Jazz for aficionados

Correction:

”obviously there is best anything in Jazz”, should read “obviously there is no best anything in Jazz”.....obviously.  

One doesn’t have to compare at all while listening and just enjoy the particular artist and/or context. On the other hand, ever wonder why some recordings just don’t push the right buttons for you? Why they just don’t have the right feel? The above is often one of the big reasons. Personally, I find it interesting to understand why. No artist is perfect and in many ways their imperfections and limitations are part of what makes them unique and interesting.

No one has picked Chico Hamilton. I can understand that, he's more of a "musician" than a drummer. He's also "West Coast"; ages ago he seemed a little odd to me as well, but his music was like an alternate universe compared to East Coast.

Many of the records I have by Chico can not be found on "you tube"; consequently, I can't share them with you, but I'll pick out what's on "you tube".

I'll begin with my favorite "Conquistadores", and work back to the albums I had in the beginning.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BJNxVf_iLM


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF_Kwdmg1Cg&list=RDSF_Kwdmg1Cg&index=1


This was his sound when I began collecting his records in 59, very "West Coast";


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IfB70c-DxQ

frog, this was a rare time where I see things differently than you do.  I certainly agree about drummers, or any musician for that manner, "fitting" in with a group style-wise.  But your "It is also an obvious generational thing." does not always hold up.  Miles was only six years younger than Brubeck so close enough to be of the same generation, yet as you say, Hancock was a great fit with what Miles was playing at that time while Brubeck would not have worked nearly as well.

Without doing an inventory, I think Miles pretty much continued to choose sidemen from the same age range even as he grew older.  Blakey did the same.  But they were more the exception to your suggestion for same generation, probably most other leaders followed that.

Now I'll stand back while others list more examples where leaders went outside their own generation. ;^) 

I’m glad that I’m the kind of aficionado that goes where the artist I’m listening to takes me; I never compare.

I guess that this comes naturally as the reaction on fro’s recent post. The movie maker and the movie watcher. I’d like to compare these two rather than a musician and the one who listens music.

Where the pure observer sees the magic and the story itself, prior to anything else, the movie maker sees the complexity of work; the technic of shooting, the angle of light, the cut between the frames and all kinds of other stuff...Presumably this can’t be shaked off one’s mind. It’s the curse in the blessing from the obvious reason. Captures everyone who tried making something (creating something small or big).
Once one has come to the other side where creators have been hiding and tasted the role of the maker, there is no way back. The magic of an observer shapes into the magic of a maker; one starts to examine, to compare, is grown to have bigger eyes (in movies) and bigger ears (in music). See what other can’t see, hears what other can’t hear. The curse in blessing how I see it.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I guess that above mentioned is the reason why fro drinks too much coffee.

pryso, as I wrote the word “generational” I knew that it might get me in trouble; and for the very reason that you reacted to.   You assumed that I referred to the musicians’ respective ages, when using the word “generational”.  In the context of the point being made it referred to the various and broader chronological pieces of THE MUSIC and it’s evolution.  IOW, musical generations.  We have no disagreement as your point is well taken.  

Having said that, Blakey’s music remained pretty much within a fairly narrow style and interpretation of “hard bop”.  As you have pointed out his band was a “school” as much as anything and was a great place for young players to get schooled IN THAT STYLE.  Miles, as you point out, was much more of a chameleon and the MUSICAL GENERATION that he was representing at any given time was reflected with his choice of players.   

mary_jo, I believe you make a common mistaken assumption. You assume that the “pure observer”. “sees the magic” before the “creator” does. Or that the creator always or automatically starts to analyze. Not the case at all. It is a deliberate choice. Moreover, the “creator”, or listener who is open to critical listening, can often see a kind, or level, of “magic” that the observer who, to use an expression used recently re a different topic, wears only “rose colored glasses” on his ears won’t ever see.

Knowledge is never a curse; when kept in its proper place. Example:

Rok said he will never be able to listen to the great “Giant Steps” the same way again since now he’ll be able to hear Flanagan stepping all over his piano solo. On the face of it, for some, that may seem like a curse. However, I guarantee you, that this little bit of awareness (knowledge) about that performance will open a window to more of the magic of the recording and of Coltrane in particular.

Today’s Listen:

Lee Morgan -- LEEWAY

With what can only be called an all-star group. If you have ever wondered if a tune can survive a Bass and a Drum solo, here’s your answer.

Notes:
"... refused to go in the Miles Davis - Art Farmer direction of essentially lyrical, understated, economical trumpet playing. Lee can be lyrical, but his musical temperament is basically in the exuberant, joyous, extroverted tradition of Dizzy Gillespie and Clifford Brown." Nat Hentoff

For which we can all be thankful.

Morgan was 21 at this time, so I guess he was still being introduced to the Jazz audience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIIlQ3Uf-aw

ever notice how whenever the word ’blues’ is in the title, it be mo better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FE6XcsUxos

Cheers

note the cigarette in his hand while playing.   yep, 21.

Fro, nope, I just assume that it sees differently. And nope, the creator does not see it automatically, since obviously a level of education is required. I referred not to the non-deliberate or deliberate choice, I just wanted to emphasize the difference between the picture they have in general. I did wrote that both do have magic but of different kind.

Knowledge is never a curse; when kept in its proper place.

The point is in "proper place" I agree and this can be interpreted in many ways. Obviously I wasn’t trying to say that knowledge by itself is a curse. Of course that it is not. But in the light of from what I am saying, it could be. I would NOT underestimate the power of rose glasses in art in particular, you know, ’cause that is what moves the fan (admirer). And having fan who is moved is what all is about, right?

Mr. Audiogon, I am truly grateful to you for giving me chance to edit my post within the 30 min. No need to prolong it, I am fully able to follow my stream of thoughts within the given deadline. :--)

frogman

Thanks for all your insightful posts this morning. You must have a few days off for the holidays (I don’t recall you ever posting this much material in such a short span of time).

Some reflections of mine.

Herbie Hancock was, and still is, a boundary stretcher who dove seamlessly, barely missing a step, into the world of electronic keyboards.
Chick Corea as well. Both of them started out in the "old school jazz" rooted in blues, as our OP likes to call jazz in the period from 1920 - 1965. I think it was the 65 - 75 period when a lot of jazz musicians started to stretch the boundary’s of "old school" into Avant Guard, Fusion, and whatever one considers the "correct terminology" for these relatively new genres.

Art Blakey was a bebop/hardbop drummer (much more of the latter) and would stay in his driving lane. I love the way he propels his bandmates in his "school of hard bop", which is the title of an Art Blakey book I read. I have over 50 Blakey discs both live and studio (almost his complete catalogue with him as a leader) and I love them all. The only time Art would change lanes were his African themed albums. Art was Art and that is what made him special to me. He had so much enthusiasm and energy and it rubbed off on all of his "students" of which all of them wrote the majority of his songs.

Tony Williams, a drummer you have mentioned in many of your posts, along with Billy Cobham, were the 2 drummers (that I can think of right now) who were able to change lanes in and out of genres seamlessly and both, as well as Blakey, should be in the drummer hall of fame if there was such a thing.

BTW, when Tony Williams was 17 years old he played his first studio gigs on the Blue Note label first with Herbie Hancock on his "My Point Of View" recording (19 March 63), and then with Kenny Dorham less then 2 weeks later (1 April) on the Uno Mas recording

By listening to these albums you can already hear Tony Williams unique style of playing which evolved rapidly. 17 years old!! SMH!!

With Herbie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ERBkTeTeQ4

With Kenny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dxoLesUB5M

Meanwhile...

After the Rain · Kenny Garrett
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chOmND_R8oA

Johnny Griffin - When We Were One
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ex0Ah7L0t0

~~
Johnny Griffin & Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis - Save your Love for Me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6rabp9V2vk

~~
Grant Green – Iron City
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXPMeJWxoBA

Mundell Lowe – Guitar Moods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHjHlxRY0Zk

Great links mary_jo all of them.

I have the Iron City disc.

I have the Garrett "Pursuance disc (I saw Garrett 3 times in NYC). We call him the "real Kenny G".

Grif and Lockjaw I have all of their collaborations on disc.

Mundell Lowe I have not one disc. I shall have to remedy that.

I am glad you like them pjw...and where do you keep all those discs? :--)

~ Intermezzo

Wearing red beret and black coat, I look like I have just returned from Paris. All day I say something like Laisse tomber…N’importe quoi…Allez, allez...but mostly Merci

https://youtu.be/hWLc0J52b2I

https://youtu.be/Xo1C6E7jbPw

https://youtu.be/Vz6r0TP4FBI

Yes, great links. That live Johnny Griffin Clip is wonderful.

Thanks for your thoughts and great clips, pjw. I agree with all you wrote. Hancock is a genius. I don’t think I have heard anything by him that I have not liked; acoustic or electronic.

And, thanks for your thoughts also, mary_jo. I must say that I got a very different sense of what you were trying to say from your first post on the subject. I appreciate what you are saying; I’m just not sure that such a strong distinction is justified nor accurate. And, I wouldn’t even call the “magic” (emotional reaction) necessarily that “different” in kind.

**** . I would NOT underestimate the power of rose glasses in art in particular, you know, ’cause that is what moves the fan (admirer). And having fan who is moved is what all is about, right? ****


I think we have different views here. I agree, the power of rose colored glasses is very real, but it’s not always a good thing, IMO. Sometimes, factors other than just the music influence a listener’s reaction to it. Having known a performer personally, or having heard a song that one associates with a memorable life experience, or even liking a particular instrument more than another influences the level of “magic” that one experiences from a performance. Very normal, but that is the rose colored glasses effect.

Most serious artists not only would prefer that their art NOT be viewed through rose colored glasses, they don’t feel that having fans is “what it is all about”. They would prefer to be true to their vision of the art and if fans want to come along for the ride that’s great. Of course, some are more compromising than others and all of them have to eat.

Per pjw’s comments re Herbie Hancock. Whatever one may think of electronic music, fusion, funk, whatever one wants to call it, when the playing is on such a high level it doesn’t much matter what one calls it. Purists will say that this record is not on the same level as some of his acoustic offerings. I disagree. In its way, this record is a masterpiece.

https://youtu.be/3m3qOD-hhrQ

Easier to do when your bank accounts are healthy for sure .The Twin Cities , per capita . have the most Forbes 500 executives of
any American City .Hence , a lot of uber rich bi-wigs on the Minnesota Orchestra Board .
They shut the Orchestra down for 2 years because they felt 90K per year is too much to pay a musician .

.

Conversation with Andrei Tarkovski, movie director.

Funny, you can hear some exact same words as Frogman says (about film/music not beeing created in vacuum and about influences of one artist on another) or about finding his personal expression

If you have time,very  interesting to hear, a great artist perspective...starts around 3rd.min...)

https://youtu.be/4JRfeshEboI

Regarding H.H.maybe its master piece....but in a specific genre? What truly defines something as master piece? Time?

frogman

Big Kenny Dorham (the uncrowned champion as Art Blakey called him) fan as I am I would like your opinion on how Tommy Flanagan handled himself on the following song. I know its nowhere near as complicated as Coltrane's Giant Steps but it has a few challenges.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUz-6CZXWO4

I agree with frogman on Herbie Hancock .
He is the ONLY player I will listen to on anything in any genre .
He is music itself or as close as is humanly possible .

Update

I just pulled the Art Blakey book from my library. The title is "Hard Bop Academy - The Sidemen Of Art Blakey And The Jazz Messengers"

I highly recommend 

pjw, I think Tommy Flanagan was a great player and I love his playing. There is a certain elegance to his playing and a relaxed time feel. Even the tone he gets has an elegant quality to it; not very percussive.

https://youtu.be/ONpG6dtiqzE

I really enjoyed that Kenny Dorham clip. Had not heard that before. Thanks!

My take on Flanagan on that recording is that he sounds very good. He’s a great player and he sounds particularly good on the introduction with its loose feel. He seems comfortable with the tune and its comfortable harmonic progression. He sounds a little subdued in attitude compared to Al Heath’s fiery playing and Henderson’s amazing solo. I found it very interesting how the vibe of the tune changed dramatically at the point that he soloed. They dropped the intensity pretty dramatically. Almost as if the band was accommodating him and the way he likes to play. Nice contrast even if at times I wished he were a little more rhythmic and incisive with his comping behind the soloists.

Here he is as sideman with Thad Jones, one of my very favorite Jazz composers and great trumpet player, on a favorite record. IMO, this is the kind of music and setting that Flanagan sounds best in; relaxed and swinging. Check out Billy Mitchell’s tenor on this. Talk about underrated players! Also, one of Schubert’s favorite drummers and the great Kenny Burrell.

https://youtu.be/dKQaV22GZhg

It should be noted that 23 years after recording Giant Steps with Coltrane and being caught off guard by the complexity of the tune, he recorded the tune on one of his solo records, It is obvious that he worked on the tune over the years. I like his rendition and he navigates the brutally difficult harmonic changes very well, but still without the fire that Coltrane brought to the tune.

https://youtu.be/wkXerGtKtKM

frogman

Both of your links are greatly appreciated and I will be looking to buy both recordings.

There is a comment about Thad Jones and why he did not record more with a small ensemble. I do have "The Magnificent Thad Jones" and its a favorite of mine. I was not aware of the album you posted but it will be in my collection soon.

And, thanks for your thoughts also, mary_jo. I must say that I got a very different sense of what you were trying to say from your first post on the subject. I appreciate what you are saying; I’m just not sure that such a strong distinction is justified nor accurate. And, I wouldn’t even call the “magic” (emotional reaction) necessarily that “different” in kind.

Thank you for reply, in regards to who tried to say what, same here.
And of course that there is no such strong distinction anywhere, that’s too obvious to even pay attention to. But yes, I would call it different. Again, not necessarily too opposite but definitely is different. If you, as the musician from very young age, have been "inside" of the world of the creators, could it be that you are not "quite familiar" (no to take this literally of course) with the perspective of the one who has been raised "outside"? It could also be the matter of the perspective that two of us have it.

I think we have different views here. I agree, the power of rose colored glasses is very real, but it’s not always a good thing, IMO. Sometimes, factors other than just the music influence a listener’s reaction to it. Having known a performer personally, or having heard a song that one associates with a memorable life experience, or even liking a particular instrument more than another influences the level of “magic” that one experiences from a performance. Very normal, but that is the rose colored glasses effect.

Is it good or not, I do not think that the creator is responsible of what one should do with his/her glasses. He should be responsible until some point (in regards what he presents and promotes) but is surely not responsible of how one sees his creation. And yes, factors other than just the music do influence on a listener’s reaction but again, that’s the "problem" of the listener, not the creator.

Most serious artists not only would prefer that their art NOT be viewed through rose colored glasses, they don’t feel that having fans is “what it is all about”. They would prefer to be true to their vision of the art and if fans want to come along for the ride that’s great. Of course, some are more compromising than others and all of them have to eat.

I think we are lost here. I deliberately emphasized that I wanted to talk about movies, rather than about musicians. There is the difference. A movie itself is more detached from a movie creator himself (out of the simple fact that much more people are involved in a movie) than a piece from player. Listeners tend to bond more with a musician than a movie watcher bonds with a movie director (they get attached more to an actor). Generally speaking of course. Exceptions do live. :-)

Most serious artists not only would prefer that their art NOT be viewed through rose colored glasses, they don’t feel that having fans is “what it is all about”. They would prefer to be true to their vision of the art and if fans want to come along for the ride that’s great. Of course, some are more compromising than others and all of them have to eat.

Since I understood what you were saying to me in the previous lines, this comes in a more clear way towards me and is perfectly understandable. But again, I wanted to say - art is the way of "selling the magic" and at the end, it’s all about the magic. The more magic one creates, the better. Now, what one considers to be the definition of the magic for him or her, that’s another pair of the shoes.

I wrote a lot, pjw will now tell me that I probably have my day off, having so much time to do this. Nope, I do not have it, I have just put my work on the hold.:-)

Alex, I would like to thank you for that Tarkovsky clip.

Why thank me? You obviously did not watched it, or at least you did not before you wrote your last post,ha,ha....

Paul, I posted this one long time ago...

'After hours' Thad Jones(with wess, burrell, waldron,. chambers, taylor)
https://youtu.be/NwbSgfq3oQg

What that "why thank me" was for? It was a simple thank for provided link. I will watch it afterwards. I wrote the last post from my own point of view on which I have right to. Or should I simply just quote Tarkovsky what, let’s say, you would do? :p

No, you should not quote him, or anyone else, for that matter, you should of course write your own experiences...about personal expressions thru making movies....looking forward to read all about it....(smile)


https://youtu.be/siQ3vEWSYkM

Good afternoon alex and mary_jo

Nice to see you two Croatian's are having a go at it. 

I have had a lot of bad experiences in my life and this is not the place for me to post songs that remind me of them and make me emotional. Just saying I understand MJ.

But that is what I did, wrote from my own little experience. I mean, you already saw the videos that I partly made (referring here to the work behind scene). It might not be big deal but software that is normally used in today’s movie making is used there. A lot of hard and interesting work.

Are you maybe jealous? Thinking who is she to talk like that? Smile. Well nobody prevents you from learning the material on-line. Some fine software is there and available for free. Good cameras are also within the reach unlike before. All in all you need quite modest budget to record short clips for instance. But you will need a will to do it, imagination and time of course...and I think I know what you will say now (I hear you) - if I can’t do the work like the great one does, better not to do it. But I disagree with you here. No matter what, you have to dare. That’s the first condition. Make your own shi*, damn it. And be proud of it. ’Cause it’s YOURS.

Remember the song? Of course you do...
https://youtu.be/uAOR6ib95kQ

Good afternoon to you too pjw. Well, do not mind about two of us, this is actually our usual kind of conversion but other than that, we get along just fine.:--))

Mary-Jo, in the case of that statement: I’m glad that I’m the kind of aficionado that goes where the artist I’m listening to takes me; I never compare. you interpreted as it was intended to be interpreted, and you could not have rephrased it better.

In regard to "rose colored glasses" or "rose colored ears"; they are my eyes and ears, whether anyone else thinks they are rose colored is 100% moot; that's the blessing of being an individual. My perception of the world, is uniquely mine, this is a birth given right that I shall retain until my last breath.

I like what you wrote O-10. Thank you.

AllMusic reviewer says "no magic".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hKFkCtiFZs&list=OLAK5uy_nHTPlcrQI6cfzDfNDupRRQsfnfw2oot3g

"Third Plane", I haven't given it a good listen, but in general I like it.

I noticed it was recorded in 1977, that could explain why I like it in general without giving it a good listen. There seems to be some kind of "cut off" date where in general, I don't like the music; that's something I'm trying to discover for myself.

The "no magic " comment probably has to do with expectations for the record, with three greats on it. I have it on vinyl and liked it, but haven't played it in years. Maybe, "no magic". Good is not great.

Music is different from any other art  because they are a reflection of something else and Music is the thing itself .
Every human being is born with the greatest instrument of all, the human
voice .
I believe our creator created music because without it this in vale of tears
we could not carry our load . I know I could not .

Agree with you Schubert!

https://youtu.be/GmrYDfenj7M?t=3
Great long clip of Duke Jordan with other greats . Just great straight ahead jazz !
Got my copy coming from Amazon , along with the Thad Jones "Detroit
New York  Junction ", which was new to me .
AND, by chance  a new LP I have wanted for a long time , Horace Silvers "Cape Verdean Blues "

Thank you Jesus !

mary_jo, we seem to be going round in circles to a degree. Too much is being made of the distinction between being “inside” and “outside” the world of the creators. We are all creators in one fashion or another. Obviously, not all are creators in the same endeavor, but creators nonetheless and many of the same principles apply to all. Yes, you did state that your comment had to do with film creators, but it was in response to the topic of music creators. Again, many of the same same basic principles apply; Schubert’s excellent point not withstanding.

I have known “non-creators” who were as musically astute and insightful of the process of creation as many creators themselves. That is not where the distinction should me made. I think the problem when trying to discuss these things goes to something I tried to describe early in the thread. Let’s first back up for a moment to what the main point of all this is (was); the backdrop. This discussion began around the issue of whether or not there is a “best” in Jazz. I will use some of your terminology:

There is a very normal tendency on the part of those “outside” the world of the (music) “creators” to over romanticize the process of “creating”; just as there is a tendency to over romanticize our involvement as consumers of the creations (aficionados). The rose colored glasses effect. All very common and normal. We build affinities and preferences for certain artists and styles of music, in part, for reasons that have little to do with the ultimate value of the music itself. This leads to all sorts of dichotomies and contradictions when discussing the topic. The contradictions may fit our own personal “emotional agenda”, but they are contradictions nonetheless. The perfect example of this contradiction is to claim that we don’t compare artists. Yet, the term “best” is used freely. It sounds good to claim no comparison, romantic; and, sure, we can suspend direct comparison while actually listening to the music, but to have a “best” or even a “favorite” means, almost by definition, that we are comparing.

Still, some want to keep the feelings about the creations “above the fray” of any kind of judgment as if there were something wrong with judging and establishing personal boundaries for what we like or don’t like. Nothing wrong with that as long as we can honestly say that we keep an open mind to the reasons why we may be reacting the way we are; some of which are simply our own biases and nothing more and no reflection of the ultimate value of the creation.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. Enough philosophizing about all this.

Happy New Year!

I agree fro. Thank you for your thoughts and Happy New Year too.

Today's Listen:

Lee Morgan  --  THE GIGOLO
with / Wayne Shorter, Harold Mabern Jr, Bob Cranshaw, Billy Higgins

Notes: "This set is a solid addition to the body of Lee Morgan's work--the product of a craftsman who goes beyond craft to discovery."  Nat Hentoff
The rest is 'nuts and bolts' stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg9uf84hzfg   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyoRLXBYi00  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejxGcL0M46U  

Cheers

During the time while I visited a place of higher learning, each student was to create what they considered a work of art. Mine was a music and visual display that involved lights that came on depending on the frequency of the music. The only difference between my display and a graphic equalizer is that the lights were in an abstract design.

Bear in mind that each individual in this class had created some kind of work of art that we would all judge. After looking at each individuals project, we came to the conclusion that each project had acquired a life of it’s own that was independent of it’s creator.

When my project was viewed and judged, it was perceived in ways that I never imagined when I created it. As the discussions went on, no one was more astounded than the creator of each art object how many different ways their object was perceived; it was like each object took on a different life that went beyond the creator, and so it is with "modern jazz".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_YDnuHs8P0

Killer Lee Morgan!  Thanks for the reboot.

alex 

Thanks for the Thad Jones link it almost slipped by me. I already ordered the album as well as this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh6p8Y14gyM

acman3

 Is "Third Plane" the only recording from the Miles Davis rythm section 1965 -68? I listened to a few of the tunes. Nothing struck me as "special"

The Cedar Walton Trio recorded live in Bologna. Sala Europa in the mid 80's and released on 3 volumes is, IMHO, a very special trio recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2pUAdHP8OA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tknpudwxRQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PKHoLx8DvA

I recently invested in all 3 volumes and pleased to say I am very happy with them all. Not a bad song on any of them. Billy Higgins is fantastic and Cedar and bassist David Williams deliver excellent performances as well.