Jazz for aficionados
Same thought cross my mind few weeks ago (and I have many of his albums) when I bought the ’House party’ album Here is one album that Jimmy Smith rerorded with Grant Green (the only one, as far as I know) ’I ’m Movin on’ https://youtu.be/owNWGHh3mRg https://youtu.be/-0wCDRKMbqA |
Just lately I came across this album from Nathan Davis, another player that was quite unknown to me ( believe also to 'wider audience' as well) 'Peace Treaty' from 1965. Nathan Davis sextet https://youtu.be/vCA-08W6Nlw https://youtu.be/E9798bA3RuU https://youtu.be/LSuEBjAlH-E https://youtu.be/p3XKtq-EvQ0 |
Nathan Davis: Unknown to me also. Seems to be a brilliant guy, that maybe spent too much time in Europe. On the other hand, He seems to have avoided some of the pitfalls of playing in the US, drugs etc.... but he was away from the source at a critical time, the 1960's. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/obituaries/nathan-davis-jazz-saxophonist-and-educator-is-dead-at-... Maybe great art requires adversity to work against. Cheers |
Rok, you're a fervent nationalist when the subject turns to... anything at all. Thank you keegiam. noun
What is the opposite of nationalist?nationalism(noun) the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other. Antonyms: internationalism, multiculturalism. Yes Sir, thank you again for the kind compliment. Cheers |
Davis spent "too much time in Europe?" Please explain. Davis had a wonderful and important career in the USA. He taught at a major university for over forty years, establishing important programs pertaining to Jazz and Black American music in general. That puts him near the top of the Jazz pecking order in my book. Alex, a long time poster on this thread and a knowledgeable Jazz enthusiast, said Davis was unknown to him. I have been listening to Jazz for over 60 years. He was unknown to me also. The Frogman's first law states, "if they are unknown, there is always a good reason why." Since he can play, has toured with some big time guys when they went to Europe, and has a PhD in music, the logical reason is, he was out of the Jazz scene in the US for quite a while. A lot of important stuff happened in the US during the 60's. He was in Paris. I am sure they love him in France. Maybe, almost as much as they loved Jerry Lewis. Cheers |
I was in the other room a little bit ago when Roon Radio decided to play a Nina Simone track ("I Want A Little Sugar In My Bowl"). I immediately recognized it was Nina Simone, of course, which made me think, "Nobody else sounds like Nina Simone." Then I thought, "Like Billie Holiday." That led me to this question. While nobody really sounds like Billie Holiday, there are singers who try to, but does anybody even *try* to sound like Nina Simone? I can't think of one. She seems to be completely sui generis. What do you guys think? Who tries (or tried) to sound like Nina? Anybody? |
Today's Listen: Dexter Gordon -- OUR MAN IN PARIS Speaking of being unknown. Notes: After a brilliant early career....the tall, forty year old Californian slid into limbo during the 1950's. it was known that he was in California, but he had ceased to be a presence on the jazz scene. .....but most of the jazz public and the critics had either forgotten Gordon or assumed that his career had evaporated. British critic Daniel Halperin -- "when they fade away they hardly ever come back. And there was a time when Dexter Gordon was definitely near vanishing point." All this, while he was still in the country. Imagine being in foreign climes. But he did come back. With a vengeance. willow weep for me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh9CyimkKWc a night in tunisia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jccsHMOdZo scrapple from the apple https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwqciyqFhoA like someone in love** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGXR8odUb4c **nice to hear Bud Powell play. Not on the LP. Cheers |
And now for something completely different: Blossom Dearie / Blossom Time at Ronnie Scott's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLS1LkC1WkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pgy38Vk4_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvEy5iyGh7Q Blossom starts the set/album by remarking, "My mother doesn't know I'm here. She doesn't know I work in nightclubs. "She thinks I'm still in jail." |
Dexter Gordon: Fabulous player and great record! Coincidentally, I posted two or three cuts off that record just a couple of weeks ago. Toss up between he and Wayne Shorter as probably my two favorite tenor players; and if it weren’t due to the fact that Shorter is one of the greatest Jazz composers ever (Dexter was not), Dexter would stand alone in my book. One of Coltrane’s and Rollins’ both main influence; pretty good credential. Personally, I think “unknown” is an overstatement. Maybe somewhat forgotten during the 50’s while in LA. He did move to Europe for 14 years and continued to record there and during occasional visits back to the USA. I was at the Village Vanguard for one of the dates in 1976 heralded as his big return to the USA. Awesome performance. Truly one of the greats. Huge sound and beautiful story telling in his solos with probably the most generous use of musical quotes of anyone; if one likes that sort of thing. One favorite quote was “Mona Lisa”, which can be heard in many of his solos; and it always fit and made musical sense. Sort of a signature thing of his. Dexter makes an interesting comparison to Nathan Davis and the reasons why some players are better known than others. Davis is clearly a good player and as you point out a brilliant man. My comments are not meant to suggest otherwise, or that he is perhaps not deserving of wider recognition. However, the contrast is striking. Two notes and one knows it’s Dexter. His huge sound is immediately recognizable. Fantastic sense of swing and beautifully expressive solos. One of the cuts that I posted previously was “Scrapple From The Apple” and commented that I thought his solo on the cut was, for me, one of the all time great solos on any instrument. Very interesting and a model of thematic development: taking a short, even very simple statement (in this case, a single repeated note) and building an entire long solo that develops and keeps returning to that simple idea. Fantastic! That is why a player can go into semi obscurity due to drug problems (‘50s), even move to Europe for 14 years (!) and when he returns it is heralded as a great event in the music world. He was a giant. Players of that caliber are never forgotten. VERY few exceptions. Davis was a good player. I like his soprano sound and concept more than I like his tenor which sounds a little crass on ballads and overall not nearly as interesting as Dexter’s. His sound is not distinctive which goes to the core of what Jazz is mostly about: individuality. His rhythmic feel is not as grounded and solid like Dexter’s. Good player, but I must say that, IMO, there are many players who are on a similar overall level in towns and cities around the country and teaching in music schools who are local heroes and never get to record as leaders or higher profile sidemen. This may sound like harsh criticism, but is not meant to be. So, the question then becomes, is it surprising that all these players are not better known? Not really. Is this unfair or some sort of slight. I can’t answer that for everyone, but the music world is a tough scene. Very tough! Still, glad to have made the acquaintance. Another favorite Dexter record and one that he himself considered one of his best: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ldEgeU2IYstfUuhavk6y_jkbhhuAHHgSw |
Thanks for the info on Dexter. I just listened to Tunisia and Apple again. When you dissect these performances, I like them mo better. I always check before posting to make sure the album has not been posted recently. I must have over looked yours, or the wording escaped the search. Any way, I was going to post GO tomorrow, so we are even. :) Thanks again for the input. Precise and concise as always. Cheers |
Amazing, but focus on that left hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJhHn-TuDY Over 10,000,000 views... encouraging. |
Gotta love YouTube. Fabulous Oscar Peterson clips! Incredible piano player. That “C Jam Blues” is astounding and one of the best things I’ve seen on Youtube. Thanks, Keegiam. One of the best ever comments posted by a YouTuber about a clip: ”100 buck says those guys brush their teeth on 2 and 4” 😊 Love it. Talk about swinging! And you’re right about his left hand; Peterson had an amazing left hand. Anyone want to get geeky? : I find it interesting that, from all those great clips, you chose that clip (C Jam Blues) to point out his left hand. Alex recently made some interesting comments about piano players and we discussed the things that contribute to a piano player’s tone; the instrument itself being one of them. Peterson’s preferred instrument was our own Schubert’s favorite piano the “Bosendorfer”; a piano with an unusually brilliant sound and unusual clarity and resonance in the .....left hand keys. Not to mention that the low register on the Bosendorfer extends about a half octave lower than the typical 88 key piano. This gives the low register notes extra power and resonance even when those extra lowermost notes are not actually being played. Now, it can’t be seen from the video, but like the comment about brushing one’s teeth, I would bet 100 bucks that he is playing a “Bosendorfer” on that clip. Then, listening to the following three clips, and accounting for the relatively low-fi of YouTube clips, on “Boogie Woogie Blues” it is immediately obvious that he is playing a different make of piano. Warmer, more rounded tone with less resonance. This, likewise, can’t be confirmed on the video, but it’s classic “Steinway” tone. Then, move to the last clip; duo with Niels Pederson. Notice the similarity of that piano’s tone to that of the piano that he plays on the first clip (“C Jam Blues”). Brighter, more resonant, more clarity. Stop the clip at 3:19 ( -55:29) and look closely. There it is, above his left hand; blurry, but obvious: “Bosendorfer”. Just having fun. |
Right you are, Marija. Two weeks really are an eternity here. clhs04, I wondered how it tasted to him? 😊. It was back in HS, that Billy Cobham record was the second “Jazz” record that I ever purchased as a result of hearing the first “Jazz” record I ever purchased, Billy Cobham’s “Crosswinds”, after hearing the great Michael Brecker for the first time playing on it. Stick around. |
Today’s Listen: Booker Ervin -- COOKIN’ Cheap packaging. Notes require microscope. Nippon Columbia(Savoy), Mono, 1960 / 1991. Audiophiles: "This record was cut for the use of a stylus .001 in width and a speed of 331/3 rpm. The use of a wider stylus, or one designed for another speed will destroy the delicate grooves. Y’all be careful now. down in the dumps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaW_NB_2kH8 dee da do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbD4RDXESsI you don’t know what love is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6QdJJZRDJ0 well, well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAEhkLZFDKY Cheers |
Notes require microscopeOr maybe you just need glasses? ;--) You know that move, when you take the CD and you stretch your hands so that you can take a good look at. You do that? Yep, you need them. I have pair of glasses but only when I drive. With them I see like a hawk. Ok, I also wear them when I wanna look tough and smart at the same time. Baj d vej, so great tunes. My favourite of You do not know what love is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NbcDLg1gdv4 |
Few years ago watched documentary about Steinway piano manufacture, very interesting. I had no idea that pianos, even from the same ’series’ all sound different. Is that also the case with the brass instruments? (of same model,make and series) Here is simmilar documentary, much shorter, about Steinway https://youtu.be/WTbdCIZ3W48 |
@Jazz Queen Very nice 'what love is'. Once again by people unknown. I need to get out more. Just received a copy of The 40th anniversary CD of WAR's, 'The World is a Ghetto.' These 4 songs were added to the anniversary CD. They Did not appear on the 1972 recording. You like the Blues? 58 blues https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87fI8zwsfQI war is coming (blues version) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0uytyTADT8 freight train jam https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk9Ep37Vllc the world is a ghetto (rehearsal take) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51jT1wjMOTY Cheers |
Alex, yes they do all sound different. Sometimes very subtly so, but even more important to the player they all respond and feel different. A very personal choice. Some players like a little more resistance, a little “fight” in the response when they blow into the horn and others like a more free less resistant feeling. Sometimes it just feels right for one’s way of playing and it better allows the player to create and shape the sound that he wants. |
The trumpet my dad gave me was a Getzen Super Deluxe. Everyone could hear that the Getzen was brighter and more strident than our favorite, a band member's Conn, which had a sweeter, more mellow tone. We experimented by trading horns and even mouthpieces, but it quickly became obvious the horns themselves had very different sounds. Vive la difference. No need to explain it, right? |
I think Alex wanted to now were there any differences among the same brand and type. If the instrument was made by hand, definitely yes. I see it especially with the guitar at the wood as the building material. The thickness of the upper board, the exact place where it resonates with the below board, the type of the wood, time needed for the wood to be properly dried and ready for shaping, the humidity in the process and finally the skill in the maker, you simply cannot have two same hand crafted. The more they differ, the more we say that they have character. Instrument with character has a will on it’s own. To be able to embrace that force and to add the touch of your own way, is what makes the sound unique and unforgettable. |
Everything you wrote is absolutely true, Marija and it doesn’t apply only to wooden instruments or only to instruments that are made entirely by hand. First, let’s establish that we are talking about high quality instruments since that is what musicians like the ones we consider here play. As I wrote previously the simple answer is, yes, even brass instruments (and woodwinds, including flutes and saxophones) of the same brand and series all sound different to some degree. Why? Many reasons: All quality instruments, including brass, are “hand made” to some extent. They are often assembled and finished by hand. The brass (especially the “bell”) is “burnished” with hand tools in order to give the metal the appropriate “ring”. It is true that with more and more automation used in the process, less hand finishing is done with modern instruments; however, it is still done. This is one of the reasons that the vintage saxophones are often preferred by professionals. Fact: Back in the ‘60s when churches stopped using real bells and instead started using electronic bell sounds, guess where a lot of those old Italian craftsmen bell makers found work....with brass and saxophone manufacturers where they made the “bells” for the instruments. They were masters of working and burnishing the brass. Sadly that is a dying art and there is now more reliance on machines. However, there is still a considerable amount of hand work that goes into the assembly and finishing of the instruments. Why does the assembly matter?: Think about how the various pieces of brass tubing toast make up a trumpet are held together. Some are soldered together and some are pressure fitted. Two pieces of brass tubing held together by a band of brass around the outside applies pressure to the metal. The amount of pressure is never exactly the same for two different instruments. The amount of pressure affects the resonance of the metal, how the instrument will vibrate. Too much pressure kills the resonance. There are many points along the total length of the tubing where that is a factor. There is also the issue of the composition of the metal alloy. It varies; even within the same series by the same manufacturer. The Selmer MK6 series saxophones manufactured during the 40s-60s are considered by many pros the Gold Standard. That is what the majority of players discussed here played and play today. They are generally fantastic instruments, but even within that series there are certain serial # “sub-series” that are particularly great; especially the earlier ones. Why? Well, it turns out that in the late 40’s-early 50’s Selmer used a brass alloy formulation that had more copper than other times. Why? They used spent artillery shells from the wars and which are technically bronze (more copper) and melted them. True story. Those horns are fantastic. Then, you have the issue of the internal acoustical properties of the instruments. Even today with all the computer modeling used to design brass instruments, no two instruments will have internal dimensions that are exactly the same. That is a huge factor. Internal dimensions greatly affect resonance and sound. Then there is the lacquer applied to the brass for that shiny look that never corrodes. Sometimes the instrument is silver or gold plated. Big difference. I could go on, but I hope you get the idea. Most important of all, and as you point out, all this affects the way the instrument feels to the player. I’ve posted this at least once before. Among many other interesting things, the great Phil Woods talks about going to the Selmer factory in France to try saxophones and find “the one” and the reasons that he switched to another brand late in his career. https://youtu.be/6SJxmCzYpoo Compare his tone in that video to his tone in the early days when he played on “the one”: https://youtu.be/3ZTQ0IeYgh4 |
I was actually saying this to keegiam, although i know that he knows this. I remember your previous great comment on the same theme, fro. Thank you once again. It is beautiful to observe the life of the instrument from the very begining of the creation till the moment when the player picks it. Or it is the instrument that chooses the player...? :---) ;--) |
Frogman, thanks again for sharing your vast knowledge and doing so in such well-written form. The tubing and bell on my Getzen were all copper. Do you think that might have been the reason for the bright, strident tone? In general, are different materials used to make brass instruments known to produce certain tone characteristics? Different lacquers? MJ, thanks - really enjoyed the idea of the instrument picking the player. |
Funny, the blues just keep comin' back. A few Chicago favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3cKJ42HAd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy2tEP3I3DM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQM_2liOdUU Re: the Junior Wells, it's not easy to pick one number from his "HooDoo Man Blues" album. Very, very solid, start to finish. |
More From The Good Stuff Thread: harry connick jr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2TcCrf1Imo kenny burrell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXX8d6vLbJ8 oscar peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQewXQvTJbM temptations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA44kLu_VB0 Cheers I don't want to keep posting the Temptations, but they just won't go away. |
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I spent the evening letting Roon Radio pick things to play. I played Art Pepper / Intensity to seed it, then let Roon take it from there. It did pretty well! Nothing obscure or earth shaking, but I enjoyed nearly everything. Some tracks it picked that I particularly enjoyed: Benny Golson, "Serenata" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7rDs_TbFz0 Horace Silver, "Sister Sadie" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmO2pM20MrU Jackie McLean, "Torchin'" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADDGJBt6kwg Freddie Hubbard, "Gypsy Blue" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoUhsjXtWcY Dexter Gordon, "I Was Doing Alright" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6a62E9hQ1Q Joe Henderson, "Out of the Night" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygvgs5jaUhw Kenny Burrell, "Confessin' the Blues" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaWvpeNOB6k Kenny Dorham, "I Had the Craziest Dream" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RL4yPSocho Ike Quebec & Grant Green, "Count Every Star" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-SOS2Lo5yU Sonny Clark, "Eric Walks" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5dIZD2CDmY Donald Byrd, "Duke's Mixture" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8mm5ek8XOI Sonny Rollins, "Global Warming" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0-X5qR08o0 Red Garland Trio, "C-Jam Blues" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4mwdEtx-88 Hank Moble & Lee Morgan, "High and Flighty" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91tBx2Skvg Coleman Hawkins, "Blue Lights" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duV_IAmgUjQ Miles Davis Quintet, "Blues by Five" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaBAfHs4Qc8 |
Wow! A wealth of riches. All great. Thanks, Trentmemphis. . A little more light hearted and Season appropriate. I sent these just a few minutes ago to a clarinet player friend who has two young sons. One named Benny (of course!) and the other, Andrew. From a time when “cute” could be hip and arrangers rose to the occasion: https://youtu.be/akfelIR_nNk https://youtu.be/zvzt_QFHU4Q |
Yep, that is damn good list trentmemphis. |
