Jazz for aficionados
Rok, music soothes the savage beast, what does this do for you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpYIFGaO59g Enjoy the music. |
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I want to know whether or not the fact that jazz musicians are seen so much in foreign countries is a culture factor, or an economic one;***** It's an economic / business factor. The world is now one giant market. There are just as many Foreigners coming here to make money as are Americans going abroad. That old paradigm of the black Jazz musician going to Europe because there was no racism and the Europeans 'appreciated' Jazz more, was never true. Just a convergence of circumstances in the world. Some interesting facts: The new 2017 Ford Taurus has been on display in china for months. Designed for the Chinese market. No sign of it here yet. The new 2017 Buick LaCrosse was designed for the Chinese market and will be built in China. We get whatever the Chinese want now. Buick sells many, many more Cars in China, than the US. So foreign is almost becoming a meaningless term. You take your product to where the market for it is. The market for Jazz is all over the world, just a small market is every part of the world. On the other hand, the good folks of Stuttgart invited a Jazz singer to a classical outing. Maybe they needed something to draw a crowd also. People like the new and different. Cheers |
Thank you very much for your input Alex. From what I've been studying, the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer; that's a manufactured fact, not an opinion. Although we are all aware of the culture factor, now the economic factor is in play big time; it not only relates to jazz, it relates to everything else. I know exactly what you mean about clubs half full; this economic thing is world wide, here, the ghetto is third world. I saw those poor people in Cuba, and their teeth looked a lot better than teeth in the ghetto; not pushing anything Frogman, just relaying what I observed on the posts you submitted of poor people singing. Reality is not something you put a smiling face on, but look at it for what it is, and do what you can to change it, if it's ugly. Not trying to start a different conversation, just looking for some economic facts from honest people, minus propaganda. |
As a former bar and club owner, I can share my experiences, from European perspective. Went often, for years to places like Perugia, Italy ,http://www.umbriajazz.com , or to capitols like Berlin, London and many more. To The States as well, but I guess the Frogman can say more,he is at home there.On all these places I tryed not only to go to clubs, but also to speak with owners or menagers to understand better how the 'scene' looks from their perspective. I do not like to make general conclusions, because the attitude toward music is specific from town to town, or even from place to place,(the biggest and probbably the best jazz festival in europe is in Switzerland http://www.montreuxjazz.com ) but I think its pretty obvious that jazz music (as far for the number of people interested for it) is a very 'endangered species', for decades now. Reading just recently here, a post from a man from San Francisco (sorry, forgot his nick now), where he says that unless you do not have Diana Krall in a club, you cant hope for a bigger audience, says it all. The market has no mercy. In some places,in Europe, the jazz clubs and events are sponsored by the town or by the state, as a projects of culture. As for the prices, if someone is interested,I can say only that local 'stars'(that play music which could be used for torture chambers in Guantanamo) in my country charge for a one night gig in a club, between 6t usd up to 35t usd. House music 'D.J.' depending of their popularity would ask for even much, much more. Last couple of years we have a house festival in my home town https://youtu.be/qKH9DpPNCrM, with 'music', that needs no comment, but that has brought more touristic attention than all combined efforts of a whole country. Again, they are also sponsored from local and state officials. Would they do the same if it was jazz? Hardly, unless it could bring the crowd.So, to cut long story short, there is no culture without welthy sponsors and I guess the same is in the US, been to famous NYC jazz clubs that were half full on Friday night, despite the great artists playing there |
This is an open question to everyone, and try to leave your bias at home; I want to know whether or not the fact that jazz musicians are seen so much in foreign countries is a culture factor, or an economic one; are there more or less venues for them to entertain here in the states? While we all know about the culture factor; putting that aside, are there more, or fewer places for musicians to appear in the last 20 years? Enjoy the music. |
Miss Dee Dee just shows up everywhere, with everyone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGyqR4FQA0 Cheers |
Everyone posted fantastic music that I like a lot. Since I want to own anything I don't already own, it's for sure I'm going to go over whatever the music budget is. Fortunately, I own Nancy Wilson; I've worn out many records, thank God for CD of that album. I'll get back with individual comments on everyone's posts. I'm enjoying the music. |
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ98YTcX7OM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QBmrDS2Zhaw Class, style, and real Going to hear this great current singer in two weeks. This record still kills me every time I hear it. Amazing record; and she writes all her material. (Thanks again Acman3 and Newbee): This tune from the record is a tour de force, imo: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ5UmEf7fGc The title tune: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FO5yVP-BcM8 Beautiful acoustic guitar work: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj9NBEA4QVY |
There is hope yet! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXEHIYwqjcM I just pray she is not out of tune. Cheers |
FM - Here's a track from Jazz Pistols "live" with album cover so if you find other You Tube uploads with it you will be the money album-wise. I should be a DJ...what a great transition this makes from that Ralph Towner I just posted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdvnEu5QIdc&ab_channel=JazzPistols-Topic |
Ralph Towner's "Nimbus" from the album Solstice....as mysterious and wonderful sounding as it was decades ago when I first heard it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi-HBCcYeco&ab_channel=PedroSchmitz Frogman - re JP's "live' on You Tube, Lemme check. It might be something I found on Tidal or Spotify not thinking about availability via YT. |
Big ECM (and Towner) fan here too. In answer to your question re Mercy Mercy Mercy, yes the whole shebang was recorded in the studio: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLjbSbU4wcfuf2_Gx922HSrY2rqsRSIAce&v=W9mYN0Tkoik Btw, is Jazz Pistols Live on YouTube; don’t seem to be able to find it. |
Okay...listening to that Dave Liebman and liking it. I'm definitely a fan - more often than not - of things coming from ECM. I like early Jan Garbarek quite a bit. Have several pieces of his on vinyl. AND the elusive Ghosthouse-pleasing jazz guitar? Not sure why I didn't mention him sooner: RALHP TOWNER! My first intro to ECM was a record I borrowed from the public library. Din't know nothin' 'bout ECM or any of the players. That was "Solstice". Have been in love with it ever since AND with that moody atmospheric ECM sound. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solstice_(album) |
Ghosthouse, posted these a while back. Thought they might be up your alley...maybe: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=svDy-H0O90M If you like it check out his album "Loft Dance". Another tenor player with VERY strong contemporary jazz creds; both are Miles alumni: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bU7Hoe7uEOo |
My brother in law sent a couple links about Hammond organ including one that had a compilation of "great" Hammond organ solos (there are 3 parts)...he sent the 3rd. A lot from rock (e.g., Keith Emerson, Jon Lord) but some jazz interspersed as well. Jimmy Smith, obviously. BUT what caught my attention in Part 2 was a young woman playing back in 1972. "Moanin’", which should spark O’s interest, I’m guessing. Check it out. Wish I were as young, talented and as good looking ! :-) hahaha I’ll be curious to know if you have ever talked about her.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIB2ywz3S9o&ab_channel=tehtube ...and here she is again. Thirty years later and playing in a duo... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra4kYAYCdeI&ab_channel=hans1970 So you got "Krautrock"... I guess you can have "Krautjazz" too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf4tbCRuvSk&index=2&list=RDvf4tbCRuvSk&ab_channel=hans19... Huh. Frogman, so okay, the reviewer on Amazon might have known what he was talking about - at least for that Mercy Mercy Mercy track. I do NOT want to ignite another controversy but are you saying just the one track was done in front of a live studio audience, or the whole shebang. O - I do agree with you about the fusion "feel" of the 74 Miles and Dr. Honoris Causa from Cannonball plays Zawinul. |
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Frogman, that was downright insensitive***** Insensitive Hell!! That was downright Surly of him!! But, on second thought, if he had been guilty of Surliness conduct, surely it would have been pointed out to us. Wouldn't it? But an outburst like this is indicative of a more serious matter. It could be that The Frogman is cracking under the pressure. After all, he is our Goto guy, our Guru, our Oracle and is also the self appointed, Grand Poobah of Jazz. That could be just too much for one mortal to handle. You as OP, have the authority to lighten his load, by taking away some, or all of his titles. You should consider this. When an Oracle trashes a historic group like the Sweethearts, while at the same time, singing the praises of noise makers like 'The Jazz Pistols', well, we have a problem right here in River City. It's as if Mr Data had made a mathematical mistake. Just finished listening to the SACD version of LvB's 5th - Kleiber, on headphones. WOW!!! Had to get all that noise outta my system. Cheers |
O-10, we have been here so many times before that the recently used word "tedious" is just about perfect. Your most recent post is another example of what I can only describe as "The Twilight Zone". I will try, once again, to explain my positions on some of these isuues and, with any luck, perhaps they can be put to rest for a while; as I had hoped was the case before your most recent post. My comments to Strateahead were sincere and without any hidden meaning; just as I said to him re my original comment to you about why others don't post. You seem hell bent on believing that I am making some underhanded insinuation about this when, in fact, you just said the same thing I did. What is that? That perhaps he, as you just said, has some reason for not posting; perhaps he's too busy. That's it, no hidden meaning. As you apparently forgot, my original comment was in response to a self-congratulatory comment by you about what a special little bunch we are for being the only jazz fans on Agon; the only ones hip enough to be jazz "Aficionados". I had the temerity to suggest that "no, we are not the only ones, there are others who choose to not post for various reasons". Well, all hell broke loose! I thought I was being reasonable and generous, but apparently you felt that I burst your bubble. Don't you see how childish this is? My "insensitive" comments toward Rok: This one goes beyond The Twilight Zone into truly new frontiers. "Beam me up Scotty!". Let me see if I've got this right.... So, after Rok picks and starts a fight by denigrating my taste in music (not that I care what he thinks), and proceeds with his diatribe, you think I should have been more "diplomatic" towards him. Seriously? I assure you my reaction is not because I care what he thinks about my taste in music, but simply because I am tired, as many are, of his surliness; a surliness that you have always overlooked and protected. "Damn it, Jim, I'm a doctor, not an Aficionado!". O-10, I DON'T think you should go to school, and while I always hope for intelligent dialogue with other posters, I don't post what I post just for your sake. If you want to understand it and would like me to explain it fine; if not, no problem. What IS a problem for me is the misinformation passed as fact, I see no reason to not correct it. Case in point: I truly and honestly don't have a problem with you, or anyone else, using only subjective criteria when judging music. What leads to conflict is, as I have tried to explain many times, is that you and Rok have no problem whatsoever being critical of or dismissing, often in a very "insensitive" way, other posters' likes. However, when I express dislike of one of YOUR posted music clips and explain why I don't like it, all hell breaks loose. I have no problem with you feeling that there is, to quote you, "no right or wrong". However, this stance begs the questions: 1. why, then, do you feel it necessary to express dislike for anything?, and 2. why do you have a problem with my reasons for why I don't like something? If, as you claim, there is no right or wrong. I keep hoping you will see the contradiction (if not hipocracy) in this. The misinformation: The idea that knowledge is an impediment to understanding or feeling the emotion in music. Perhaps this is true for you or someone else. I suppose there are personality issues (foe ALL of us) that come into play here that are best left for others to dissect. Again, I have no issue with you, or anyone else, believing that....for himself; as unfortunate as I may feel that is. However, if you are going to escalate matters to suggest, as Rok did, that I, or someone else, cannot "feel" music because of their quest for knowledge, I will take you to task (if I happen to have the energy at that particular moment). That is an utterly ridiculous stance that goes counter to the vast majority of thoughtful opinions on the matter. Your recent analogy re audio reviewers make my point. Audio reviewers? Really? Gearheads, long vilified for not caring about the music? That they say that worrying about gear (the technical) gets in the way of the music is the proof behind your assertion? A MUSIC critic saying that may carry some weight....maybe. But, a good music critic would never say that. A good music critic knows that knowledge about the technical enhances the appreciation of the emotional. Bottom line, O-10, as I asked you recently, why don't you practice what you preach? I respect your wish to, as you yourself have said many times, not learn anything about music. Why do you object to someone else's wish to learn more than that? Anyway, over and out. I am done with this issue for now. Hopefully we can all get back to sharing music and ideas in a positive and respectful way. As someone who I hope is back soon (I mean that) likes to say: Cheers. |
Frogman, there is no way you would compare the "Sweethearts" to the bands at the top. Taking "all" things into consideration, I thought they were very good. I suggested, with no hidden meaning, that there were many jazz fans in Agon that, "for various reasons", chose not to post on this thread; that we were not the only jazz fans on this forum. Your moniker, and some of your posts on other threads, were the giveaway. Nice comments and I hope you visit again soon; plenty of "food and drink" left at this party. Strateahead apparently has a full schedule, and not enough free time to post often. I would also enjoy his posts more frequently, but I don't believe there is any problem with the thread that's preventing him from posting. Whatever the reasons jazz fans choose not to post on this thread, I say "Good riddance". We've been through that a number of times and got nowhere. Recent example: He will completely bash SRV to the extent that he feels he just KNOWS that BB King’s praise of SRV is bogus; yet, he will post clips (for God knows how many times) of a third rate swing big band "(Sweethearts"), or ridiculous scat singing, or, or. Truth is, he wants to be considered the "Oracle Of Texas". This has been going on for close to four years, but I still like him 😘. He’ll never admit it, but deep inside he knows better. Frogman, that was downright insensitive; if that's what you felt, you could have stated it in a more diplomatic tone. While your interest is the promotion and vitality of this thread; where has it gotten us? You seem to think I should go to school in order to learn what you're talking about? I'm spending time responding to this crap, when I should be enjoying good music. Enjoy the music. |
Ghosthouse, interesting Cannonball clip from his later period. Now THERE’s something one doesn’t hear too often, Cannonball on soprano saxophone. Btw, Mercy Mercy was not recorded in a nightclub; it was, in fact, recorded live in Capitol’s LA studio with a live audience. As the story goes, Cannonball was friends with the owner of "The Club" in Chicago and he wanted to give his friend’s club some free publicity; a pretty well documented "hoax". The giveaway? It sounds like a studio. You would never be able to get sound that good, clear and well balanced, especially the audience sounds, in a nightclub. |
That's a new one for me, although I can hear the kinship to 74 miles away. I'm not sure if I have Cannonball from 72; that has such a different sound, one that I haven't heard from him before. It most certainly sounds closely related to fusion, which was the thing at that time. The more I listen, the more I like it. Thanks for the tip I'll have to get it. Here's what I was listening to; it's from Donald Byrd and Pepper Adams "Out of This World". Let me know if I'm repeating, because this has been posted before, I just don't know if you're aware of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNk3qtzNM_s Enjoy the music. |
Hello O! That’s eggsackly the kind of stuff I like hearing about. So the speculation by that Amazon reviewer is wrong (i.e., it was done in studio before a live audience). At the same time, my estimation of the LP as a Capital Records "product" has gone up. Not only do they come up with a good theme (Zawinul compositions) but they get all but 3 tracks as live recordings. Best I can tell Mystified (Angel Face), One Man’s Dream & Ndo Lima are not live...at least, there’s no crowd noise or applause at the end of each. I think they did a pretty good job with how the tracks are sequenced too. It ends, just as it opened, with a longer track: Dr. Honoris Causa (dedicated to Herbie Hancock). The version here is not with Zawinul but George Duke on keys. Kind of a spacey mood like the opening 74 Miles Away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aFWMnTvgBk&ab_channel=200FZ |
Ghosthouse, they were all done live in various places, the banter is time significant; it's what people would have been chattering about at that time. If memory serves me right, there was a dance called the "Philly Dog", that was danced to the sound of "Mercy Mercy Mercy",and since they were in LA , somebody yelled out "Do the LA Dog" Enjoy the music. |
Frogman - The 3 jazz guitar albums you provided links to some days ago (Burrell, Hall, Montgomery) were not in vain. I just ordered the Wes Montgomery Incredible Jazz Guitar. That seems a special recording and based on what I read about it, others think so too. Found a brand new Riverside/Keepnews produced reissue from 2008. Hoping the sonics are good on it. It was that version or a ’91 original (CD) release...also Riverside with Orrin Keepnews the producer. Taking a gamble that his involvement in the later reissue will make it good. Degradation of master tapes a concern, of course. @alexatpos - Listened to several of your Burrrell links (a few more to go) and all the Zawinul/Ben Webster links. Until I heard that Cannonball Adderly stuff Orpheus posted, I didn’t know Zawinul could play like that...didn’t know about his classical music training. Ben Webster has a kind of distinctive sax sound, I think...pretty warm and a little ("loose"?) maybe. I can hear that Burrell is a good (great?) jazz guitarist but the style is so mellow...kind of a snooze for me. I’m not putting him down in any objective way. Just giving my reaction based on current taste. HOWEVER, that Bean Bags album with so many other players involved (including Tommy Flanagan) seems worth spending time with (and maybe buying). Thanks for it. |
Thanks, O. So it's a compilation album. That makes sense and explains why I wasn't seeing it listed in Adderly's discography. I did listen to all of it on Spotify. There is audience noise...some whooping and hollering on just about every track (well, now I'm second guessing myself about "every" track). I'm wondering if the originals were all done live or if the crowd noise was an effect added later by the studio in producing the compilation. Agree with your assessment...would be a good buy for me. |
I looked into it Ghosthouse, and it's exactly like I said it might be. No such album was ever recorded as "Cannonball plays Zawinul"; they simply selected cuts from other Cannonball albums, and gave them that name. It's a very good buy for a newcomer, but for me, it would mean purchasing what I already have on various other albums. Enjoy the music. |
****What I don’t get is this, how can anyone like Adderley and The Jazz Pistols at the same time.**** Bingo!!! We have a winner!! Problem is, the person who "doesn’t get it" considers that a positive thing and an asset instead of the limitation and narrow-mindedness that it is. Surliness is a common symptom of narrow-mindedness. |
Randy - Apologies in advance if you already know of them, but the Rudy Van Gelder reissues seem to be highly regarded. The couple I have or heard do seem to have excellent sound quality. The collection here might be a place to start. https://www.amazon.com/Prestige-Rudy-Van-Gelder-Remasters/dp/B00O50R6Q2/ref=oosr Thanks Alex. Zawinul is an interesting character. His playing on that Adderly 74 Miles Orpheus had posted and elsewhere on the Cannonball Plays Zawinul recording was surprising to me as all I knew was his work with Weather Report. I know he is well respected, but personally, after hearing what he was doing early on, I wonder about the "artistic merits" of his later funk dominated/electric piano signature style. Almost like he dumbed things down as his career progressed. I expect that'll get some howls from any Zawinul aficionados! :-) O - if you can find it, the Cannonball Plays Zawinul is a pretty strong collection. |
Ghosthouse (and others too), there are very much things written about Zawinul and Adderley, so I have choosen to post another sax player and album that was not mentioned, at least not recently, as I can recall. Ben Webster and Joe Zawinul 'Soulmates' from 1963. https://youtu.be/Tqbj4rFEOTw https://youtu.be/YqJi3kuxh5g https://youtu.be/iiSX0fsE-Pg |
That was a statement of fact that apply's to everyone, not just you. Many reviewers talk about how reviewing the equipment gets in the way of enjoying the music. "Subjective"; somehow you are misinterpreting that word; it simply means that when we look at the same thing, we see two different things; there is no right or wrong. "Stereotypical" I use that word a lot; meaning I've heard those licks before; Miles talks about that a lot. The "riffing hip phrases" he was hitting in the 50's, he can't stand to hear them anymore. So many jazz sax musicians have a tendency to do "Bird" like riffs that I've heard before. It's possible that things that sound new to you, are unoriginal to me, hence, that word. "Objective" has no room for any other opinion; that opinion is the right one and all others are invalid. Do you have such an opinion? Some jazz enthusiasts might consider the requirements of this thread to high for them; it's often necessary to express thoughts in writing, not everyone is qualified. plus as Rok stated, we got everyone who wants to post on this thread, ain't that enough. Ghosthouse, I was listening to "74 Miles Away" while writing this post, it sounds better all the time. Frogman, I enjoy your technical expertise even when I don't know what it means; but as long as Acman and Rok understand it, that's good enough for me. Enjoy the music. |
re Cannonball Plays Zawinul... An Amazon review and a link to the album liner notes: http://albumlinernotes.com/Cannonball_Plays_Zawinul.html 4.0 out of 5 stars adderley & zawinul = frantic fun By William J. James on February 20, 2005 Format: Audio CD Before there was WEATHER REPORT, Joe Zawinul made a significant contribution to jazz via his partnership with Cannonbal Adderly. Joe was the piano player in Adderly's band in the early 60's...a seemingly strange collaboration between a Southern born African American sax player and an Eastern European, classically trained pianist. But from the opening track, it works and it works to such a degree that this cd moves like a runaway train. There is, of course, Zawinul's hit MERCY, MERCY, MERCY which is atypical in the context of the other selections (but a great soulful, funky classic) but it is clear that Adderly recognized Zawinul's writing talent and gave him his due by playing his compositions exclusively on this recording. Adderly and Zawinul were on the cutting edge of jazz at the time this recording was made and their music stands not only as a foreshadow of what was to come but as a classic in its own right. The album SOUNDS like a live club date but the listener has to wonder if CAPITOL records once again made a studio recording with drinks and "friends" in attendance. It all just adds to the frantic fun these musicians appear to be having at this juncture of their celebrated careers. dr. Muse |
What I don't get is this, how can anyone like Adderley and The Jazz Pistols at the same time. Rok - I'm supposed to think you gave the Jazz Pistols a serious listen? And further, based on your past couple screens worth of diatribe, why would I even attempt to explain? Assuming I could! Kinda like asking me how I can like Chocolate ice cream and Pistachio. Ya get it or you don't. Here's a question for you... Why you gotta be so surly? It ain't like you don't have constructive things to offer but you always seem to wanna pick a fight. Later for that. |
'74 Miles Away'. Knew it sounded familiar. I have that CD. "The Best of Cannonball Adderley, The Capitol Years" What I don't get is this, how can anyone like Adderley and The Jazz Pistols at the same time. The Jazz Pistols, speaking of Tedious. What would we do without the OP keeping everyone on track? Cheers |
Hope you like it, Frogman. On a second listen today, sonics and playing are still great but song to song they aren't all of the same quality. Some work better than others. It's a pretty long recording...think they could have edited some stuff out (maybe). Hello O - So I am listening to this Cannonball Adderly "74 Miles Away" and liking it. Love live recordings where the crowd noise gives the music a bump in energy and excitement. Makes you feel like you are there. I found this track on Spotify but as part of an album called, "Cannonball Plays Zawinul" (the Cannonball Adderly Quintet, actually). It is Track 1. I assume you knew/know about this recording. Any comments? More fun hearing about it from you than looking it up on Wikipedia. Once again hearing some good piano on this. Need to find who else was playing in his quintet. |
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Can knowing and concentrating of the technical, spoil the effect of the music? Absolutely. When I was a kid, I loved nothing more than war movies or movies about the military. Never missed one. Then I grew up and was drafted into the US Army. I spent 30 years on active duty. Now I can't stand to sit through a war / military movie. I can't get into the plot or the acting because a so-called General Officer in the movie has hair like Elvis. Sgts talking trash to Officers. The courtroom scene in A FEW GOOD MEN. ALL BS. It don't work like that. i understand Hollywood has to make it interesting, but I just know too much about the Army to watch it. I never knew or noticed Ferrell was out of tune. I never would have guessed that a band with Wayne Shorter, Michel Petrucciani, and Stanley Clarke, would be just OK But apparently you did. Ruined it for you. Not for me. Cheers |
Well, THAT was a grounded and insightful response. As usual, Rok, you see what you want to see. I welcome disagreement supported by reason, logic; and, yes, a semblance of good taste. The "bs" is not the product of disagreement, it is the product of your abrasive, disrespectful style. No deluge, but I think the math makes the point. Moreover you conveniently overlook all those who haven't stuck around because you pissed them off. Just trying to help you, man 😊 |
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The issue of why there aren't more posters on this thread has come up recently and previously. It is not that there aren't more jazz fans out there; it is bs like this. ***** I keep hearing this from you. Over and over. I disappeared a while back, so all the people that I was keeping from posting, could feel free to post. I didn't notice a deluge. If you notice, I thought it may have been my fault, if in fact this was an issue at all. I noticed that you have never even considered that YOU might be the problem. Hmmmm. I am sure the mental health folks have a name for this condition. I think that we have the perfect number of posters. That number is however many WANT TO POST. There are many threads on this forum, and I only post on this one. I have not noticed anyone worried about getting me to post on their threads. People post where they desire to post. This is not a music forum. It's for gear heads. FYI, it's not the BS, as you call it. i.e. (anytime someone has the audacity to disagree with you). I think it's more likely, the type of music and conversation style discussion that we do here. In any event, I do not care one way or the other. People are always free to start their own thread. I promise I will not spoil their party by showing up. I will stay here, as long as the OP stays. Cheers |
Rok, possibly your best written post ever. Unfortunately, with some serious issues in the area of content. First of all, Rok, you are the one who has decided to apply the term "Oracle"; and sarcastically at that. So, please feel free to demote me to whatever other designation you please. I don’t want nor like titles; especially silly ones like that. No matter what you imagine to be or surmise are BB’s reasons for saying what he said about SRV, you have no way of knowing what is in his heart about him. I prefer to take him at his word and hence assume that this paragon of The Blues (BB) is, in fact, not a hypocrite and respects and believes enough in the art form to not be insincere with his accolades. The inconsistencies and contradictions in your stances about some of these issues are stark. You have posted those OK (and no more) clips of your idol Wynton Marsalis with Eric Clapton playing the blues more times than I can remember. Is Wynton, Oracle of all things jazz (to you), also a hypocrite? Certainly, there are in existence countless clips of Wynton’s band that don’t include Clapton. So, why? That the "Sweethearts" overcame many odds during their time is not the issue here; the quality of their music is. It’s pretty good. Compared to the bands at the top of the big band scene at the time, bands like Duke, Basie, Goodman, Shaw and others, they are decidedly derivative and third rate. The mentioned bands had ground breaking composers and influential soloists that would do much to shape the genre and, as soloists, shape the direction of jazz as a whole. Name one player or composer associated with "The Sweethearts" that you can say that about. The novelty appeal was a huge part of their success. They were pretty good and no more. Third rate. If it makes you feel better....second rate (not!). Conservative thinker that you are would consider merit only, no? This whole issue makes my case about personal bias influencing our (your) outlook on pet issues. Ferrell: Oh, I see, it was about PASSION. Sure thing. The ridiculous scatting didn’t count and was not part of this PASSION. Tasteless, over the top passion; I get it. And, oh yes, before I forget, very out of tune singing also, by the standards of great singers. C’mon, man, even the band in that clip is just ok. Just because a performer appears to be totally into the performace does not make it good. Facial contortions do not passion make. You like it, good for you; for me, fingernails on a chalkboard. Now, the bigger picture (of this thread), Rok: I hope this little and latest squabble served some purpose for you; you apparently seem to need this sort of thing periodically. Personally, eventhough I will stand up to your abrasiveness and bs when directed at me, I find it all terribly wasteful. I know that you will always be right (in your mind). I don’t really mind that as I have no vested interest in "being right". What I do think is important is a modicum of respect and self control re personal issues when posting and addressing other participants; especially when disagreeing. The issue of why there aren’t more posters on this thread has come up recently and previously. It is not that there aren’t more jazz fans out there; it is bs like this. Cheers to you too (what did you think of Cannonball’s "Stars Fell.."?) Edit: O-10, I just read your most recent post. As I am sure it is for you, my main interest is in the promotion and vitality of this thread about this great music. As countless times before, there are some basic flaws and inaccuracies in your statements. You insist in assuming that because someone can listen to music with the "technical" as part of the whole experience that the "emotional" is missed. That is complete and utter nonsense that serves only to buttress your choice to completely ignore technical considerations. You nor anyone else have a monopoly on appreciating the emotional aspects of music. As I wrote recently both things inform each other for an even deeper understanding. To suggest otherwise is simple defensiveness. I am not "forever" talking about the technical at all. I often do; but your aversion and close mindedness about it also shuts your mind to seeing how that is only a part of what I talk about. Moreover to suggest that you know how I "see" or hear music is simply arrogant and misguided. As I also said to Rok, as far as the bigger picture of this thread goes, I would encourage you to take a closer look at patterns over the life of this thread that point to when it is that there is more active participation from other members here in relation to the amount of silly bickering, clickishness, and judgmental comments like the ones you have just made; and, when it is that there is less participation and no new posters while the thread becomes not much more than a two way conversation between you and Rok. Just as with Rok, the inconsistencies and contradictions in your stance about some of this are stark. You rely on your "subjective" experience only, but are also quick to point out why someone else's feelings about an artist or performance may not be valid (example: "stereotypical"). So, in other words, only YOUR subjective opinion is valid, right? I see. I think we can do better than that. |
