Good comment, @stuartk .
But, I think there may be some misunderstanding about modal Jazz. While it is true that the artistic impetus for modal Jazz was to allow Jazz players to “be less tied to chord changes”, as you point out, the players were “less tied to chord changes” as concerns the sheer number of different chord changes in a given composition. While a typical “standard” tune may have a different chord change in every measure of the tune, and sometimes even two or more in a single measure, in modal Jazz the chord changes happen much less frequently; typically every four or even eight (or more) measures. In some “modal” compositions there are no chord chord changes at all. The tune stays on one harmony for its entirety. Staying on one chord for an extended period of time the player is given the freedom to explore that harmony far longer than in a typical tune in which the frequent chord changes serves to “guide”, even force, the player to move in a certain harmonic direction while improvising. I think that this serves to give a feeling of “structure” due to its relative harmonic“simplicity”.
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Interesting discussion. Although KOB is often referred to as the beginning of modal Jazz and held up as an example of improvisation that is less tied to chord changes; more "free floating", if you will, it still strikes me as more structured, less amorphous, than than the recordings by the Second Great Quintet -- especially those that feature their original compositions. As in visual art or poetry, there’s a spectrum that covers a graduated span between the explicit/representational to the implicit/abstract. Each of us will, given sufficient exposure, discover what feels most stimulating/natural along the spectrum. As I’ve aged, my tolerance for atonality, absence of evident structure and more abrasive timbres has noticeably diminished (no pun intended). ;o)
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Frogman, no need to explain yourself, I fully understand your point. (and I would dare to say, even perspective in which Miles headed in that period of time) I have not respond on your previous, longer, post about second quintet, because we have spoken about that subject in the past. I might add, jokingly, that I have expected more of myself, because, since than obviously I have not made much progress listening wise and I still prefer more 'accessible' music aldo I appreciate what the artist (Miles in this case) wanted 'to say'...but, it (still) seems that 'beauty' of the tone more affects my affinity towards some music...
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Much to say about the topic, when time allows. But, for starters: “freer”, in the context of the music of the SGQ, does not mean “free jazz”.
Alex, you may have read my unedited post, but I edited since I did not want to be presumptuous. I am not the least bit surprised that you like Coleman’s tone better than Shorter’s.
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WIKI:
Do people actually like free jazz?
While it's true that free jazz can be both sonically and intellectually challenging, it can also be stimulating. And believe it or not, it's actually possible to enjoy it (rather than endure it).
What does SONICALLY AND INTELLECTUALLY CHALLENGING mean? And why would anyone want to listen to that type of "music"?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Cheers
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I like his sound more than Shorters.
In his autobiography, Miles said “He was a hell of a musician, but Tony [Williams] didn’t like him. Tony wanted somebody who was reaching for different kinds of things, like Ornette Coleman.” Williams, Hancock and Carter wanted to play freer, “and they felt that George got in the way. George could play free if he wanted to; he just didn’t want to. He preferred the more traditional way.” But Miles has only praise for the tenorist.'
https://youtu.be/bzCmVJ_iuYY?feature=shared
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Speaking of “abstract approach to a melody”. One of my favorite Miles recordings. Same rhythm section as the SGQ, but different tenor player. I have always liked George Coleman. Great, but different voice than that of Wayne Shorter. A different kind of beauty in his playing.
https://youtu.be/XdrAzpYdOYs?si=YijSVyBwoh5jg4rf
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I get it. I understand (I think) why you feel the way you do and it is a perfectly valid viewpoint. As you pointed out, “beauty lies in the eye of the beholder”. The following comments are not meant as a rebuttal to yours, simply an explanation of why I (!) feel that the SGQ could be considered to be the greatest ever and, for me, they were.
You cite “beauty of expression” as the determinant factor for you. For me there is no less beauty of expression in the playing of the SGQ. However, it is of a different kind; a different aesthetic. It is rhythmically more obtuse. Improvisations are more removed from and less grounded in the melodic and harmonic “centers of gravity” of the composition than those heard in the tunes on KOB, to use your example. Some would say, more adventurous. Don’t get me wrong, I love KOB and it is one of the most important records and one of the greatest bands in Jazz history. During the time of the SGQ Jazz, in general, was in a different place than it was during the KOB era. As always great art reflects the time of its creation and if prefers one particular aesthetic over a more “progressive” aesthetic than that would guide our judgment of one over the other. Those are all things I would say fall under the “in the eye of the beholder” rule. A personal call. I like both aesthetics; probably equally so.
However, for me, it goes beyond that. The level of musical interplay between the members of the SGQ is simply amazing. In my opinion, it is on a different level entirely. There is a level of musical telepathy, musical conversation that happens between the players that is breathtaking. Particularly impressive when one considers how abstract Miles’ approach to a melody could be, as an example. A perfect example of this connection is heard in the very beginning of the live clip that I posted previously. They walk out on stage, no banter, no count off of the tune, no hesitation. Miles simply plays an opening phrase and they take off in perfect synchronicity and it goes from there. Pretty impressive stuff.
One thing that I think is indisputable is the genius of Miles Davis.
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I could not even choose the one (line up) I like the most, yet alone the 'greatest', but definitely prefer the one from the KOB to the 'Second GQ'.Pity that they did not record more. For me, the difference is in the sheer beauty of expression of the first group. Of course, I am aware that beauty 'lies in the eye of the beholder' as well as the passage of time between them, but still, to my young ears, no contest
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@frogman
However, for me, Miles’ “Second Great Quintet” is the greatest Jazz ensemble that ever was. Incredible in every way.
For me, as well ! ! !
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@stuartk
Yes, I know about this. I was being considerate by keeping my list, which could be a lot longer, short!
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I normally dislike “greatest” this or that designations in Jazz, an art form in which individuality is a key component. However, for me, Miles’ “Second Great Quintet” is the greatest Jazz ensemble that ever was. Incredible in every way.
https://youtu.be/oxnQvVhjdmg?si=O4sL1Nz6YDp2PWU9
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@bottomzone
If you like VSOP, give a listen to the band whose magic VSOP attempted to recreate -- the Miles Davis Quintet 1964 - 1968.
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Miles Davis-Kind of Blue
Miles Davis-Bitches Brew
Return to Forever-Romantic Warrior
Pat Metheny Group-Pat Metheny Group
Yellowjackets-Yellowjackets
Stanley Clarke-Journey to Love
Chuck Loeb-The Moon, the Stars, and the Setting Sun
George Duke-I Love the Blues She Heard My Cry
Weather Report-Black Market
Jaco Pastorius-Jaco
Freddie Hubbard-Red Clay
Herbie Hancock-Headhunters
Herbie Hancock-VSOP
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@frogman
I was familiar with that N. L. Doky album, but not the Joe Locke, which I enjoyed.
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@acman3
Thanks for posting the Bob Berg performances -- very enjoyable!
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I am presently streaming Pat Metheny's new album - Moon Dial on Qobuz.
I have not listened to his music in quite some time. A very smooth, detailed and relaxing set of tracks
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@frogman
Miles himself seems to have been fond of that term, which he used as an expression of deep appreciation.
Re: Bob Berg, those interested in checking out his mainstream side might enjoy "Another Standard". No doubt you can recommend a recording that displays his electric side.
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@frogman
I like Berg, but until you pointed them out, hadn't recognized the commonalities shared with Thomas, who I've always tended to regard as a more outside player. BTW, Thomas did a stint in the J. McLaughlin band that recorded Live in Paris.
Berg co-fronted a band with M. Stern at one point and appeared on other recordings in that genre (I don't know what to call it) over the years as well as a smattering of more mainstream sessions.
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Came across this clip of Roney talking about meeting Miles. Funny moment:
@3:10, Roney says “He was the coolest…..”. Then, you can see/hear him about to say a word beginning with the letter “m”. He stops himself and says “…..person”. “He was the coolest person”. I’ll bet that “m” word would rhyme with “honeysucker” 😊
https://youtu.be/jzXSXEj-5bs?si=NLXzrfgnXJTbvVHI
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Re @stuartk ’s last post:
Just wanted to share some thoughts that I had concerning his mention of Wallace Roney and Gary Thomas. I know Roney’s playing, but less so that of Thomas. I found the thoughts that came to mind interesting (to me, anyway) and pointing to the issue of player-to-player stylistic influence and “simpatico”.
I searched YouTube and listened to a couple of Gary Thomas clips and one of the first things that came to mind was another great tenor player, Bob Berg. There was a similar rhythmic urgency and phrasing, if not exactly in their respective tones, in the playing of both players. Clear Coltrane influence without being Coltrane “clones”. Digging into Thomas’ background I learned that Miles had chosen him for one of his last bands. So had been Bob Berg. Adding to the interesting “connections” and as stuartk points out, Roney has been criticized for “sounding too much like Miles”. Hmmmm……!
Anyway, great players all around.
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Just listened to Judy Arafat, Con Alma
A Tribute To Dizzy Gillespie.
I really enjoyed it.
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Speaking of trumpet players, Wallace Roney doesn’t seem to get many mentions, here. He’s been criticized for "sounding too much like Miles" by some but this has never kept me from enjoying his playing. Two records I especially like are "Obsession" and "Intuition", both on Muse and both pairing him with Gary Thomas, another player whose name I’ve yet to see here. Roney was part of the Tony Willams quintet that also included Mulgrew Miller. That group recorded 3 or 4 studio albums in addition to the 2 disc in-concert "Tokyo Live".
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I just realized I haven't listened to any F. Hubbard for a long time. Will rectify that today!
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Sitting back in the big mission rocker with an iced coffee in my hand and the ceiling fan spinning overhead, listening to what is my idea of perfect summer music: "Sweet Rain" by Stan Getz, with Chick Corea on piano. . .
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It’s fabulous to see this thread getting so much love here on AG. I would have never guessed there were so many jazz listeners here. Keep the flame burning, and on vinyl if you’ve got it!
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Charlie Shavers, Out Of Nowhere.
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Something Else!, Soul Jazz. Featuring Vincent Herring.
Excellent album!
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Listening to the John Nazarenko Trio, Some Other Time. Never heard of the until they popped up on Qobuz.
Nice album.
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https://youtu.be/0mvqYXUu9z8?si=ewMyBFTDUy2pO1CL
A nice pocket bio.
Clearly a player possessing incredible self-discipline.
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Pat Methany
https://youtu.be/0mvqYXUu9z8?si=ewMyBFTDUy2pO1CL
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Well, you can always send me your fax number and I will send you the list of albums...there is an arrow under the link played that says ’share’ and I copied the link and paste it here, like always. I understand that its not possible to click and open it, but perhaps its possible to copy it and than search the link? If not, will write the title of album, as I already do, so you can search it for yourself...if you wish, of course...
Computers are not mine thing also...
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You got the wrong person trying to explain computers ! When I am on the Audiogon box I am posting to, There is a series of letters and objects in the header. About 2/3 across the page there is a smiley face and then a chain looking object. If you have that in the header, click the chain looking devise. You are a smarter man than me , so I think you can figure it out from there.
If anyone else sees a better way for Alex to post music please don't be afraid to assist .
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@Acman3, Sorry, but I do not understand ’clicking the chain looking object and paste heading.’ Can you please explain me better? I am writing on my laptop and if I pass over the links with my mouse and press the right key I can use the option ’go to link’ and than it opens (instead of just clicking the link like before)
If that is not possible for you, let me know how I can post them again. If only the Russians would stop interfering with peace loving jazz crowd....
But I see that your links are blue...and working....its just that my hacker skills are not match for yours...
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Alex, none of your links came through. The old way we did links doesn't seem to work anymore. I started clicking the chain looking object and paste heading. I know its a pain but I do look forward to your music.
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This is unusual combination, I would say, Chet Baker and brazilian quartet...bought that one too, it goes with summer vibes...
https://youtu.be/JVmWo9yqO-Y?feature=shared
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I was looking for this one, for some time already. Oldie but goldie. Marty Paich Quartet Featuring Art Pepper
https://youtu.be/MkmQBemnchE?feature=shared
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