Jazz for aficionados
Ghosthouse, that is most certainly the best version of "Cantaloupe Island" I've ever heard; nothing but stars, all of them. I'm really looking forward to receiving that DVD, and seeing all of those musicians who have delighted me over the years on records. . I'm glad you're enjoying the thread, because the thread is most certainly enjoying your contributions. Enjoy the music. |
Hey O - Very pleased to hear about the Blue Note DVD. I just ordered it myself. 3 hours worth of music. If there are any performances on par with Herbie Hancock's/Cantaloupe Island, I'll be very pleased. I was very impressed with that performance. Yes - discovering lots of new music on this thread. As I've said more than once, thank YOU for starting it. |
@inna - thanks for those links. Have listened to Jesse Cook's "Gravity" a bit. If you like him at all, do check out the Carles Benavent "Quartet"...a little more jazz inflected than Cook's stuff but shares the flamenco influence. Shawn Lane! Who knew? Not me. Totally new name. Will have to read up on him and see what he's recorded. By the way, are you familiar with Soft Machine. In the quest for an M. Orch substitute, it struck me there's a remote change they'd be of interest. Maupin's soprano sax solo reminded me. Here's a track from S.M. 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR3fQzhdgZY&ab_channel=riversend21 |
F - Enjoyed reading those Santana comments. What a gracious, humble person (at least based on that). I'll have to try and find out what the Zappa Dylan-parody is about. Didn't know about that. Hmm... soprano sax. That explains a few things. Not my favorite instrument (if I might opine) but bass clarinet - we love it's tone. Time and place for many things. So I wanted to go back and hear Hancock's earlier stuff which led to Takin' Off (also saved in Spotify, Maiden Vogage and Empyrean Isles). What a different feel from HH has T.O.! Being somewhat hit and miss on this Aficionado thread, your earlier post of T'.O. was missed. The alternate take at that link is one of 3 "extra" tracks on the Rudy Van Gelder re-issue. Has seemed to me that higher frequencies get way to much emphasis in "typical" remasters making things sound unpleasantly bright. Not so with the Van Gelder reissues. I love the spaciousness of his recordings. He definitely knew what he was about in the studio. re FH - Blues & The Abstract Truth duly noted. What a lineup! Bill Evans & Eric Dolphy too. Will definitely have to check that out. I do remember people talking about Red Clay when that came out (might be repeating myself). Being late to the jazz party as it were, knew his name but not much else. His soloing in that Blue Note concert video is just INsane! I'd like to know, at the very end, what they are kind of laughing about. He has an almost apologetic look on his face as he turns to Joe Henderson after the finish. The ending on his second solo is a little (anti-climactic?) if not down right odd. Hancock is kind of laughing a little too. That 1985 Blue Note Concert is available as DVD. Will give serious consideration to purchasing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Night_with_Blue_Note https://www.amazon.com/One-Night-Blue-Note-Historic/dp/B0000DZ3HM Okay...blathered on a good bit here. Orpheus - apologies if I'm just trampling ground already well-ploughed. Hope not. |
Ghosthouse, Hancock is a giant and still going strong. He can play credibly in just about any genre including Classical; and as you say, very prolific. "squawking chicken", that's very funny and I can see (hear) why that came to mind. But, that's some funky chicken! You're correcf, it's clavinet. I kinda like it. My guess is that it's an overdub by Herbie of the repetitive syncopated rhythm; works for me. The "reedy sounding instrument" is Bennie Maupin's soprano saxophone. Very funky player with a rough-around-the-edges tone but great feel. His tenor and bass clarinet are very good also. Enjoyed the clavinet retrospecrive; thanks. I posted Herbie's "Takin Off" recently, but was not aware of any alternate takes; thanks for that. Freddie Hubbard is probably my favorite trumpet player. Check out Oliver Nelson's "Blues And The Abstract Truth" for what I think is one of the best trumpet solos on record. You may find this interesting: http://www.afka.net/Articles/1995-01_Tmershi_Duween.htm |
So, you got me reading about Herbie Hancock. Yeesh. Talk about prolific. Not to mention Wiki says he graduated from Grinnell College with degrees in Electrical Engineering and Music. Maybe the EE degree explains the cover of Headhunters a little. A little over a decade before HH there was this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J5riMnfsj0&ab_channel=HerbieHancock-Topic ...and 12 years later, THIS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VN8zH366M8&ab_channel=MacFalko This might be the best video ever posted to this thread! Kidding of course - but it is a pretty great performance. By the way - Have you discussed Freddie Hubbard much on this thread? (It’s all new to me...more or less). What a sweet sounding trumpet...more so in ’62 than in ’85. But his ’85 solo really is killer. |
Blues, perhaps? You got to be fast to follow him. The man was not far from death at the time of the performance, and he knew it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpzLTJ_9twc |
Thanks for sharing that bio., Frogman. You have my admiration. Thanks also for getting me to listen to the Herbie Hancock. I've known of Headhunters for years but never owned it or listened to it recently. '73 would have been junior year in college. I do recall it made some waves. His solo is fantastic. Just amazing. It really soars. The drumming and bass work are great too. So precise. I can't imagine how complex the times are on this stuff. One fly in the ointment...more of an oddity, maybe. There is a repeating riff under Hancock's Rhoads solo. Clavinet, possibly. It actually starts right after the first break at the 2:00 mark and accompanies that reedy sounding soloing instrument (can't decide if that's a sax of some sort or something electronic/synth). Hancock's solo starts after the second break at 5:20 or so. That same riff is non stop in the right channel (listening to headphones) and much lower volume than the Rhoads. Sounds like a chicken squawking in a barnyard. What's weird to me - it doesn't always seem in time with anything else! Like it's a tape loop running fixed to one (time signature?) and doesn't keep up. THAT was a curiosity to me. What's up with that? Let me know if you can interpret! From the sublime to the ridiculous maybe...this was pretty fun. (though I think they got it wrong about that track by The Band) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlLxAULuq9Y&ab_channel=PhunkyPhil |
Ghosthouse, I don't mind; although I usually try and not get into it too much here. I started playing a musical instrument (accordion) at age five. At age twelve I started playing and studying clarinet; soon followed by saxophones and flute. I attended music conservatory and have not done anything professionally except play music (and some teaching) for almost forty years in a variety of genres and mostly in NYC. Listened to this today (again). I love this classic and very influential record by one of the greatest players in contemporary music. Inna's search for newer contemporary jazz made me think of it although the record is over forty years old; but, like "Bitches Brew", I don't think it has been bettered in its genre. The tune "Sly" kills me everytime I hear it. We all have our preferred genres. For me, what turns me on about a performance is a very high level of musicianship: the genre doesn't matter. As far as the core music values of musical interaction between the players and rhythmic groove it doesn't get much better than this, imo.. If nothing else, listen to the four minutes of Herbie's solo beginning at 5:25: the band is on fire and Harvie Mason sounds incredible: http://youtu.be/ngi_qHGsVsU |
Frogman - While I could hear something reminiscent of Santata I didn't pick up on Evil Ways as the take off point much less pick up on the same key or the Gm - C chord vamp. I'm impressed. What's your background in music if you don't mind me asking? Yellow Shark is over (Doing a little painting project. Music alleviates the the tedium). Not really my cuppa and I'm reminded why it's been a lot of years since last I listened to it! Jaga Jazzist Living Room Hush on now. A bit more accessible. |
Agreed, both have artistic merit. In its context, I love Santana's playing. I can do without some of his more recent "star studded" efforts; but, still.... The parody runs deeper than meets the eye. There is more than a passing resemblance to "Evil Ways". Zappa's parody is in the same key (G minor) and the "chord orogreasion" is nothing more than a vamp between two chords (Gm and C) for the entire tune; just like Evil Ways. Hardly a "chord progression; and, that's the point of the parody. |
I tend to agree with the parody assessment, Frogman - as well as your evaluation of Frank's vs Carlos' musicianship. But ultimately each has artistic merit. The possibility of homage never occurred to me until I read some of the comments. As parody though, it ultimately ends up being WAY more than a mocking bit of instrumental music. Excellent in it’s own right whatever the motivation. I have high regard for Zappa. He’s no novelty act and is firmly grounded in music as a (discipline?). Zappa by Barry Miles is very enlightening in that regard. I need to refamiliarize myself with Yellow Shark. |
Parody all the way; and a bit of a dig directed at Santana. Zappa was a genius; and, a very opinionated one. He was also a very serious composer and student of the music of Edgar Varese and Stravinsky. He was a very deep musician whose music has a depth, complexity and level of craft that is leagues beyond Santana's. Santana's strength is that great and instantly recognizable tone with a really strong sense of sincerity and very deep "from the heart" quality in his playing. Most guitar players would say that Zappa was an infinitely better guitar player; just as most composers would say that Zappa was infinitely more accomplished. Which one touches any given listener's heart more is, as always, subjective and dependent on what that listener is looking for in music. |
Hello Inna - no need to apologize...you is what you is and you likes what you likes. Similar situation for me with Yngwie Malmsteen. Though I admire him (along with that other "shredder", Joe Satriani) for technical chops, that performance doesn’t make me want to go out and listen to more of his repertoire. I can’t explain why. Wish I could. On the other hand, the Mehran jalili "Little Song of Hope" hooked me with the first few notes...at least generated enough interest to want to hear more of it (and visit his website). THANKS. Inna - If you like something in a flamenco style, check out Carles Benavent's "Quartet". It ain't your grandfather's flamenco. Excellent sonics and good music (though Orpheus did not care for it). I found it to get better and better with repeated listening. Talking Santana. Is this homage or parody? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0nIlJKSrVg&ab_channel=G%C3%A9rardParame |
Inna, I liked everything about that clip, including the irresistible lady. I think I'm going to expand my collection in that direction. Try this for size https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGW4nrsZJ3o Enjoy the music. |
Orpheus10, you are in Santana mood today. This should be compatible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QST4cJrzs |
Inna, if this current music that sounds like "Mahavishnu" is unknown to you, how do you expect anyone else to know about it? My musical taste is wandering from place to place; tonight it's Santana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Iy2Nk1s4c I think the conversation is progressing very well without me. Enjoy the music. |
Agree with everything Ghosthouse said. The problem is bigger than government. It is us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTZR95os984 |
Frogman - I thought I understood your comment as applying to results of the last election. I might well have missed your actual point though (and that’s not to draw you out for elaboration!). Inna - I’ll be very interested if any of those suggestions work for you. Likewise, if you independently come up with some M.Orch. "surrogates" - please share. Somewhat apt comparison to Miles...well, at least (for me) some Miles. I don’t think JM can be afforded the same regard as MD, however...Miles was forging major new musical paths (as I only vaguely appreciate). JM’s legacy as an innovator is less significant, I think. Regardless, that’s not really the point of your comparison, though, and it is in fact a helpful one. FWIW - I can connect to Bitches Brew and In a Silent Way. Sketches of Spain, however, I just don’t get. Not sure I’ve ever been able to make myself listen to it all the way through. And Sketches pre-dates those other two by a good bit. Go figure. O - I half expected my post to be removed. Thanks for your tolerance. I’ve no wish to be the focus of conversation here. On to music. jafant - good reminder about SunRa. A name I know and might have heard a few tracks by him way back in ’73 or ’74. Have not listened to him in a LONG time. Might be something Inna likes. Will have to explore him. Didn’t he have something going called The Arkestra? |
Ghosthouse, it seems everyone is turning to you, including me. I'm glad the musical conversation is continuing without me. My thoughts are consumed with the realities of the middle class. Southerners think and vote with the rich, even when they're poor. Rok, talks about people on food stamps like their less than dirt, and how poor people are misusing his tax dollars, when that much is wasted everyday in Washington on defense somewhere. He doesn't even know about the "Black Budget"; "That's some kind of a conspiracy". When people who are in my economic class think like that, we are doomed forever. Enjoy the music. |
Ghosthouse, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I agree with your sentiments completely. And you are a better man than I for missing (overlooking?) the sarcasm in my comment that, while completely relevant to the subject of your sentiments, was directed at something else. Best that I leave my explanation at that. Regards. |
No problem on the link, Frogman. Hmmm...the same feeling for almost 4 years now? How about 8 years with unhappy prospects for a further 8 years to come (well 4 more, anyway). Ultimately, however, "There is no political solution to our troubled evolution." You can't build a brick house when all you have is wood. Necessary changes to society (in simplest terms: how people treat one another) can't be imposed from the outside. They'll only happen when the individuals making up that society undergo fundamental internal changes to their basic motivations. But as a society we're too sophisticated, intelligent and advanced to entertain the possible need for repentance and reconciliation with God. And then people keep wondering how come things ain't getting any better. Oh wait! Sure they're getting better...starting round about when Time Magazine asked "Is God Dead?". Yup, no mass shootings in schools, no drugs, less violence, improved living conditions in inner cities - safer, happier all around. Our progress is unmistakeable. God help us all given either major party outcome this November. That's it for me. So ends the sermon. Hoping the Landlord returns soon. On a happier note, thanks for the link, Inna. I watched that McLaughlin Hellborg performance. There is no doubt JM has amazing technical skills but, for me, as with Bill Frisell, I don't connect with the performance on an emotional level. I went back and gave another listen to Inner Mounting Flame (think I used to have this along with Birds of Fire). Had forgotten some of the names that were in M. Orch...McLaughlin of course but also Jan Hammer and Billy Cobham. Funny, I found Cobham's drumming along with Jerry Goodman's violin the things I liked best (and in that order). Hammer's keyboards next. McLauglin's guitar work last. Again, amazing technical virtuosity but where's the beauty? Not that I want shallow lyricism all the time but for me, JM err's too much to the other extreme. Please don't get me wrong. I am NOT trying to argue your enjoyment or appreciation of him is misguided or in any way wrong! OR that I am "right" and holding a "superior" position. Just trying to verbalize what's not working for me. Glad you enjoy his music so much. Well, gave you a bunch of things I've been listening to. Not all at the same repeat frequency - but these are definitely things I find interesting and enjoyable to varying degrees. Hoping at least one or two of them will click for you and provide something of what you heard with Mahavishnu. |
Ghosthouse, thank you, I'll check them all out. This is especially for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tjAljotRMk |
I know how you feel Alex, but when you're talking to people who don't think in terms of cause and effect, it's a waste of time; especially when they have computers that can research, and give them the facts. There is no way some people will let facts stand in the way of their illusions. I wouldn't care one iota, if I were not affected by their stupidity; but now more than ever, the middle class needs people who can think, we can not afford stupidity. Left, right, liberal, conservative; what does that have to do with a man getting a job and feeding his family? Or going out of business because of the economy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IplQqzPRXqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZyFKfPyi6Q Enjoy the music. |
Inna, glad you dropped in. This thread has my entire collection in the back pages. I can't think of any recent artists that have produced anything similar to Miles electronic bag, or Mahavishnu. If you can find anything current, that's close to what you're looking for, I can go from there. Here's something I stumbled across, not jazz but unusual. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJyzslBvLhI&index=2&list=PLSjtMA-3_CPxdoWhkkXNH-jjV8sGIzlK- Enjoy the music. |
Frogman - Thanks for those links (tho’ intended for inna). The Dave Douglas is new to me and based on a quick listen seems worth spending more time with. Just fyi... The intended link to Ben Monder’s The Distance, in fact opened to Craig Taborn’s Prismatica from his album, Junk Music. Prismatica ain’t working for me but I’m now curious about the Ben Monder so will look for it. Found Elysium by Monder on YouTube. From the album Hydra. Hmm. Dunno. Reminds me a bit of Laraaji’s Ambient3 Day of Radiance. Haven’t found The Distance yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMBNKmZgs_Y&ab_channel=AmbientLand |
@inna - I am not particularly enamored of John McLaughlin despite his technical prowess) - or Mahavishnu Orchestra, for that matter, so I offer the following suggestions realizing there might not be a happy confluence of taste in any of them (though just about all can be considered "progressive modern jazz", I think). In addition to Frogman’s recommendations, check out: Pat Martino - Joyous Lake John Scofield - Hand Jive (both the above suggested to me by Frogman, as I recall) Medeski Martin & Wood (End of the World Party, Friday Afternoon in the Universe, Juice, or Out Louder might be of interest). The Antisocial Club (Alan Pasqua et all) Andy Summers - Earth & Sky Nils Petter Molvaer (You are familiar with him but might not have heard these. On Spotify I have saved as albums: An American Compilation, Baboon Moon, and Streamer) Jaga Jazzist - One Armed Bandit; A Living Room Hush Meridian Arts Ensemble Arve Henricksen - Places of Worship Contermporary Noise Quintet - Unaffected Thought Flow (just be sure to listen past the first 40 seconds! or skip directly to track 2) Goran Kajfes - Headspin The Nels Cline Singers |
More modern, try these: Ben Monder "The Distance" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sdPCj7B-AFk Dave Douglas "The Infinite" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UjD3csSSijI Have not heard it but guitarist Terje Rypdal recorded an album titled "Vossabrygg" that is an homage to Bitches Brew that might be interesting. |
Mind if I stop by ? I was looking for some progressive modern jazz recommendations and found a kind of political/ideological discussion. The greatest force for good is the force that does least evil. Isn't it obvious ? Anyway, what would you recommend to listen to to someone who admires Bitches Brew by Miles and Mahavishnu Orchestra? Orpheus10 once suggested Niels Molvaer. I like him, the best performance I could find on youtube was called Live&direct. Besides Niels the drummer there is first class, the rest are good too. True modern jazz in my perception. |
Alex, one thing you are correct about, "critic thoughts about politics is not the best way to make friends"; as demonstrated by a tenor in your post that comes across as decidedly unfriendly. One doesn’t "choose" a perspective (at least I don’t); one’s perspective is borne out of one’s experiences and, hopefully, an honest interest in seeking truth? Moreover, my personal motivation (comfort) were I, in fact, "choosing" a perspective is something that I assure you would have no basis for judging from such a limited exchange as this. Perhaps it is the difficulty inherent in trying to discuss complicated issues within the limitations of a forum like this, but from my perspective you are not doing a very good job of understanding my perspective or I am not doing a very good job of explaining it; but you certainly seem to be very judgmental. I, likewise, ask that you do not take my comments "ad hominem". I believe that my perspective would be exactly the same had I not had the "Cuba experience". Why do I feel that way? In part roughly half the population of this country shares those feelings without having had the "Cuba experience". I ask you: what country do YOU feel is and has been a greater force for good ON BALANCE? Again, from my perspective, I see a kind of absolutism in your perspective that is consistent: while I acknowledge the "problems and mistakes" in and made by this country, you seem to suggest that this somehow automatically disqualifies this country from the title "greatest force for good"; just as, in the context of a discussion about entertainers’ behavior (and nothing more) you felt that the names Allen and Cosby could not be uttered in the same sentence. I would suggest that it is you who are "choosing" a perspective. I am intrigued by your comment about my "opposite perspective" of music. Opposite to what? Yours? If there is a parallel between our respective feelings about music and politics, it seems to me that our respective feelings about the two contradict each other. I welcome your thoughts about this. I consider you a very thoughtful person and have always acknowledged that. However, thoughtfulness does not always equal truth and, as you point out, being from different continents will color our respective perspectives; for all of us. |
This is my favorite tune by one of my favorite organists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNkag9AKgbA Enjoy the music. |
Austin feeding the poor. Austin is not only the political Capital of Texas, it is also the liberal do-gooder Capital of Texas. If there were no poor there, they would import them, so they could be seen on TV feeding them. Doing something meaningful for the working poor?? No way. That place is run by the rich elites, for the rich elites. If you give ANYTHING away for free, someone will show up to receive it. If you go to certain Walmart stores in Dallas, there will a line of men at the end of the check stations offering to charge your purchases on their cards. They charge your food purchases to their welfare card, and you give them the same amount in cash. Done right out in the open. The clerks go along with it. Has happened to me several times. Even happens in front of DPD officers. Was with a good friend once in Mississippi, in his car. He parked in a super market parking lot, waited a few minutes, a woman came out, walked over to the car, he gave her 60 dollars in cash, she gave him her welfare card. He went to buy more than 60 dollars worth of stuff at a store, and she went to get her nails done, I guess. Or get her fix. Had a baby with her. Your Federal and State tax dollars in action. I could go on and on but, we are back to music. I just can't let all that liberal clap trap go unchallenged. Cheers |
"Now we go back to the music." Exhibit A: Tony Williams Lifetime, "Wildlife"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq-jXfNzeIQ&ab_channel=ps Fusion like this might be the best of two worlds. Lovely loud. |
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