School and a protege of the great Lennie Tristano. His use of the piano-less rhythm section was a testament to the great command of harmony that he had. One of the true tests for a jazz player, and considered by the players themselves one of the things that separates the "men from the boys" is the ability to improvise over a tune without the "crutch" of the piano's harmonic underpinnings. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y_8UYtd2K4 |
Charlie Mariano, my favorite alto player, and one who slips under the radar way too often. Clearly a bebopper, he covered a lot of stylistic ground including Middle Eastern (we won't go there again, Rok) in his later recordings. But, his recordings from the fifties are straight-ahead and beautiful. One can hear the Bird influence in the shape of his lines, but unique in the choice of notes within those shapes. A beautiful player: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56m5Vre5h6Uhttp://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RheQyi5KuRA |
"Soul Jazz", that sounds like an appropriate name for the music presented by this aggregation. However, I beg to differ in regard to the home thing. I picture myself seated at a table with a beautiful lady who enjoyed jazz even more than me. Kenney Burrell's resonant guitar is the perfect compliment to Stanley's sax and Shirley's organ. There's nothing like the scintillating feeling you get from live music reverberating in your ear; the most expensive rig can't even come close, and since this is my fantasy, that's the way I'm hearing it.
"The Electrifying Eddie Harris" is my pick. Artists on this album were: Eddie Harris - tenor saxophone, varitone
Melvin Lastie, Joe Newman - trumpet
King Curtis - tenor saxophone
David Newman - tenor saxophone, baritone saxophone
Haywood Henry - baritone saxophone
Jodie Christian - piano
Melvin Jackson - bass
Richard Smith - drums
Ray Barretto, Joe Wohletz - percussion.
"Theme in Search of a Movie" is just that, it sounds like every beautiful musical score you've ever heard, all rolled into one. Some of Eddie Harris's most beautiful music is on this LP, while his most exciting music was with him and Les McCan, on "Compared to What". That music is just as real and relevant today as it was then.
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Stanley Turrentine -- Hustlin'
with/ Shirley Scott, Kenny Burrell, Bob Cranshaw, Otis Finch.
This is what they call 'Soul Jazz'. This Cds is very smooth. Music to think by. No fireworks here, but things really move along. Had a hard day, wanna unwind and just meditate and think? This is the type Jazz you need. Scott (stanley's wife), is very effective on organ.
This is not Jazz for a club or a concert hall. It's Jazz for the home. With someone, it's even better.
They even dip into Dvorak's New World. Dvorak and Lloyd Price? That's covering the waterfront.
Alberta Hunter, Lucille Hegamin, Victoria Spivey -- 'Songs We Taught Your Mother'
Well, we have a Tuba, A clarinet, J.C. Higginbotham and Willie 'The lion' Smith. We know what this means. This is old school music, even by my standards. But, I love it. The word that flashes in my mind when I hear it is, 'Home'. These ladies are up in age, but they sound so natural. All the tracks seem to be the blues, but since it was in the Jazz section of my rack, it will be Jazz for today. Good sound. Recorded in 1961. Very slight tape hiss on some tapes. Not objectionable.
Cheers |
Foster, the key to finding what you're looking for is the time. My recorded version is 7 minutes long while that was 18 minutes long. The biggest difference is Horace's long "unrestrained" solo. That goes for "Senor Blues" as well.
Although I've got a ton of Silver's music, nothing like that. Let me know if you find a CD of what you're looking for.
Enjoy the Music.
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Tired of all this 'serious' discussion? Don't really care what Coltrane was trying to say? Who the hell is Sun Ra? Think 'Free jazz' is a little 'too free'?
I have the cure for what ails ya!
Louis Jordan -- Five Guys Named Moe (vol 2)
I remember hearing this music when I was pre-school age. I remember hearing my parents talk about Jordan. This is just music to be happy. As a bonus, there is a duet with Louis Armstrong. Pops plays a little trumpet also.
On the tune 'Open the Door Richard' I remember hearing the line "I know he's in there, cause I got the clothes on" hahahaha That is as funny today as it was back in the days of the 78rpm records. Get this and forget all your troubles.
Cheers |
Foster, I understand why you said "Oh my Lord!" That was beyond words. I feel fortunate to have heard and seen it. Thank you much.
Enjoy the music. |
I appreciate the sentiment, but there are other members here who are extremely knowledgable in specific and/or general areas of music; either by way of being professional musicians (Learsfool), or having been very devoted to educating themselves on a deep level. There's usually much more to all this than meets the eye.
BTW, liner notes can be great; and many are very well written. My point is simply that they are usually a condensed version of the entire story. When I say don't rely on them, I mean don't rely on them for the "whole truth and nothing but the truth". The purpose of liner notes is to highlight the featured artist and put him/her in a certain context. They usually don't highlight the context itself. |
Frogman:
BTW, I read liner notes after I buy. I don't rely on them to make a purchase. I just like to read details of the recording and the artist. I used to do that with LPs. Liner notes and album art have caused me to buy many LPs. But they only cost $2.50 at that time. That Nat Hentoff has gotten many a dollar out of me.
Cheers |
Well, your 'credentials' are very impressive indeed. You should 'kick' them more often. For now on, I will know from where you speak. So now, we have you on music and almarg on the techie stuff. It's good to have real sources on this site.
I, on the other hand, am still left with my personal preferences in music. And my determination to stand up for what I feel is truth. I withdraw all the historical blunders I may have made. Just one thing in closing, the great Jazz Violinist, Stephane Grappelli, while being interviewed about his career, said that he thought he had made a contribution through his playing, but that he never forgot that, it(Jazz), was a Black Art Form. And that was my only point during the entire 'discussion'.
I am glad to know we have a source (goto guy), for music now. Thanks for the post.
Cheers |
Actually, I have written liner notes for a handful of recordings; but, not for records discussed here, nor are they in this genre.
What I find most frustrating about discussion of music in audiophile circles is that, more times than not, the subjects are discussed at a very superficial level; reliance on liner notes as the "end-all". This stuff, it's history and it's truly proper place in the larger scheme of the art world, runs very very deep. But, there really is very little mystery. It's all pretty well documented; we just have to be willing to do more than cursory reading, and dig a little deeper. It's kind of like audiophiles talking about accuracy in music reproduction when they never go hear live music. Huh?
I don't like to, nor feel the need to, "kick my credentials" (to use your phrase); nor even feel the need to rely on "credentials". But, if you must know, my humble credentials are simply being a professional musician for my entire working life (35 years), attending music conservatory and studying jazz music history (among many other subjects; of course), playing in Latin bands for many years before moving to a totally different genre and segment of the music industry. The education that I got playing with and listening to these Latin players, especially the old-timers, was invaluable. I played in Mario Bauza's last band in the mid-eighties, which coincided with my transitioning away from Latin music performance, and more into the classical music arena. It was there that, ironically, I had the opportunity to work with Paquito D'Rivera and premiered a couple of his classical chamber works.
I will stop before I feel the need to delete this. |
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It's honest. Comments about the slaves and drums etc.... remember? |
****FROGMAN: Do you write liner notes? I read some stuff thst sounds just like you. :)****
I am a patient man, Rok; and I feel strongly enough about music and the promotion of factual appreciation of it to be willing to take another shot at trying to have a dialogue with you about this in the hope that you, a person who in spite of your sometimes incongruous views and plain bad form, do show a love for music; on your level, anyway. So, is your question an honest one? Or is it sarcasm with some underlying agenda? If it is honest, I would be glad to answer it. If it is the latter, then go ahead and hurl one more incongrous comment, or simply, don't respond at all. Either way is fine, but I am done with the bickering.
However, I will offer this little nugget; and one that I offered once before in this thread: Don't rely on liner notes; they usually only scratch the surface. Liner notes are like Cliff Notes (remember those?). Relying on liner notes is like giving more credence to the technical commentary in an audio magazine review than listening to what someone like Ralph Karsten, or a Jonathan Carr has to say about the same subject; or doing more extensive reading of authoritative musicological writings on your own.
So, which is it? Honest, or not? |
Orpheus10:
I did listen to Chucho valdes today. His 'Live at the Village Vanguard'. This guy is a monster on the Keyboard!! He is brilliant! The question is whether or not the music grabs you. I will leave that up to you. I like Jazz with a beginning, middle and end. His sister sings on one of the tunes. One reviewer said: "valdes' command of the keyboard is so technically staggering as to be stupefying". hahahaha That sounds a little scary! Check it out on youtube if it's there. It's a keeper for sure. "Must Have'? That's a different question. Overall it came across as too much of an 'exhibition'. A few horns would have helped. This may have been a case of just too much piano. The percussion only got a chance to solo on one track.
Danilo Perez -- PanaMonk
This Cd was much more to my liking. Perez' take on Monk. I didn't hear much Monk, but the tunes were familiar, so maybe that's why they sounded so good. He is a great Piano player also.
Irakere -- The Best Of Irakere
I am not sure what to make of this. Some great music for dancing. And some Jazz. But sometimes I got the feeling I was listening to someone trying to play like WAR or Santana or EW&F. I think everyone was trying to 'out-play' everyone else in the band. The Mozart thingy, by Paquito, was very cute. 'Xiomara' was my favorite.
Mario Bauza & his Afro-Cuban Jazz Orch -- My Time is Now
A very important founding figure in the whole Afro-Cuban Jazz scene. And there is one thing we can say about this CD. The name of the group states very clearly what type music is being played. Good stuff.
I didn't get a chance to play Mongo. Will save him for another day. He was my first introduction to afro-cuban Jazz back in the day.
One other thing. Read the liner notes on all of this music. It's fascinating! Read them and then say there is not a battle going on for the soul of Jazz.
FROGMAN: Do you write liner notes? I read some stuff thst sounds just like you. :)
Cheers |
We made a wrong turn, I hope we can acknowledge that fact, drop it 100% and move on. Otherwise we all lose.
Never before have I been in a conversation with so many astute jazz aficionados. They can contribute to the most important aspect of an audiophile's enjoyment, and that is "good" new music. "New" in this case being music you haven't heard before.
Frogman demonstrated his expertise in two musical genres. I mentioned a movie by the wrong title, and made a comment about the music. He came back with the movie by it's correct title, who wrote the soundtrack, and why the music was Cuban as opposed to Brazilian. Next, he posted on "Tina Brooks", who was an under appreciated tenor sax player, that only the most astute aficionados are aware of. Lately, I've been able to "hear" Tina Brooks. Only when, and if, you're on the resonant frequency of the music being played can you "hear" it, otherwise it's just noise.
When musical treasures are out in the open, and people are walking right past them, no one considers them a treasure, especially after this has occurred over a period of many years. If this treasure was so special, some one would have pointed it out after all this time, they say; not necessarily so.
Nina Simone was an accomplished classical pianist, who had been rooted in the church; she was playing piano at a lounge to fund the continuation of her education as a classical pianist when the owner told her to sing. Before this, the thought of singing for a living never entered her mind. Of course you know the rest, but now I'm going to tell you what this aficionado knows, that most don't know.
Nina's piano is a combination of gospel, jazz, and classical. It's one of the most unique jazz pianos I've ever heard. If she hadn't sang, she would be famous as a jazz or classical pianist. This musical treasure will soon disappear. Each new compilation only includes the vocals, I don't know what happens to the instrumentals, and before long, no one else will either. They only appear on the original LP's or CD copies of those LP's and not on the compilations, that's why they're disappearing. Fortunately you can enjoy them on "You tube". Here's the list: Nina's Blues, Flo Me La, Blues On Purpose, African Mailman, and Good Bait.
All past contributions to this thread have been much appreciated, and your future contributions will be appreciated even more.
Enjoy the music.
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I've been in the wings here but it seems to me that everyones experience, points of view and preferences are valid and of use to someone.
I know of Mosaic, Analogue Productions and Mobile Fidelity and just recently Pure Pleasure with respect to remastered reissues. What about the Japanese labels, and what are some other quality remaster and reissue labels in general?
I can digitally accommodate a frequency of 192 kHz which I'd like to put to the test. As a side note, I'm at a disadvantage when it comes to vinyl since I only own a mono cartridge (no I did that on purpose).
Any advice is gratefully appreciated. |
Rok, I've already got Nina, I'm going to have to catch up with you on Chucho Valdes. Where do I start?
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Orpheus10:
I listened to Nina Simone today. The Philips recordings 'Four Women'. All the usual adjectives just don't seem adequate. This is really some seriously great music / singing. She makes even pop songs special. The wife and I sat down and listened to all 4 CDs without break. It is that good. What a talent!
Better get it before it's listed by 'these sellers' for 900 dollars.
I have about 5 of the Chucho Valdez CDs. He is a good player. As you said, without qualifier. I don't have him with the Afro-Cuban messengers, but I did listen to him 'At the Village Vanguard'.
I was so moved, I thought I was back in Baghdad or Seville or some other hot-bed of Jazz.
Get the Nina thingy. You won't be sorry.
Cheers |
I knew my ears were burning this morning for some reason . WOW! They really worked me over. That CHAZRO is a caution, ain't he? You would have thought that a guru from stereophile had been spotted in bestbuy, the way he was howling and foaming at the mouth.
Archie Bunker?? I think I remeber him. All in the family. He was the one with the JOB. It could have been worst, he could have called me The Meathead!! And all this over a 'discussion' to which he was not even a party. I hate to think what would happened if anyone spoke to him directly.
Learsfool:
"There is no one on this board anywhere near as knowledgeable as Frogman in the subjects you have been trying to argue about with him."
According to....??????? And exactly what 'subjects'. I hope he is not 'self appointed' If he has a position, he should have kicked his credentials.
Cheers |
Frogman, I have "The Complete Blue Note Recordings of The Tina Brooks Quintets", that was put out on Mosaic Records. He expressed "Tina Brooks" eloquently, and that's what it's all about. Some of the musicians that appear with him on this 4 LP box set, are Lee Morgan, Sonny Clark, Doug watkins, Art Blakey, Jackie McClean, Blue Mitchell, Paul Chambers, and Philly Joe Jones. While there are other stars on this record set, the music is "Tina Brooks", and I'm glad I got to hear it.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, you gotta check Chucho Valdez and The Afro Cuban Messengers. This is "jazz" without any qualifiers. Although they're Cuban, Blakey would have been proud of these musicians. I listened long and hard, they cook. Some of the music incorporated elements of "Vodoun", but I liked that too. Tell me what you think.
Enjoy the music.
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Thanks for the words of support, Learsfool and Chazro. One of the more interesting aspects of being a music lover is that, ironically, since music touches the most personal parts of our beings, it also tends to make some very resistant to new ideas and viewpoints; even when those ideas are clearly rooted in fact. IOW, "How dare anyone question that which I love so much; how can they possibly not see (hear) what I see?" Even the players themselves fall victim to this. Some prominent jazz players during the swing era thought that the birth of bebop would be the end of jazz. And Coltrane? Well, how many players first felt about his style is well documented. I think the biggest challenge for a lot of the members of this forum is to not let their own personal music favorites take on undue importance in the scheme of the vast general scope of the art. We all have our favorites and may not be interested in being open to other musical viewpoints, wether they be by way of a different playing style or difficult compositions; as short sighted as that may be, it's ok. But, when one starts to make proclamations about this or that being fact, or that this or that style or performer is "the best", one should be able to back it up with a clear and factual argument and analysis, IMO. Art is human expression, and humans will always find a way to express the current human condition through art. To figure out for ourselves wether we are reacting to what the art is saying vs. wether we think it is good art or not is the biggest challenge; and the one with the biggest reward if we can arrive at an honest conclusion. Anyway, returning to the regular programming: If there ever was a cult figure in the world of jazz tenor players it was Tina Brooks. Not too many listeners have even heard of him, and to think that only one of his five Blue Note recordings was released during his lifetime is unbelievable. Just as an aside: it is a common and natural dynamic among musicians (in any genre, not just jazz) that when they show up to a gig they "size each other up" by how they warm-up. Some players take out their horn (or whatever) and start playing a million notes; everything but the kitchen sink. Other players will take the horn out, play a couple of notes and that's it; no big fanfare nor need to impress. Experienced players know that it is oftentimes the "quiet types" that will play the best; when it's time to get serious, what they do is just right. Tina Brooks strikes me as one of those players: not a particularly beautiful or well developed tone, some pitch issues here and there; but, in the context of the music he is playing everything is just right. This recording is highly recommended. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtx8rsp44tcAbout time some big band favorites get mentioned. Thad Jones/Mel Lewis big band live at the Vanguard. Talk about swinging. The band during this time included, among others, Joe Farrell, Eddie Daniels, and the great Pepper Adams. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=an6_DJRy-Ts |
Rok, Gloria Lynne, a forgotten vocalist, has come to my attention recently; she had a very seductive voice and "I Wish You Love" was probably her biggest hit. "June Night" is another one you want included in any compilation.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I understand your bowing out here completely, even though you are completely correct. Rok2id, please do not take offense, but you are demonstrating a fine example of that old phrase "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." There is no one on this board anywhere near as knowledgeable as Frogman in the subjects you have been trying to argue about with him.
That said, let's get back to enjoying the music. That's the most important thing. |
onhwy61, many times we've made a wrong turn after embarking on a journey. One glance at the map tells us to correct and move on. So it is with this journey, now that we have corrected, I hope you join us, and share the music in your jazz collection.
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Without a doubt, "The Colpix Years" are the best, that music is timeless; it sounds just as fresh today as when she recorded it. This is like returning to an old gold mine that everyone had given up on, and said "There's no more gold in that mine", and were discovering new nuggets everyday.
Enjoy the music.
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Orpheus10:
You are a Sage.
I was just listening to Nina the other day. I have the CD with the LPs, 'In Concert', and 'I put a spell on you'. She was not known for biting her lip. very outspoken. Always spouting those inconvienent truths.
I also have Nina's, The 'Four Women', four CD box set. Beautiful packaging. I will have to listen to it and report. It's said that the 'Coplix Years' is the best set. We will see.
Cheers |
Before anything gets misinterpreted, that wasn't addressed to anyone personally, but to us all generally. What we have to say about history, is moot compared to what "the moving finger" had to say. Whatever it was, nothing can change what the moving finger has written, and the moving finger never stops writing.
I would like for those moving fingers out there, write some more good recommendations that I can add to my collection.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, trying to have a discussion with R2id is truly an exercise in futility! This guy believes that what he THINKS is actually FACT. He's the type of guy who loves hearing himself talk. He doesn't allow for the possibility that he may be mistaken or that someone else knows more than he does. He hangs out at an audio site but is anti-audiophile. He claims he hangs here 'cause he's a music-lover. If that's the case, why not go to Jazzcorner, Allaboutjazz, or Organissimo, the guy's totally illogical. Just look at the stupid statements he's made on this thread alone, his arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance! He's truly got an Archie Bunker mentality.
'I for one, am going down swinging.'
?????????????????????????????????????
Against what? Against who? 50 yrs from now we'll all be gone but you know what'll still be around? THE MUSIC!!! Old AND new! If you fail to recognize this fundamental reality you truly know nothing. Stick to yr golden oldies lovefest but try to control yourself when the adults are having a conversation! I'd tell you to look up Congo Square but you undoubtedly think you know all there is to know about that place and time, don'tcha Archie!?;) |
Wow, some much incoherence and misinformation in so few paragraphs. Of course, there's always the possibility that it's all an eloborate joke that's gone over my head.
Cheers |
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OK, Rock. I'm done. You just don't get it. You are so intent on being right, that you have closed your mind to a perspective that can bring one a deeper understanding and appreciation of the music; and all music for that matter. If you care to learn, read my comments a little more carefully, and try not to let your ego cloud and distort what I am saying.
****'Others' have already destoryed: Rock & Roll, Gospel, Blues, R&B, Country and Western, and Country. Jazz and Blue Grass are now under attack and have been for a long time. Once they go under, that will be the end of AMERICAN music. We will be a big ball of diversified multicultured, internationalist noise. Classical is under attack also, but it's not American in orgin. Who is attacking this music? The below average, The average, the wannabes, the non talented, the 'if they can do it, I can do it', the 'I should be able to be WHATEVER I DESIRE to be' crowd.****
Jeez! What can I say? At best, a sadly pessimistic outlook on what music, and it's role in culture is all about. That you should think that art of any kind can be attacked and destroyed that easily is really unfortunate. Once again, the irony of what you say is staring you in the face and you don't open yourself up to seeing it. The Spanish tried to "destroy" the music of the African slaves by banning drums, and banning their religious symbols. And do you know what happened? They (slaves) substituted other instruments including a simple wooden crate to use as percussion instruments. That crate became known as "el cajon" (literally, "box"), and a fixture in a lot of Caribbean music. The attempts to ban their religious symbols prompted them to substitute Christian saints' names in an amalgam that became "Santeria", which became a significant influence in Afro-Cuban music (jazz). Creativity can't be destroyed; it evolves.
Anyway, I really am done. I gave it my best shot.
Peace. Or should I say, paz. |
Jazz was created by African-Americans. Not folks in africa. We are talking about people of African decent. Pay attention. Guitars? other instruments? That's not 'influence'!
Influence is when one thing changes another. Show me how Arabs have changed Jazz. Spainards. Really? One example of influence and change: Be-Bop! Dizzy and the boys started playing it, and almost everyone after that began to play it also. There was no law that said they had to, they were 'influenced' by the new music.
Individual players can be influenced quite easily. Miles with the fusion thingy. All he did was open the door for a lot of no talented wannabes. BUT JAZZ is an entire genre. It's not as easily influenced. The main thing about influence is this, once influenced, you never go back. Being the maker of certain instruments does not qualify as influence on the music played using those instruments.
Dizzy went to cuba a lot and played with cubans. He may have cut an Lp or two. That is not influence. Unless he played with latin motifs for the rest of his career. Otherwise it was just a project to cut a LP. Something new.
Duke Ellington went on a tour of the middle east to find new music and cut some LPs based on the music. He wanted to improvise over all the different types of music. But, he said it all had a 'sameness' to it. So he made the LP, but not the one he had invisioned. He then went back to being The Duke! He was not influenced! Just a project that didn't work out as he thought it would.
Influence does not mean playiong latin music or playing with different instruments or singing in a different language. Influence is much much more. It changes how composers think in writing the music. It changes the creators. It changes the trajectory of the entire genre.
As far as I can see be-bop has beee the only real change to Jazz. Hard bop is just a natural progression of bop. All this avant garde, and free stuff are just failed efforts to change the tracjectory of the music.
The Arabs had nothing to do with it. hahahahahahahah I always thought they beheaded folks for even playing music. I know the taliban does.
Using your line of logic, we could say, the Big Bang has had the biggest influence on Music. Lauds INDEED!
Cheers |
****It is not spanish and the indians were wiped out eons ago. So what could it be?****
C'mon man, let's stay focused. Nobody said anything about Indians; only as concerns the influence on the Peruvian music that you brought up earlier; and there it is undeniable.
Now, Spanish you ask? You better believe it! Go a little deeper into the history of this music. Don't rely only on liner notes; they ususally only tell a small piece of the story. The traditions in this music run very deep.
For starters: where do you think the prominence of the guitar and, more specifically, the "laud" and "tres" came from? Spain; but more specifically, the Arabs by way of Spain. The Moors invaded Spain and brought with them these instruments, their tuning and way of playing them. Then there is those pesky issues of harmony and form. Show us one example of native African music that uses harmony and form in a way remotely resembling that in the type of Latin music that we are discussing; or in Jazz for that matter. Please understand, and I will say it again: the African contribution to this music is obvious and huge; but it is far from the only one. |
Rok, The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: all thy Piety or Wit Shall not lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor will all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
The moving finger done wrote, and nothing will change that. Let's get back to the music, and let the music do the rest of the writing.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10,
It's sort of like politics. Either you define and defend yourself, or others will do it for you. 'Others' are trying to define Jazz. Although the odds are overwhelming, I for one, am going down swinging. 'Others' have already destoryed: Rock & Roll, Gospel, Blues, R&B, Country and Western, and Country. Jazz and Blue Grass are now under attack and have been for a long time. Once they go under, that will be the end of AMERICAN music. We will be a big ball of diversified multicultured, internationalist noise.
Classical is under attack also, but it's not American in orgin. Who is attacking this music? The below average, The average, the wannabes, the non talented, the 'if they can do it, I can do it', the 'I should be able to be WHATEVER I DESIRE to be' crowd.
Buy and enjoy the good stuff while yuu can.
Cheers |
Frogman, you are most certainly correct in regard to the movie.
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To clear the air:
First:
I was mistaken when I refered to the Buena Vista Social Club Cd as Afro-Jazz. My mistake. No where in the documentation that came with the CD does the word Jazz appear. I loved the music whatever it is, and I am sure it's african based. My ears tell me that. And that is my only point. It is not spanish and the indians were wiped out eons ago. So what could it be? I will not considered those pesky aliens from the crab nebula.
Cheers
I will answer your other 'points' in a while. |
****and it's so absurd. Everything with an African origin is changed to something else****
I find that comment fascinating on several counts. Yes, it's true that throughout musical history (and history in general) there are many unfortunate examples of African contribution to the art not given sufficient credit. But, don't you think that it is a kind of political correctness, to suggest that also giving credit (correctly so) to the contribution of other nationalities to an art form that is clearly a melting pot of many influences, somehow detracts from the importance of the African contribution? In fact, what has been happening in recent times is exactly the opposite, and demonstrates the danger of political correctness in the arts. The incredibly rich African contribution is now highlighted at all cost, at the expense of other contributors, and even exploited to make political statements, or for profit. The danger is not only that others are denied deserved credit, but that by it becoming politically incorrect to criticize art with African origins, we actually hurt the artistic heritage of a culture (think rap).
I am at a loss to understand how acknowledging the fact that Latin music is more than just a single, African influence somehow detracts from the importance of the African influence. Rok challenged one of my comments this way:
****"Ok, take away the Spanish, and Arab components and what is left? Drumming?"
You might want to reconsider this****
Really? Let's delve a little deeper and actually see what is left if one takes out the Spanish and Arab components. But, lets have more than just opinion; let's use concrete examples and analysis.
Your example of the movie "In Brazil" is an interesting one. Brazilian music is acknowledged to have a strong African influence. How do you propose that "credit" be given? Should every Holywood movie with a John Williams score give credit to the folk music of the native people of Hungary, since Bela Bartok had some influence on John Williams' composition style, and the music of Hungary was an influence on Bartok? Pretty convoluted, no?BTW, correct me if I am mistaken, but I think the movie that you refer to is "The Americano", set in Brazil. The reason that the music sounds so much like the music in "Cuban All Stars" is that the composer for the score in "The Americano" was Xavier Cugat, who I am sure you know was a Cuban composer. Actually, he was not Cuban, he was Spanish and spent many years in Cuba. See, as I have been saying, in this music there is more than one single important influence and they are all connected. |
I like the way this conversation has touched on a controversial subject. Music is life and life is real. Now we can get back to real music, and let the music speak for itself, in regard to "all subjects" without highlighting any other subjects separately.
Nina Simone might be my favorite vocalist. Her musical life began in church, and she also studied and worked hard to become a concert pianist. She was playing piano at a lounge to pay for her schooling as a concert pianist, when the owner asked her to sing. The rest is history.
Since everyone knows all about her vocal talents, I'll focus on another aspect of the talented Ms. Nina Simone. That gal plays a mean jazz piano, and it's so unique, that the only other pianist I can compare it to is "Bud Powell". I've compiled a list of some of her instrumental contributions to jazz. "African Mailman", "Flo Me La", "Nina's Blues", and "Blues On Purpose" are a sampling of her prowess on jazz piano.
Enjoy the music.
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You lost me now. Or, maybe, you lost yourself with your unwillingness to be a little more openminded. Rok, at this point in the discussion we were talking about latin music or latin jazz; what you referred to as "so-called Latin stuff", and NOT traditional jazz. My references and examples of what influenced the shaping of this music are established facts. We may not like a particular music, but that doesn't mean we can try and change the facts. The irony here is that it was you that first brought up latin music with your reference to the Buena Vista SS, and referred to it as Afro Cuban Jazz; doubly ironic, because if you were to ask fans of the music for examples of Afro Cuban Jazz, BVSS would probably be at the bottom of the list. So, to paraphrase you: Which is it, is "so-called latin stuff" jazz or not?
Anyway, it seems to me that I have been here before in discussions with you, and I will take a cue from experience and bow out; this is too nice a thread for silly bickering. My comments speak for themselves.
Peace. |
"Ok, take away the Spanish, and Arab components and what is left? Drumming?"
You might want to reconsider this.
Cheers |
Senor Rodiguez is quite the virtuoso. Jazz? If you insist. It could have come from a practice book. The Goldberg variations of the Jazz world?
The point is this. If someone wants to play a Jazz number with a 'spanish' or 'arabic' or middle eastern motif, that does not mean those types of music are the building blocks of Jazz. A lot of Jazz has been played with spanish and middle eastern motifs. Written and played by people in the USA. Even in New Orleans! if means nothing. Like Dvorak and his 9th. American themes, indian and black. Does that mean Indians and Blacks or Americans are components of the essance of european classical music?
I can sing the Star Spangled Banner in German. Means nothing. It does not make it German music.
Nice try.
Cheers |
