*****Not exactly Coleman Hawkins*****
The Frogman has a great gift for understatement!
I did the WIKI thingy on the guys you said took over where Trane left off.
Trane 'left off' about 2 light years South-East of the Orion Nebula. These guys 'started off with 'Rock-Jazz'. (WTF??)
Media hype to the contrary, they are not seminal figures is Jazz. They followed the money and probably made a good living. Probably the smart thing for them to do.
Trane's heirs? Not exactly!!
Cheers |
Rok, People do a lot of stupid things "all the time". That's why I try not to.
I will keep posting different great jazz from the 70's,just so you can talk about their bad clothing choices. |
****There is no way ,at least for me, to categorize a decade. There was so much going on !!!!!******
People do it all the time. Roaring 20's ?? Proabley wasn't too much roaring going on in Idaho. But there was in NYC and Chicago. But they are still the roaring 20's. I am sure there are names for the 50s 60s and 70s. I am too lazy to google.
The dominant theme is what we are looking at here. Marginal players and music does not count.
The biggest blow could have been the demise of Blue Note.
And yes Frogman, apparel does matter. It tells you a lot about the person's attitude towards the music they are playing. I can just see the NYPO in tank tops with' hip-hop' baseball caps. The women in cutoffs with rings in their noses. Should not affect their playing ability, but it sure would affect my reception and perception of any music they might play.
Cheers |
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*****Rok, "What is it you agree about Hancock"? I was into "fusion" at that time, consequently I have no contradictions; Herbie's music at that time was most distinctly "fusion". Are you saying you liked some fusion, but didn't like other "fusion"?******
I am saying that Hancock is a lot more, than his dabble in 'Fusion'. The man is a very accomplished musician. Check out his output. Some of his tunes are now standards. He Teaches at UCLA. And yes, I like SOME of almost everything. But we are forced to speak inn generalities. Fusion was nonsense, with a few nice tunes here and there.
I have no use for Rock, but I do like some of Rod Stewart. I have a complilation of Rock from the 80's. All hits. I like that. Could I listen to a Rock LP from start to finish? No!
Since I dislike Rock, why would I like Rock infected Jazz. I feel silly using the words Rock and Jazz together.
Rock destoryed Rock & Roll, a young and fun music, and came close to destorying Jazz. Just a bunch of Drug crazed noise makers. And the entire music establisment just looked on, admiring the emperor's new clothes. $$$$???? Even made up 'catergories' at the Grammys, so they could win something.
Lots of folks tried to make a living off 'Fusion', Hancock was not one of those. He didn't have to, he could play Jazz. He did experiment with Rock and Classical integration into Jazz. Talented folks do that sort of thing. Explore. And remember, he did play with pre-Sinbad Miles.
BTW, there is much more Jazz in Blue-Grass than there is in Rock. That would be an interesting "Fusion".
Cheers |
O-10, I am not quite sure why there seems to be an element of bickering or defensiveness in your recent posts. I realize that it's always tricky when putting thoughts in writing in a way that conveys the intended message, and I am willing to leave it at that; and apologies if I am misconstruing. I believe in clarity and while I am sure that I fall woefully short of that goal, it is my goal nonetheless. Words matter. I'd like to address a couple of your comments:
Re "the 70s": this was your opening sentence:
****Well aficionados, as much as we liked those decades, it's time to move on to the 70's, and examine that decade in detail****
Further, at no point in your post did you even mention "fusion". So, how does one examine the decade "in detail" without examining the music that, either didn't meet the popular definition of "fusion", or is music that is simply showing the seed of the general movement of that decade toward fusion. As Rok shows in his most recent post the term hasn't even been clearly defined yet. So, my intention was (and is) to look at the music of that decade "in detail".
Now, as far as what music, exactly, "exemplifies that decade":
Part of my intention was to point out "in detail" that there was a lot of music that, not only continued the hard-bop (and other) jazz tradition, but was fusion that informed or influenced the music that many listeners would go on to think of as "fusion". A lot of this music became popular, but was by no means the music that kept a closer connection to what defines good jazz: a high level of harmonic and rhythmic sophistication, inventiveness, and a high level of improvisational sophistication. Gato and Sanborn (to name two), as fun and listenable as their music is, don't meet those standards. Much of that music was, or would morph into what many would go on to call "smooth-jazz". The point is that there is a lot of "fusion" that never became "popular" precisely because it is challenging for many listeners, but that is the fusion that most deserves to be looked at. If "popularity" defines what music exemplifies a decade I must say that I have a problem with that notion and find a contradiction in the premise.
Much has been said on this thread about the idea that "popularity" defines what is good. I still disagree with that notion and I have never gotten a good explanation for this dichotomy (I realize that I am using broad brush strokes here): I think it's fair to say that Rok dislikes most "fusion"; certainly as defined by players such as Gato, Sanborn and Metheny. Yet, they are (were) hugely popular. However, he likes Headhunters; they were not "popular". Yet, Headhunters played music that was on an infinitely higher level as defined by the standards mentioned previously. Discerning listener that he is, I am sure that is the reason why.
Re my role as "leader":
Not quite sure what that means. I am a firm believer in democracy so I think everyone's contributions will shape the direction of the discussion. However, if my comments above don't suggest wanting to take things in a certain "in detail" direction, I will try to be more clear.
Re "Are we going to get into the music, or what?"
I thought that was precisely what I have been doing through my comments and posts; unless, of course, personal attire somehow says more about the music :-)
BTW, much of Joe Henderson's music in the 70's and beyond was most certainly "fusion". So, perhaps the intention is not to look at the music "in detail". If that is the case, I am not quite sure I can be of much help; and certainly not "lead". I would suggest again to look at the list by the author of the article Rok posted a few posts ago. It's quite good and, to my mind (and obviously the author's also) it "exemplifies" the 70's.
Regards. |
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[Fusion: in popular music: combining different styles ]
One of the definitions of FUSION. My question is, exactly what different styles or genres are being 'Fused' in Fusion-Jazz? And even more importantly, why?
And since there are many genres, does the phrase. Fusion-Jazz, always mean the same combination?
Cheers |
Oh yeah, and he did need a haircut. |
The 70s saw the growth of a tenor saxophone style that was a direct extension of Coltrane's. Dave Liebman, Miles and Elvin alum, in many ways took over where Trane left off. This tenor style would also become a large part of the fusion-jazz tenor style that players like Michael Brecker would make practically ubiquitous. Not exactly Coleman Hawkins, but this is great tenor playing and beautiful ballad playing: https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=BrIfp7F6wR8 |
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Rok, "What is it you agree about Hancock"? I was into "fusion" at that time, consequently I have no contradictions; Herbie's music at that time was most distinctly "fusion". Are you saying you liked some fusion, but didn't like other "fusion"?
Enjoy the music.
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Now, Now, Frogman. You can't use the Masters that made LPs during the 70's (Joe Henderson), as being representative or typical of the music made during that era. Even I, have most of his stuff.
You must stay with the guys who need haircuts and forgot to get their suits out of the cleaners. That's how the 70's were different.
I agree on Hancock. But Lord, just compare them to MJQ in appearance. Why did they have to dress like that?
Joe Henderson: That is serious Jazz cover art. Compared to Miles with the cartoon people. The Miles cover was a sign of the times.
Cheers |
In my last post, the question was posed, "Would you like to lead us through the 70's"? I'm still waiting for a definitive answer.
Your first sentence seems to say "Yes". Now I will respond to your post as our new leader in this 70's decade.
The "bell bottomed trousers" was a statement of fact related to the 70's without a musical connection of any kind, the same as the statement about "fusion", which is what the music Herby was playing at that time is referred to; it was your interpretation that took both statements into a different direction.
Are we going to get into the music, or what?
Enjoy the music.
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Great to see new contributors/participants; welcome all and I look forward to your clips. O-10, not sure I am necessarily looking for a debate, although, as you know, I don't shy away from one; and while Rok's silence is sometimes deafening, he makes up for it when he makes HIS noise :-) I also appreciate Acman3's economy of words (kind of like later Wayne Shorter), I like how he gets his point across with music clips only. I sense the thread is at a Milestone(s) of sorts (pun intended) and we should capitalize on that. Rok, while I wouldn't call that list and commentary definitive I think the author makes some good points and his list of twenty is very very good imo. I appreciate your evenhandedness and candor in your own comments;but I disagree that the 70s/80's was a sterile period in jazz, in fact I think it was, as well as being transitional (isn't it always transitional? its the nature of the music, its always evolving), very exciting. I think you are mellowing :-) The author makes two points that I believe I made in recent posts: ****the predujices disappear the deeper one gets into something**** I wrote: ****We move way too quickly through an era and dont dig deep enough. I think that is why some of the stereotypes about genres hang us up**** I think that there may be, as the author points out, a misconception or stereotype about what music from that era (70s) is about. It is not simply the kind of fusion exemplified by Gato, Sanborn and others. This music was mostly very accesible in as much as it was tuneful or melodic in a traditional way and very pleasant to listen to, but not very adventurous harmonically or rhythmically. There was also a lot of music (like the Woody Shaw clips show) that is a more direct extension of the hard bop style that gets a lot of play in this thread; almost all acoustic and unquestionably Jazz. Then, there was the electric stuff that went to totally new places. Frankly, I am taken aback by the relegation of something like "Sly" by Herbie's "Headhunters" to a comparion to bellbottoms because of the "funk" stereotype. No problem with not liking something, but to not appreciate the incredible level of inventive improvisation and musical interaction (hallmarks of good jazz) that the band shows in that track leaves me almost speechless. Another favorite from the 70s. Sterile? Really?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1drMpkjM1DA |
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Best live jazz performance for me to date was French act julien lourau groove gang at snug harbor club in New Orleans just prior to the jazz heritage festival there a few years back. Lord in heaven were those guys something else! 😎 |
Now is the best time for jazz. Lots of wonderful new talents snd recordings out there not mention many remasters and reissues of classics from over the years plus the originals as well. More than ever in essence. And most modern jazz recordings even sound very good in a different and non analogue way compared to those from the "golden age". It's all out there for the taking. Not to mention all the live stuff going on. Oh yeah and same applies to all music in general. It's the best time ever to be a music lover.
The trend in jazz these days seems to to take it different directions as part of all the various world music avenues. Globalization of jazz per se. Another great contribution of the usa to world culture. Sure beats mtv. 😉 |
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Acman3, thanks for turning me on to those Woody Shaw clips! |
I submit this as fodder for discussion.. No one is saying it's accurate, let along definitive. Just this guy's opinion. https://numeralnine.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/twenty-perfect-jazz-albums-of-the-1970s/But, to me, it does reinforce my belief that the 70 / 80s were a sterile period for Jazz. Maybe it's just that it was in a period of transistion. Maybe it's something as simple as the deterioration of the cover art. Where the hell were the classic Blue Note covers. I know it sounds silly, but to me it was a different, and not better, era than the beginning(Nawlins) thru the 60's. The entire scene just had a different feel to my senses. Like, where did everyone go?? Someone said Jazz died in 1959. It did not die, but what came later, gradually evolved into something very different. Better or worst? Your call. They say, 1939 was Hollywood's greatest year. Looking back, I can readily see that. And remember 1939 was pre blockbuster era. Little to no special effects. No star wars etc.... Twenty years later, some say Jazz had it's greatest year. And looking back, I can readily see that also. Just one non-caring Frenchman's opinion. Cheers |
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Hello Mapman - Yes, I'm recently aware of Soft Machine's Canterbury/psychedelic connection, though by the time of 5, I don't think there's much left of that sound. Did not know their influence on Prog Rock or your Caravan. Interesting you should mention Miles and Bitches Brew. I was thinking about Miles while listening to Soft Machine last night. There's definitely a connection (at least in my mind). A similar sort of (free-form?) loose improvisational structure maybe. But not so out there and cacophonous as something I once heard by Pharaoh Sanders (and hope to never again). I'll have to pull out In A Silent Way and compare that as well. |
Ghost soft machine was an early Canterbury rock group that was very influential to other later progressive rock groups. Caravan. Is one of my favorites that comes to mind. I was never big on soft machine themselves though. Kind of a psychedelic rock sound with a penchant for jazz like jamming. Some caravan had more outright jazz influences than others. Their album Waterloo lily is the main one that I think a jazz lover might take too. Great album. Soft machine predates bitches brew btw and I could guess that groups like soft machine were an influence on miles in the late sixties. |
Rok - Thanks for your reply and especially for giving Soft Machine a listen. I'm definitely interested in your opinion and that of Orpheus and Frogman. Beyond the heavily improvisational nature of their music I don't know if what they play is jazz either. But then, I probably can't tell you what jazz is to begin with. At any rate, if you do Spotify and are interested, you can find a lot more of Soft Machine there. I owned '5' long ago. Was glad to rediscover it the other night. it's a bit of a stretch for me but not totally out of reach. It holds my interest.
By the way, if the time machine has moved into the '80s, and guitarists like Metheny and Scofield are going to get mentioned - don't forget Ralph Towner (although start with him in the 70s). Check out Solstice with Garbarek, Weber & Christensen or Dis w/Garbarek. Don't know if this stuff is jazz either (although I'm not trying to pollute the thread!).
Ciao |
Ghosthouse:
I have never heard of this group. I did google them after I read your post. I watched and listened to a clip of their concert in Paris. I thought it looked a little dated, then realized it was done in 1970!! These guys have been around forever.
I then listened to "5". I should have listened to "5" first, because I thought it was pretty good. But first impressions are the most lasting, and that was the Paris gig. There, everything about them screamed "Rock". From the music to their appearance.
I am not sure they are playing Jazz. That is, as I unbderstand Jazz. O-10 and The Frogman can better speak to that. I did find an interesting statement in one of the reviews on Amazon.
Long ago, someone wrote, "Young people think that any instrumental music (without vocals), is Jazz." This has always stuck with me. This was back when Rock ruled.
From Amazon Reviewer:
"They took the crowd totally by surprise. Their performance was wordless, and contained very little vocal. It was just great playing, with improvisation, and, I learned later, a close relative of jazz fusion.".
Thanks for the post.
Cheers |
**** Rok couldn't care less, ****
I beg your pardon!! How did you come to that conclusion?
I may not know anything about Jazz, but you can't accuse me of not caring. And another thing, you "aficionados" are leaving the 50/60's, and have not even mentioned Jutta Hipp. The baddest Frau in Jazz. Ties in with the 'female' thingy on Wynton.
And besides, my lack of knowledge has never stopped me from posting my opinions!
Cheers |
***Rok I'm jealous because I never owned a "Nehru Jacket"**
What can I say, you are either hip, or you are not. hahahahha
Cheers |
I am not a big Bitches Brew fan like many are and do not like the turn Miles Davis' music and a lot of Jazz took after that although I think things have gotten better again since.
Not to say BB was not good and has a lot to offer jazz-wise. Just that its not one of my favorite cups-of-tea. |
Rok I'm jealous because I never owned a "Nehru Jacket", but that was more into the 60's; I was a turtleneck pendent kind of guy myself. If I could find those bright yellow double knitted bell bottoms with the four inch cuffs, we could do a seance kind of thing over them, I bet they could tell us a lot about the 70's.
Enjoy the music.
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No, we haven't even scratched the surface; that's because only the two of us care to. Rok couldn't care less, Alex doesn't know, Acman post's a sentence every now and then; just who are you going to debate? We can go as deep into the 70's as you like. We can disregard the 80's post, and you can lead us as deep as you like through the 70's, I'll follow.
Enjoy the music.
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Is that it? For the 70s? We haven't even scratched the surface. Personally, I think that is a problem with this thread. We move way too quickly through an era and a style and don't dig nearly deep enough. I think that is why some of the stereotypes about genres and styles hang us up. One man's opinion. |
If I might intrude (thread watcher but not a jazz aficionado) - what are opinions about Soft Machine (e.g., '5')? This is a hugely long thread so apologies if they've already been discussed. Very curious what the usual suspects posting here think! |
Never cared much for Herbie Mann, and whatever one wants to call Herbie's "Headhunters", that record is killer, incredibly influential, and that band was on fire. If Herbie's playing on "Sly" doesn't show what a genius he is, I don't know what would. |
*****I had Herbie's album, I was into fusion at the time. I'll bet Rok had it as well, "Fusion" was a good idea at the time.***
Well, at one time I thought Fusion was Jazz. I dropped it about the same time I got rid of my Bell bottoms and Nehru Jacket.
I hear Herbie Mann, I think Booker T and the MGs. All that Memphis stuff. Good to party to, not so great just to listen to.
Cheers. |
*****"In the 26 years, Wynton hasn't had a woman"******
Damn!! I need to take the boy down to Juarez.
Cheers. |
Now we can go into the eighties: Pat Metheney, George Adams, Stanley Jordan, Bobby McFerrin, David Sanborn, John Scofield, plus the Marsalis Brothers are some of the names that came into prominence during that decade.
I said Wynton Marsalis was the best trumpet player ever when I first heard him. That was when he was a sideman, and before he came out with his first album. I sold all his albums I acquired because they lacked "originality", the key ingredient for something new. While that certainly didn't detract from his trumpet playing skills, those albums indicated his individual music making skills were lacking.
Me and nobody else ever said Wynton couldn't play the trumpet, he just can't compose music; those are two entirely different skills, as long as the music isn't his, it's just fine.
You can give us examples of that decade, or share whatever you choose to share with us.
Enjoy the music.
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Complete and utter bullshit (not to mention, misinformation). First of all, blind auditions are NOT "industry standard"; only in symphony orchestras, and even there there is, afterwards, a probation period to make sure that, as the young lady (?) in the clip decries, all parties concerned are comfortable with the choice. The truth is that, while there are some very good female jazz players (vide Tia Fuller), some get record contracts BECAUSE they are women. A band leader like Wynton picks the very best he can find, based on artistic considerations and wether he feels comfortable for everything from wether the player is an asshole or has terrible body odor. And why not? If there was a woman player stylistically superior and even more versatile (arranger?) as what he has, she would be in the band instead. God help us if the loud cries of bullshit sexism apply too much pressure to the powers that be ($$$) and cause Wynton to dumb down any standards. I don't believe there is any active sexism in jazz. Favorite quote from the clip:
"In the 26 years, Wynton hasn't had a woman"
Unlikely. |
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Frogman, I checked those names and cuts on 'you tube'; of course I had Herbie's album, I was into fusion at the time. I'll bet Rok had it as well, "Fusion" was a good idea at the time. I found some bright yellow, bell bottomed, double knit slacks with three inch cuffs, in the back of my closet a long time ago; since the waist was way too small, they could not have been mine, but the wife said she had no gentleman friends over who left their slacks, so maybe they were mine; if so, they must have been "a good idea at the time".
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, Rok shoots from the hip, but since he had hip surgery, his aim ain't too good. Herbie Mann is one of the all time greats, and I feel quite fortunate to have seen him live.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10, appears there is some kind of incompatibility between the Kindle and whatever device you are using. I, likewise, cannot download your clips on the Kindle, but I can on my IPhone. In case you're interested, my recent posts were:
Woody Shaw "The Moontrane"
Herbie Hancock "Sly"
Hubert Laws "Moment's Notice"
Thanks for the Gato clips; that's his calling card. |
Thanks for the clips, Alexatpos. That rhythm section with Motian and Lafaro was one of the all time greats. Speaking of jazz flute and the 70s, when I think of the 70s CTI records always comes to mind. Before Wynton came along and showed, again, that a player could be equally accomplished as a Classical player as well as Jazz, Julliard student (student of the great Julius Baker) Hubert Laws played with the Metropolitan Opera and NY Phil before becoming a jazz star: https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=JxfB18EPeL8 |
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****Just my way of pointing out that good Jazz is still being played in this day and age. ****
I think I've said that once or twice. :-) |
****Focus, people, focus!!!! :-)******
Just my way of pointing out that good Jazz is still being played in this day and age. We do have a choice. We don't just have to accept the noise makers, just have to look a little harder.
Cheers |
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