Jazz for aficionados
@stuartk Thank you. I didn't begin to write a book on this topic. I researched my way into it and felt that it was an urgent issue that needed examining. It does relate to jazz and other music. Art defines us as being human, and I couldn't imagine living in a world without music. And I feel that jazz hits the deepest spiritual parts of humanity which go back to our very beginnings. |
stuartk, All of this is metaphor to me. Feminine Creator, Masculine Creator. It tells us about the society we live in. The suppression of women and the feminine is the world we live in. Take it away from the spiritual, it's just history. The point I want to make, and most people will disagree, is that humans didn't always live under patriarchy. That was a societal choice. And we all have a horse in the race, because we all live under patriarchy. It's about the suppression of women, about the suppression of races and religions. It's how history has led to the mess the world is in. My belief is that without a feminine perspective, our future does not look bright. I have to write a book about it because it's so hard for people to accept. If you want to know more about the history contact me in the texting part. I can't do it. For some reason my screen is screwed up. I can give you a historical perspective if you want. It's all very complicated, and men pretty much immediately dismiss the idea. Women usually say, "Of course." To stay on the subject of jazz, here's another cut from James Carter. He's a master technician. He plays in so many styles, it's hard to find something that you could call his style. |
FYI, I don’t know whether there is a creator or not. Nor do I have a horse in this race. The Yin/Yang symbol expresses the spiritual perspective/reality that everything is part of a Whole (insert whichever name you prefer) in which masculine and feminine play equal roles and furthermore, in which each aspect contains the other. This is not a polarized paradigm nor is it defined by the historical record of human religion. One might say it’s Life in action.
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alexatpos, I also had a socialist upbringing. As I studied archaeology for my book, I found out there were Marxist archaeologists as well as feminist archaeologists. One of the biggest questions I have, and I have no answer, is what society would look like, through what lens would we view the world, if women hadn't been suppressed for at least 5,000 years? Let's look at art and music. When did women begin to participate in the arts? I know there are a few exceptions, but I mean on a somewhat broad scale. Can you think of any women composers prior to Clara Schumann in the mid 1800s? And Clara Schumann was a bright, bright star, married to a great composer and loved by other great composers like Brahms. In jazz, when did women begin to participate,? And by participating I mean more than singing. Truthfully, we are just beginning to sense the power of female musicians today. When we talk about the greats in jazz, Coltrane, Davis, and all the others, no women come up. So the suppression of women has a lot to do with the arts. We can say the same about painting and writing. Since women read fiction much more than men, they became involved a bit earlier. Jane Austin lived in the early 1800s. I have a lot of theories which include the masculine affects on physics, but they're not for here. But theories aside, just think about the history of the arts. It is so obvious that women and whatever they have to offer have been suppressed as far back as the Greeks and the Jews, both of whom formed our way of thinking and the lens through which we see the world. Which, by the way, has included war since the first patriarchies with the Sumerians and Aryans. Homer writes about war. The Torah talks about war. It's been all the rage since women were suppressed. And just to throw in a bit of feminine energy, here's a taste of Geri Allen:
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@curiousjim Chick Corea passed away almost 5 years ago... @audio-b-dog I find that masculine/feminine concept a bit odd, at least when we are speaking about art. Does inspiration or 'divine touch' has a 'gender'? I guess we might search for examples of expressions of our 'inner child' as well? Concept of beauty or ugliness has always been subject of change. Who can exactly pin point all influences, innate or cultural and social that made him/her feel or express in a certain way? Not all men/women are the same and ('spiritual') gender might be one of the factors, but is it a crucial? Imho it is a bit oversimplifying, or perhaps it was my 'socialistic' upbringing that was oversimplified. Aldo I am aware that you are speaking about spiritual concept, one could easily fall in trap and start looking for other things ('differences') among men, based on their race, color, origin, etc. Call me naive, but I believe that music creation is a 'sum' of many things and influences, past and present and not something that is born out of personal vacuum.. |
stuartk, yes the yin-yang symbol, masculine and feminine in balance. But the Creator a man? Give me a break. The Creator was a woman from the beginning.. Up until maybe 10,000 years ago there were only female goddess symbols. Not male. For some reason (and I can think of many) men made goddesses and female power forbidden. That's Abraham's first commandment, there shall be no God before Yahweh, and he was talking about those Asherah statues in the backs of Hebrews' houses.. Anyway, we should probably take this off the forum if you want to discuss it more. Esperanza Spalding is a perfect example of what empowered women can do. So is Alice Coltrane. And I think the great artists, including John Coltrane, are in touch with their inner feminine. Even though they might worship a male god. We were talking about different male jazz players being more feminine and others being more masculine. One of the great classical pianists Alfred Brendel just died, and he favored nuance over power. Put him in a class with Mitsuko Uchida, my favorite classical pianist. But I drift. It would be interesting for people to name male musicians that they think are more in touch with their feminine side and those who are only into raw power. I think Louis Armstrong was both, and that's what made him a genius. John Coltrane wouldn't have married a powerful woman like Alice Coltrane if he didn't understand feminine power. Now I'm thinking about Miles Davis--maybe later Miles Davis, and I don't know. Earlier Kind of Blue Miles Davis definitely had the soft touch. Later Bitches Brew, throwing tantrums Miles Davis. I don't know, even though I own Bitches Brew and play it. |
Yes! Christian Scott/Chief (Xian aTunde) Adjuah to me anyway, is a so called ’young lion’ as is Christian McBride. Or am I missing something here? Me thinks Esperanza Spalding is a much more, far more diversified bassist than Christian McBride (will ever be...). She sings, writes, produces, is a band leader, can put her double bass down and pick up an electric bass and jam her ass off, completely and utterly more dynamic, can do a one man (woman) show, fly to Rio de Janeiro and produce/sit in, lead the band - with Milton Nascimento, sing in perfect Portuguese while she’s playing the double bass and she’s younger than both Chief Adjuah and Christian McBride. At her age, she’s just starting to feel some blues. She just has more in her ’tool kit’, so to speak.
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+1 @audio-b-dog, Esperanza Spalding is SPECIAL indeed. Although she doesn't think so, I think she is in a class - all her own. |
I don’t view spirituality as belonging exclusively to any particular path but I don’t view it as exclusively feminine, either. Just because patriarchy has had a poisonous impact upon religion doesn’t mean there isn’t a healthy masculine aspect to spirituality. Be careful you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water! My wife still does Hatha Yoga every day but it’s a very long time since I did.
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Yep, Christian McBride for a young lion, is holding down the traditions of Jazz. I got another ' young cub' for you. |
@tyray, Yes, Lonnie Liston Smith is on the Karma album. I read a bit about Pharoah Sanders, and it said that after Coltrane died he had trouble finding a group of musicians who could play the type of sound he wanted. I guess he would refer to it as spiritual. @stuartk, I think I share in all those musicians spiritual connection to the music, and I feel it when they play. But I don't share in any scripture or liturgy. If I were to rewrite "The Creator Has a Master Plan," I would substitute "She" for "He" in regards to the Creator. I think music at its essence is spirituality, and I think that's why I talk about being joyous when I listen to certain music. There is music that appeals to my intellect, and that's a whole different matter. I enjoy it and often get lost in it, but it does not make me feel joyous. @curiousjim I think that Esperanza Spalding is someone to watch on the bass. I saw her in a Herbie Hancock band, and although I was at the Hollywood Bowl and a fair distance from the stage and she was standing at the back of a lot of musicians, she was electric and I couldn't take my eyes off her hands. I felt like they were magical. The little I read about her, it sounds as if she were a savant, like many of the great musicians. Playing piano at three, performing at a very young age. If I could live my life over, I would want to have musical talent. Writing prose is not at all joyous. It's a lot of work. I was also a painter until my back gave out, and painting was totally joyous because I never knew what I was going to do next. I loved getting lost in a painting. |
I couldn’t have written it any better myself. It was Mike Shrieve the original Santana drummer who introduced Carlos to Coletrane, and the rest is history. I have the Caravanserai lp as well and also the Carlos Santana · Mahavishnu John McLaughlin - Love Devotion Surrender lp . Check out the roughly made Beatles documentary of their experiences with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi who developed TM. Many years ago I had an opportunity to become part of a medical study at Morehouse College of Medicine to take TM, totally free and all they wanted to do was monitor my blood pressure and see if TM would lower your blood pressure. It was one of the best classes I’d ever had the opportunity to take. By the time I was 18 I had mastered about 10 Hatha Yoga Asanas (poses/stretches). But that was a LONG time ago... Lonnie Liston Smith · The Cosmic Echoes - Meditations 1976
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Yes; I’m familiar with that recording. in the late 60’s, 70’s there was an intensified interest in spirituality among musicians, Jazz and otherwise. R. Thompson, P. Townshend: Sufism. Beatles: Yoga (TM) Santana, J. McLaughlin: Yoga W. Shorter, H. Hancock, S. Cowell and many more: Buddhism McCoy Tyner and others: Islam Some, like Coltrane, seemed not to adhere to any single path. You might say spirituality was "in the air" in that era. It certainly affected me and a number of my friends in high school. I recall opening the gatefold to Caravanserai and encountering a quote by Paramahansa Yogananda before I’d even become aware of his famous aurobiography. And of course Mahvishnu Orchestra album and tune titles were an expression of the same. Spiritual themes were common in the music of The Incredible String Band, G. Harrison, Cat Stevens, , the Who, Donovan, etc. It wasn’t until a few years later that I got into Jazz and started noticing this same trend. I guess "My Goals Beyond" was probably the first for me, after Mahavishnu. |
@stuartk is correct. The confusion is the song Feminina is on this Joyce (Moreno) with Mauricio Maestro - Natureza - (produced, arranged & conducted by Claus Ogerman) (Full Album) 1977 lp. And this lp Joyce Moreno - Feminina - 1980 is titled Feminina. I really like both lp’s but I think this Joyce Moreno - Feminina - 1980 lp has better production value with better overall engineering making the entire song writing skills, musicianship and arrangements really stand out. And the songs Feminina and Mistérios are on this lp as well.
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@stuartk, I must have gotten confused. There is a lot going on with my qobuz screen. I'll check it out again. I liked what I heard. Here is a juneteenth offering of Pharoah Sanders on sax with Leon Thomas singing. To me, this is spiritual music. Let me explain what "spiritual" means to me. I grew up in a secular house. I have only gotten into the concept of spiritual as I have researched my book on the suppression of women through religion. I have gone back to the beginning of humanity, when I think women were the cave painters and shamans. At that time, I believe art and religion were one thing, a celebration of existence in the universe. Then music was spiritual in that it was a joyous expression of being part of the universe. I think Pharoah Sanders expresses that joy in this set, "The Creator Has a Master Plan." It's a half-hour, so when you listen, I think you need to sit back and offer up your soul to the music. |
@tyray, sorry if I had any part in triggering you. It is true that I had no idea what the word meant. I find all words interesting, especially ones that uncover hidden sentiments within a culture. But there are words that trigger me too, and I wouldn't be so objective about those words. I'm a writer and I have a thing for words, but I'm also a person who reacts strongly to certain words. Obviously, I wouldn't have posted the song or even mentioned it if I knew its meaning. Again, sorry if I triggered you. And you did hit the date right on target. I heard that song in 1975. I also heard Flora Purim being covered, and that's what got me into her. I've never really been a Wando fan. Don't know much about him, except what you've just told me. |
I know you had no idea and no worries at all with you and I, we’re cool. But you say this is ’interesting’? Not in the least. About the song, lol! Hell no! I don’t and didn’t like it and it will not be played in my home. Although I wouldn’t call the word ’colloquial’ as colloquial to me anyway are words used in ’ordinary or familiar conversation’ with each other. Are the words Nega, Nego, Negão and Neguinho still being used in Brazil in conversation? Yes.
I probably wrote and put to much in my ’deatribe’ and didn’t mean to bring such a terse viceral conversation to this thread, but I was ’triggered’ as they say.
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The word "nega" in Portuguese is a pejorative to black women not only in Brazil but in other countries as well so be very careful when singing it and speaking it. Just saying.
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Hope you like it! If not, there are certainly others to sample from her career. Did you already check out the one @tyray mentioned :"Natureza"? |
I didn’t say you used a translator, I very simply said ’your Spanish is impeccable’. Can’t be more descriptive than that. I used the translator.
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@stuark, I don't listen much beyond 80db. Every now and then a song will push me into the mid 80s, but I watch it, too. I kind of blew my right ear sitting next to a speaker at a Delany and Bonnie concert many years ago. I now wear a hearing aid in that ear, which also tames tinitus. So, I listen with one ear analogue and one ear digital. Loud means different things to different people. Some people hear loud at 70db. A lot of music I listen to in the 60s or lower so it doesn't bother my wife. If I absolutely have to listen to something loud with her in the house, I resort to headphones. Although, I like the blast from speakers actually hitting my body. It can make a difference, even in some classical, like the 1812 Overture with its canons. I cued Joyce Moreno up on my streamer and will listen to Femina at my next listening session. |
Thanks. I didn’t use a translator for that post -- I can still speak simply although I’ve forgotten most of my Spanish. When I need a translator I use BabelFish. I lived in Mexico 1970 - 1972 as an adolescent. I’d studied it in school before moving there but there’s nothing like immersing yourself in a culture when it comes to learning a language. And subsequently I lived in S. CA and worked in a restaurant with many Mexicanos. Durante esos anos, hablaba tan mucho Espanol como Ingles. Ahora, no hay mucha oportunidad para practicar -- solamente pedir comida en restaurantes o platicar con hombres que trabajan por PG&E cortando arboles cerca de lineas electricos. OK... my brain is getting tired !
Link for Feminina by Joyce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkmSIdeSGK8&list=PLy1Y3HHeUKJSpsbVNqaLGqnxFVIIs9GDW The more I listen to this, the more I like it. I'm going to continue exploring her music. |
@stuartk, @mahgister and @audio-b-dog, Yeah the band Caldera didn’t get hardly any promotion by the record company Capital even though they had some monster producers such as Wayne Henderson and Larry Dunn of Earth Wind & Fire. And what little I did listen to of Neotropical Nocturnes now I see where the Flamenco style guitar playing comes from. I’m going to take some time this week and really listen to it some more. @stuartk, your Spanish is impeccable, I didn't even know you could use a translator in audiogon. Thanks for the rip Stu.
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RE: Caldera, I like "Dreamer" best but it’s very rare and hence, very expensive on CD. I’ve started listening to Joyce. Her voice has a fresh, invigorating quality I enjoy very much. "Feminina" has a nice variety of moods and tempos. Thanks for further elucidating your point. I typically listen at an average of 65-75 dB. I may approach 80 dB at times for short interludes but with my system, in my room, that’s plenty loud enough for me. Having abused my hearing with guitar amps for decades, I don’t want to risk doing any more damage at this point. ;o)
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Glad you liked her! I have always had a affinity towards MPB, even more so than Bossa Nova. I like to call it, Brazilian FM! You, correction, I can listen to it all day, especially in Brazil.