Today's Playlist:
Etta Jones -- DON'T GO TO STRANGERS
Throughly enjoyable CD. Jones is as good as anyone not named Ella. Excellent song selection and accompaniment.
Excellent recording quality.
And all this time, I thought 'Fine and Mellow' and 'All the Way', were owned by Billie Holiday and Little Jimmy Scott respectively. Maybe not.
Check it out!
Stravinsky -- THE SOLDIER'S TALE
I thought I would listen to what I 'assumed' would be 'noise', for a few minutes, before dinner. Turned out, I could not move for the entire hour the piece lasted!
Fascinating!! I could not leave it. The story is so irresistible. The Music and the story are perfectly matched. You cannot conceive of one, without the other.
The narrator on my version, was Sir John Gielgud. When it comes to voice, he is the master.
The Trumpet part was extremely difficult playing, but the Boston Symphony Chamber Players were up to the task.
I will listen to Firebird and / or Rite tomorrow.
Cheers |
Yes, he can! Well, he is very old now (88) and not playing like he used too; but, he definitely could. Interesting and unique tone on the tenor for a player playing in that style. Another, almost forgotten. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mc7SydNIEg |
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Listening to Pandora. Saxophonist Buck Hill playing a tune called 'Yesterdays' from the album 'This Is Buck Hill'. I've never heard of Buck Hill before. Check him out if you have a Rhapsody account.
The cat can play.
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****You get the impression this is BeBop being born or at least weaned. ****
That's exactly what it was. Beautiful player and a great example for understanding the evolution of the harmonic language of jazz improvisation. Navarro was a kind of link between the swing players and the bebop players that he influenced (Clifford Brown), who would later play in an even more harmonically sophisticated style. It's particularly clear when one compares some of the sidemen playing along side Navarro. Many of these swing players were still locked into a harmonic concept which stayed very close to the basic building blocks of each chord. One can hear how Navarro was more adventurous by comparison and strayed farther away from those basics, but still relatively "inside" the harmony. Later, more modern players like Brown would go further outside the harmonies and, just as modern classical composers (Stravinsky) did, threw away a lot of the traditional rules of harmony. Keep that in mind as an interesting and important parallel before being too quick to judge Stravinsky's concept of a "beautiful melody". Cheers. |
Today's Playlist:
Fats Navarro and Tadd Dameron -- THE COMPLETE BLUE NOTE and CAPITOL RECORDINGS.
2CD set.
My first CD by Navarro. CD #1 is Dameron with Fats on three different sets / groups, and another set of Dameron with Miles Davis.
CD #2 is Fats with Howard McGhee, Fats with Bud Powell and Fats with Benny Goodman. The set with McGhee is awesome! Two great trumpet players dueling!
Fats died at age 26. This guy was in a class by himself. The most beautiful trumpet playing I have ever heard.
Some others on board include Sonny Rollins, Wardell Gray, Dexter Gordon, Milt Jackson and Kenny Clarke. And this is when they were all young!!
Excellent booklet with great photos.
Recorded 1947-49, Mono. Great sound.
Fats Navarro -- THE FATS NAVARRO STORY
4CD box
"Fats Navarro's trumpet had a clear singing quality and purity of tone that no other trumpet player could match. He was BeBop's most perfect trumpeter."
This was an uncreditied review written on the back of the Box Set. It says it all. He is now my favorite.
Outstanding Booklet with photos and notes. Includes Bird and Eckstine among others.
Mono.
I think anyone who has not heard Navarro before, will have to rearrange their Jazz Trumpet pecking order. He really is that good.
You get the impression this is BeBop being born or at least weaned.
Cheers |
Awesome! Thanks. And nothing like the sound of a real horn section; not the synth crap on a lot of the "new" stuff.
BTW, check out the pool player's breaking shot as the tune ends and the camera pans away. Right with the drummer's final hit; one could not have have planned that better :) |
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Today's playlist:
Beethoven -- PIANO SONATAS
"Pathetique" "Moonlight" "Appassionata" / Alfred Brendel
From a master of Beethoven.
Beethoven -- SYMPHONY NO. 9
The Deutsche Kammerphilharmondie / Paavo Jarvi
Second Movement always reminds me of the NBC nightly news with Chet Huntley and David Brinkley. Hard to believe now.
Bohm still rules.
Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown -- STANDING MY GROUND
La/Tx 'border' blues. Born in Louisiana, raised on the Texas side. Texas Blues is a distinctive style.
Clifton Chenier -- BOGALUSA BOOGIE
Le Blues De La Louisiane! Parlez-Vous ???
Like a little accordion and rubboard, and a whole lot of French in your blues? Check it out. Great cover photo.
Cheers |
I agree with everything Frogman has posted lately about Stravinsky, especially the suggestion to listen to a wide variety of his music. He was truly a musical chameleon, with the ability to write pretty much anything in any style. Mozart is really the only other major composer who was the same in that regard.
Stravinsky was much like his good friend Pablo Picasso in this respect. The two were close, and are often compared to each other. |
Well said, Ghosthouse. Wonderful music. |
The Bird thing was great. I love tidbits like that. If Igor went to see Bird play, he can't be all bad. :)
I ordered the Soldier's Tale and The Three Ballets. I hope the CDs have good notes. I have Rite and Firebird on LP. So, I did listen to them back in the day. I guess it was just too different at the time.
At that time my favorite music was Beethoven's 6th. I seldom listen to the 6th today. I guess we all move on.
***"God is closer to me than others of my art" - LV Beethoven*****
This is not arrogance, just fact.:)
I thought Berg's LULU was a total disaster, but, EVERY reveiw of that music I have ever read has been over the top positive. The greatest thing since sliced bread! It must be me. There is a Berg piece on Soldier's Tale CD.
Cheers |
Because of this discussion I will listen to Stravinsky's "Symphony of Psalms" later today. To my ear, there is beauty there. Is it the beauty of Debussy or Ravel? No. For me, it is something more austere, transcendent and moving. |
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****Are you trying to destory all of my idols in one night? :)**** Now, THAT'S very funny. Not at all; even if it may seem like it. Just trying to push your process of discovery (Stravinsky) in a more open-minded direction. I am truly glad that, even after your previous rants about Stravinsky and "modern" composers in general, that you have decided to give Igor a shot. However, you seem to be going into it with a bias against him. Simply an observation on my part based on what you have written now and previously, and probably just as unreliable as comments about Stravinsky's personality. Me? I would rather wait until I meet him :-) before making such a judgment and let his music do the talking first. Most importantly, if one of my acknowledged idols says "Hey, check this out," I will look long and hard for what it is I am not seeing (hearing) at first. But, just for kicks and some good natured idol destruction: http://stillchaos.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/the-necessity-of-arroganceFrom Beethoven.ws : "In Prince Lichnowski's house in Vienna, where he lived, he was said to be stubborn. He would deliberately arrive late at meal times and he paid little attention to the way he dressed. The young genius had always had a brusque, arrogant personality." "God is closer to me than others of my art" - LV Beethoven http://mikelynchcartoons.blogspot.com/2009/12/schulzs-beethoven-schroeders-muse.htmlI don't know which of Stravinsky's works you ordered besides "L'Histoire", but keep something in mind when you listen to them. Stravinsky, probably more so than any other major composer, was known for composing in an amazing range of styles; in fact, he was criticized for that. So, before making a final verdict I would make sure you have heard a fairly wide range of his music. |
*****BTW, did you know that Bird wanted to study with Stravinsky?******
Are you trying to destory all of my idols in one night? :)
Cheers |
*****Rok, just curious, what do you base the "arrogant twerk" comment on? ******
From the youtube of him you sent earlier. Just came across that way to me. Nothing to do with music.
Well if he wrote more that LvB, he certainly did not have nearly the impact of Beethoven. But I will see soon enough. I have the Ballets and The Soldiers Tale on order.
I am not hating on the guy. It's just that I have NEVER read anything like that about Beethoven. But, I can't argue with both you and Learsfool. You guys should know. Could be that my reading list is inadequate.
The Media:
You will admit that the powers that be in the art world, went out of their way to support and praise all the Russians that escaped to the West. At least while the Reds were running Russia.
And part of that support was to 'ensure' that they were a success here. Sort of like the support 'West Berlin' got during the cold war. It was a welfare city, but boy did it look good! Esp in comparison to East Berlin.
Solzhenitsyn comes to mind. A person would think, reading his press, that he was the second coming of Hemingway! Same with most other 'defectors'.
We have no disagreement concerning Igor.
Cheers |
Rok, just curious, what do you base the "arrogant twerk" comment on? If you are basing it on his comment about Beethoven, what is arrogant about a statement of fact (Beethoven's laborious composing methodology); especially one in which he praises Beethoven as being "one of the greatest creators of music"?
"Most people who knew him through dealings connected with performances spoke of him as polite, courteous and helpful." - Erik Satie
****And The Masters did not live in the age of hype / media, and the advantages that can bring, if a person is a darling of the press.****
Are you aware that he was far from wealthy and had to be financially supported throughout his career by, among others, Leopold Stokowski? If you are suggesting that his acclaim is the result of "hype", I could tell you that you are seriously mistaken, but I think it would be much more productive to encourage you to actually familiarize yourself with his works before making those insinuations. Have you heard "The Firebird", "Petrushka", "Symphony In Three Movements"? From one of the greatest musical minds ever:
"The death of Stravinsky means the final disappearance of a musical generation which gave music its basic shock at the beginning of this century and which brought about the real departure from Romanticism. Something radically new, even foreign to Western tradition, had to be found for music to survive, and to enter our contemporary era. The glory of Stravinsky was to have belonged to this extremely gifted generation and to be one of the most creative of them all." - Pierre Boulez
Now, re your life span stats:
I hope we can agree that the size of the output is no indication of its quality. Nonetheless, it is true that Mozart was an incredible genius with an output of over six hundred published works (and probably many unpublished); although some are clearly more memorable than others. But, did you know that Stravinsky wrote about twice as many works as Beethoven? So, if one considers that Stravinsky lived about one third longer than Beethoven, then it can fairly be said that Stravinsky was more prolific than Beethoven; for whatever that is worth.
BTW, did you know that Bird wanted to study with Stravinsky? |
Learsfool:
Once I get my Igor CDs, will I hear beautiful melodies?
Cheers. |
Hi Rok - I would add to Frogman's comments a funny story about a professor at a famous music school who taught a class for non-musicians on music appreciation. The course was also required for graduate level music ed students. She famously would begin this course every year by being a little bit late to the first class, slowly walking to the lectern, and announcing - "Beethoven Sucks!" After some stunned silence, someone would finally ask her to repeat it, which she would do. After more stunned silence, she would launch into her first lecture, which was about how most non-musicians only pay attention to melody when they listen to music. And if music was only judged by that standard alone, Beethoven would be nowhere to be found on the list of all time greats. Which would be absurd, of course. He is a great example of being great about pretty much all other aspects of music, though he struggled to write beautiful melodies, as Frogman said. She would use this humorous opening to get people's attention and make them think about all of the other aspects of music that they don't normally pay attention to. |
The Frogman:
Thanks for your answer.
Life spans:
Mozart -- 35
Beethoven -- 57
Stravinsky -- 89
Now think about musical impact and output. And The Masters did not live in the age of hype / media, and the advantages that can bring, if a person is a darling of the press.
IMHO, Igor was an arrogant twerk.
Cheers |
Albertporter:
Thanks for your recommendations.
I ordered the Soldier's Tale with John Gielgud, also a DG 'twofer' with Rite, Firebird and Petrushka.
The DG CD is conducted by Abbado,. who passed away recently.
Cheers |
Beethoven, in spite of all the brilliance, was a composer for who composing was a tedious process. It is well known and documented that he would often make revision after revision of a work or passage, and the sketches for a work would sometimes be three times as long as the final product. It can be fairly said that it was not an easy process for him; unlike a composer like Mozart for who composing was a seemingly effortless process and who would write down final drafts after conceiving the work (often very quickly) in his head. The difference in their respective outputs is probably further proof of this. I believe that is what Stravinsky meant with that comment.
****Too many pieces of music finish too long after the end.****
Igor Stravinsky |
Thomas Wolfe was wrong. You can go home agian. I went yesterday.
Albert Collins, Robert Cray, Johnny Copeland -- SHOWDOWN
Ray Charles, Milt Jackson -- SOUL BROTHERS SOUL MEETING
Great to be back down home.
From The BBC Music Magazine
"Karajan was conducting a Mozart Concerto and leaned over to ask Dennis Brain something. He looked at his music stand, and of course he didn't have the score -it was a motoring magazine! That was quite a moment."
Great English understatement!!
The Orchestra was The London Philharmonica. The interview subject was Neville Marriner. He is 90 now. I gather Karajan was a part of the effort to get the English Orchestras up to 'continental' (German) standards.
Anyone know what this means?
"The example of Beethoven would suffice to convince us that, of all the elements of music, melody is the most accessible to the ear and the least capable of acquisition. Here we have one of the greatest creators of music who spent his whole life imploring the aid of this gift which he lacked."
Igor Stravinsky.
The disscussion was about 'Melody'
Also a great piece on Russian composers and plasyers. Who did, and who did not compose to satisfy the regime. Names a informant for the security police who was part of a famous string quartet.
Interesting stuff.
Cheers |
An interesting version of the Soldiers Tale is narrated by Sting. I have that copy and the one with John Gielgud.
Both are excellent. |
Rok, I think you may find that you have indeed heard the Soldier's Tale before. Many people have, without realizing it was Stravinsky they were listening to. It is a fantastic little work. Very difficult trumpet and violin parts in particular. |
I will be sure to have your post in front of me when I listen to 'The Soldier's Tale'. I noticed that there is a lot of narration in the piece.
The folks on Amazon have their favorite 'narrator'. hahahahaha Gilda Radner was right, 'There is always something'!
One of the CDs avalible has the Stravinsky, along with pieces by Schoenberg and Berg. Yikes!! This one is narrated by Sir John Gielgud.
Cheers
Cheers |
Fantastic piece! It is really a theatrical work with music scored for seven instruments, and is essentially the story of Faust (in this case, a deserting soldier) and his pact with the devil. To understand the "jazz influence", and as always, it's all about context.
When the work was composed (1918?) jazz was just beginning to take shape in America. Stravinsky had never actually heard any jazz but was given some written scores of "jazz" music brought from America by his friend Ernest Ansermet who also conducted the premier of "L'Histoire". Like most serious composers in any genre open to influences from unexpected sources he was intrigued by some of what he "saw" in the written scores without really fully understanding what it actually sounded like. What I am talking about is different from, for instance, the idea of Beethoven being able to "hear" in his head what his music would sound like even though he was deaf. In this case I refer to one of THE biggest challenges for composers and orchestrators and one which continues to the present time: how to notate the FEELING of jazz syncopation. Truth is, it really can't be done. The classic swing feel of jazz can only be approximated when notating jazz and is ultimately left up to the performer to realize it in a credible way. For the geeks, this is what it's about; all others skip to the end :-) :
-Imagine simple, slow tempo (one beat per second), four beats to the measure music: "one, two, three, four" "one, two, three, four" (repeat several times while tapping your foot to that beat).
-Now, while tapping that same beat, subdivide each beat into four equal subdivisions: "ONE (two, three, four), TWO (two, three, four), THREE (two, three, four), FOUR (two, three, four)". Repeat several times.
-Now the fun part: do the same thing, but emphasize FOUR:
"one (two, three, FOUR), two (two, three, FOUR), three (two, three, FOUR), four (two, three, FOUR)"
That emphasized FOUR is the most basic way to describe classic jazz syncopation. The problem for composers trying to notate this is that "FOUR" is too close to the next beat, and if notated this way would sound very "square" (white dude on the dance floor square :-) )
-Now, think Frank Sinatra (same tempo as before) :
"shoo BY doo BY doo (four, one) EX chang ING glan CE s stran GERS in THE night". Note that the emphasized subdivision has a different feeling than the previous example. In this case it is closer to when each beat is subdivided into threes (triplets) with the emphasis on the third subdivision:
"one (two, THREE), two (two, THREE), three (two, THREE), four (two, THREE).
Closer, but still not right; now the emphasis is a little too far from the next downbeat. That's the dilemma; you need something in between the two examples. So, most smart jazz composers often don't bother at all and notate the music with a simple duplet (in twos) subdivision and leave it up to the performer to find the correct feeling. Back to Stravinsky:
In "L'Histoire" there are three "Dances", one of which Stravinsky titled "Ragtime". Ragtime, as we all know, was one of the earliest forms of "jazz". Listen to Stravinsky's "Ragtime" and you will note, besides the constantly changing time signatures (odd meter) and syncopation, a recurring musical figure like the above example of subdivision in fours, but this time in a much faster tempo:
"da TA da TA da"
First heard in the bassoon about thirty seconds into the "Ragtime". I guess one could say that was Stravinsky's idea of swinging his ass off :-)
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I read today that Stravinsky's, 'The Soldier's Tale', has Jazz elements or influence. Has anyone heard it, or have any comments?
Cheers |
Today's Playlist:
Bebop & Beyond -- PLAYS THELONIOUS MONK
It's Monk's Music! Nuff said.
Jazz Futures -- LIVE IN CONCERT
Good to see and hear 'Young lions' in action and playing real Jazz.
Players include: Roy Hargrove, Antonio Hart, Christian McBride, Mark Whitfield, BENNY green, Marion Jordan, Tim Warfield and Carl Allen.
Various Artists -- THE BEST OF KEN BURNS JAZZ
This just one single CD. Takes us from Armstrong and Jelly Roll Morton up through Miles, Coltrane and the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. Great selection of tunes.
Cheers |
****My overall, and lasting impression, was one of sadness****
Indeed! Can you imagine having to leave your country for artistic freedom?! Actually, I know all about having to leave one's country for freedom; but, that has nothing to do with jazz and is way too personal for this thread. Europe during the early part of the twentieth century was indeed a very sad place with a great deal of social and political turmoil that makes much (not all) of our American "turmoil" seem petty by comparison. One silver lining was that the sadness inspired some incredible, if difficult and dark, music. In typical American fashion we tend to forget how blessed we are in this country; problems and all. |
*****I hope his health is ok.*****
So do I. His last posts did not indicate he was having any problems. He did leave during a 'ruckus' period, so he may just be sick of me! :)
Cheers |
The Frogman:
The documentary on Stravinski was very interesting. My overall, and lasting impression, was one of sadness. Europe Sucks! Think of how his life would have been different if he had been born here.
One of the the biggest advantages the Masters, (mozart, beethoven, etc....), have over 20th century composers, is that, we will never see, or hear them. They will remain idealized in our minds forever. We will only 'know' them thru their music.
He did not come across as the most sympathetic of persons in the documentary. But, he did like Johnnie Walker!!
I have the 'The Rite of Spring' on LP, by Colin Davis conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra. That's the one with the naked, spray painted folks on the cover.
Thanks for the clips.
Cheers |
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I share your concern; I hope O-10 is OK. Glad you enjoy the dialogue. |
Like many who glance at this never ending dialogue, I enjoy the commentary. I am concerned though that the original poster Orpheus10 has not posted in over two months, I hope his health is ok. |
**** I have no Stravinsky on CD. :( Several on LP. Any recomendations on Rite of Spring performances?**** I knew I would eventually break you (down) :-) ****I think this music almost requires a visual component**** Hah! While it can certainly stand on its own, it was originally composed as music for a ballet. While the music is often credited for being the reason for the near-riot at the premier, it was the avant garde and very sexually suggestive (Lenny's comments) choreography that was mostly responsible. For recordings: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?gmusi&1369359822&read&keyw&zzrite=of=spring |
The Frogman:
*****The Rite of Spring******
Fascinating! I think Lenny, as always, never forgot he was on camera. I wonder if the young Germans had ever seen the likes of him?
Very good insights into how an Orchestra prepares. I think the flute player was still under stress as they walked out for the performance. :)
I think this music almost requires a visual component. I looked, and I have no Stravinsky on CD. :( Several on LP. Any recomendations on Rite of Spring performances?
Thanks for the clips. Very educational.
Cheers |
The Frogman:
******The Beethoven Rehearsal*****
He was almost as slow as Bohm.
Wunderbar! Vielen Dank.
Cheers |
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A patron walked up to a famous pianist and stated," I would give my life to play piano like you," to which he answered, " I already did." |
Learsfool / The Frogman:
Thanks for your detailed and comprehensive answers. I am just amazed and awed by it all. You guys have the perfect job.
Thanks
Cheers |
Excellent and thorough comments by Learsfool. I would add or expound on a couple of points:
During the dress rehearsal it is usually the INTENTION to play a work from beginning to end without interruption. That is not always what happens as the conductor may still decide that a particular passage requires additional work. It is not necessarily a "let's play the whole thing no matter what" approach. Another thing that happens during a dress rehearsal is that it is often the first and only time that all the pieces on the program will be rehearsed in "concert order". This is very important since up to that point the works will probably have been rehearsed in a different order than what the audience will hear for time-management reasons and to make concessions to the soloist's schedule.
Learsfool makes some important comments about conducting and rehearsal techniques and the different abilities of various conductors. The conductor/orchestra relationship is just that; a relationship. In fairness (to conductors), it should be pointed out that certain orchestras are notorious for and have reputations for being difficult for conductors to work with and do little to create an amicable working relationship with conductors. It is the job of a professional musician to work with a conductor, no matter his/her ability, in a way that will result in good music making. That doesn't always happen. Of course, as Learsfool correctly points out, some conductors make it difficult to impossible to do that and they reap what they sow. Young conductors, due to insecurity or otherwise, don't always respect or appreciate the incredible amount of experience that some of the older players in some orchestras have and don't understand the futility of trying to rule (conduct) with an iron fist. Still, as in any type of relationship, the best results are usually achieved by "taking the high road".
Fundamentally, the way that a jazz group rehearses is not terribly different from that of an orchestra. If it is an established ensemble the players know each other's playing intimately and time-management is not an issue. If it was, for instance, Miles' rhythm section rehearsing for Dizzy's birthday party there was probably little to no rehearsal time put in other than a discussion of what tunes they would play with the possible exception of a special arrangement of "Happy Birthday" that one of them came up with while in the car on the way there. If the tunes to be played were "standards" (in the broad sense or "standard" for that group) there really is no need to rehearse since they all know the tunes and will probably follow the usual format of "play the head (melody), improvised solo's (order to be decided before hand or even while playing the tune, melody and out". If the rehearsals are for, say, a recording or live performance of new (or unfamiliar) material it will be written down as a formal "chart" since it could be a difficult and complex tune with unusual chord changes. Eventually, however, most groups will have the tune (and chord changes) memorized. It should be pointed out that as complex as some of these jazz tunes are, they are all relatively short compared to symphonic music (duh!) and they lend themselves much more readily to memorization. The language of jazz has certain "rules" about its performance that very experienced player understands. These are part of the tradition and makes it possible for players that don't play together on a regular basis to perform at a credible level. |
Hi Rok - answers to your questions will vary widely according to the conductor involved. They control what happens in rehearsals. Ideally, a dress rehearsal of an opera is indeed a complete run-through, though depending on how close to the performance it is, the lead singers may be "marking," in other words, not singing full out. This depends on the rehearsal and performance schedules, and the individual singers.
Ideally, a dress rehearsal of a symphonic performance is also a complete run-through, though if it is on the same day as the first performance, as it so often is, the brass section in particular will not be playing full out. I personally hate dress rehearsals on performance days, but that is almost always when they are. This is actually normally due to the soloist's schedule. Usually they don't come in until the day before, for the second to last rehearsal, then there is the dress the morning of the first show.
As for the orchestra not meeting expectations, again this depends on the conductor and the ensemble. No one is perfect - many mistakes are made in almost every performance, though the vast majority of them will go completely unnoticed by almost the entire audience. One of my teachers said once - batting .300 is great for baseball, but doesn't cut it in music, which is hilarious. But absolutely no one is note perfect all the time. In my opinion, far too much emphasis today is placed on not making any mistakes, rather than really making music. This is due to a couple of different factors - the greatly increasing technical proficiency of young musicians coming out of school - already far, far higher than when I came out of school in the late 80's - and also the availability of so many recordings now where mistakes have been digitally edited out. This has increased pressure on live performers greatly, again leading to players just trying not to make any mistakes rather than really getting into the music.
Often the very first rehearsal of a symphony will be a complete run-through, too, by the way. The players usually like this very much, as they see the conductor's tempi, etc. right off the bat, and get a feel for how the piece is going to go. Not all conductors will do this, however, again every one is different. Some have great time management but are not musically very good, others have horrible time management in rehearsals, which usually leads to sections of the music feeling very uncomfortable in the first performance. Very rarely are great musicianship and great time management present in the same conductor. As far as a conductor's expectations, it is their job to show this as much as possible with their conducting (which is all they can do in a performance), though of course they stop and talk a lot in rehearsals, too. Again, the quality and effectiveness of what they have to offer varies quite a bit. Some conductors have much better ears and are better at fixing certain kinds of issues than others, etc. Bad conductors will also often try to micro-manage everything, instead of letting us do what we do. Young conductors often fall into this trap, even though most of the orchestra knows the pieces way better than they do. Other times many conductors think they have to re-invent the wheel in an often played work, and will do stupid things that don't make much sense. Or they might make a horrible mistake themselves in a performance. In almost every case, the orchestra will save their butts, unless they really don't like the guy. There is a very famous story about the Boston Symphony letting a performance of Ein Heldenleben come to a screeching halt because they really hated the conductor, who was sky high on coke on the night, as he often was. The conductor in question is a VERY big name, and is indeed a good musician, though. Bottom line is - don't assume the conductor always knows what they are doing. Another kind, by the way, is one who may know exactly how they want something to sound - perhaps they are a great rehearsal pianist, for instance, but they can't actually conduct to save their lives. They have no physical ability to communicate to a large ensemble what they actually want to happen musically (or even time-wise, in the worst cases). There are many ballet and opera conductors like this out there.
I believe some time ago in this same thread we discussed job security issues - all union orchestras have a peer-review board type of system in place, so conductors can't just fire someone for no real reason, much like lawyers and doctors have. Normally, though, the process doesn't actually get that far - something is usually worked out to where the musician "retires" early. There is also a tenure process in all orchestras, usually one, sometimes two years in length. If at the end of that period the recently hired musician is deemed not up to snuff, they are not tenured in the first place.
Hope this answers your questions reasonably. |
The Frogman & Learsfool:
I find Rehearsal as fascinating as the actual performance.
I have seen clips on TV where the Orchestra plays a segment, then the conductor communicates his desires and they make notations etc... and then they play some more and then stop and so on and on.
My questions are:
When a symphony Orchestra is in rehearsal for an upcoming performance, do they, at any time during preparation, play the entire program straight through without stopping? Esp the elaborate stuff like LvB's Ninth.
Opera: Does a dress rehearsal mean, that they perform the entire Opera exactly as they will on opening night?
Doing a symphonic performance, how often does the orchestra fail to meet the Conductor's desires and expectations, that he made clear he wanted, during rehearsal? Consequences?
How do Jazz groups rehearse? How would a typical Jazz (small group) rehearsal be conducted? Does the leader influence what the members of the group play? Is anything ever written down?
Can you guys talk about this?
Thanks
Cheers |
Absolutely, Learsfool; later this evening. Very thought provoking comments. Everyone have a great day. |
OK, after the distractions, are there any comments on my previous post? |
Frogman, thank you for withdrawing your comment. Knowing what to say, when to say it and when not to say something is a sign of a cultured person. Although truth be told Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Billie Holiday, Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, John Coltrane & Wynton Marsalis are nearly always talking about race in America with their music. It's a quality that rap/hip-hop shares. |
Great post, Mapman. I salute you, sir. I especially liked:
****Disregard any specific genre completely and run the risk of missing perhaps an important part of the big picture. Or missing out on a good learning opportunity at a minimum.**** |
There are some rap/hip hop artists and tunes that I enjoy as much as anything else these days, at least in limited doses.
A musical trend is a musical trend. The only difference is the magnitude/extent and the perspective from which you observe it, which has a lot to do with ones personal life experience.
Music can be a great unifier. I find it all to be of interest.
Disregard any specific genre completely and run the risk of missing perhaps an important part of the big picture. Or missing out on a good learning opportunity at a minimum.
I find I enjoy music the most these days when I just listen and pay no attention to genre labels attached.
Then there is culture and various levels of culture, including high culture. They all have something to say musically. That's part of what makes music so fascinating, at least for me. |
Oh, and let's not forget our educational system. But, you know what?.. I really don't want to go any further down this road. Mea culpa for taking that detour; it was pertinent (in my mind) about the discussion about the music. This is a thread about music and this topic is most definitely a provocative one. So please consider this a retraction of my comment. But, if you must...fire away. |
