Jazz for aficionados

//I don’t think we’re allowed to dislike anything in this thread. I like Zappa. //

I think it’s more the matter of respect and acknowledgement that is required or let’s just say, desirable. If this is shown in a proper way, disliking is bearable.

Stanley don’t need no stinkin’ producer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFnfkLtFgSA

Cheers

Bird Lives!!

We used to call this the 'hucklebuck'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNtmkfeJk4  


Dizzy on piano.   One guy didn't show, one couldn't play, so Dizzy on piano.  He had the good sense to not try to do too much.
19 year old Miles on trumpet
Seems to always be drama with Bird's recording sessions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4mRaEzwTYo 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1bWqViY5F4   

Cheers

Stanley Turrentine "Impressions" 3rd song on the "Cherry" album. One of the few albums Creed Taylor got right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYeEuC9iDAM


And one of my favorite Turrentine songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJ2VuKb1fQ

Welcome hce1

I bought the 16 disc limited edition boxset from The Art Ensemble of Chicago last year. I think its great.

James "Blood" Ulmer is awesome!

Gary Bartz is great as well. I met him backstage at a Lou Donaldson show about 5 years ago. Great person as well.

Charles Lloyd is very "cerebral" music at times and depending on the album but I think he is a first class sax player and composer/arranger.

Check out this James Carter cut with James "Blood" Ulmer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOnv71uS0q8

I’ve read with interest over the past several weeks the previous posts in this thread. I’m aware of some of the controversies and have found the discussions of them illuminating and helpful. But, I cannot claim to have anything like the depth of understanding of some of the definitional  issues you have discussed. And, I confess that my interest in them is principally intellectual. I don’t find them especially useful in my understanding or enjoyment of the music.

I’m afraid I’m something of a Neanderthal where classification of music is concerned. My LPs and digital files are cataloged according to a simple five group typology: rock ‘n’ roll/pop, jazz, blues, classical, International folk. I have difficulty sometimes determining to which of those five categories specific recordings belong, let alone trying to parse some of the issues you’ve taught me about in this forum. So, please accept my apologies for trespassing across boundaries some of you think important for defining jazz. My intention is not to offend or raise controversy, but merely to call attention to some recordings I regard as jazz essentials in the hope others among will find new loves. 

To begin, I love many of the artists that receive regular praise in the preceding posts: Miles, Monk and Mingus; Ellington; Coltrane; Grant Green, Lee Morgan; Horace Silver; etc.

Here are some “jazz”favorites I feel deserve more fans:

Gary Bartz Ntu Troop, Juju Street Songs
Randy Westin, Little Niles
James Blood Ulmer, Freelancin’
Tiger Trio, Unleashed
Tim Berne’s Snake Oil 
Art Ensemble of Chicago, A Jackson in Your House

Listening now to Charles Lloyd and the Marvels w/Lucinda Williams, Vanished Gardens.

rok,

That is a couple of great songs off of a great album!


I will be adding that one to my Cannonball collection for sure

mayor,

Definitely check out "Up At Mintons" By Turrentine. Grant Green is outstanding on guitar throughout. Here is a couple off the album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDonxQFq4Wc&list=PL0q2VleZJVEkbfxJPz_ZDfXTBoyfxOgnO

Today’s Listen:

Cannonball Adderley -- AT THE LIGHTHOUSE

I like the way he introduces his tunes. Victor Feldman on piano. Pre-Zawinul??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N45hYXNu12o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FGAJSHMSek

Cheers

btw, one of the coolest album covers in Jazz.

The Blue Hour sessions are fantastic! Sugar, is a bit cheesy for me. Not bad, just not my taste. I think the massive reverb isn’t helping for me. Still, the solos, especially Hubbard, lack directionality to me. He seems aimless. His early solos were cohesive musical thoughts, told as a story. His later solos on tracks like Sugar, seem disjoint, throwing together some generic licks with some overused extended technique like shakes and alternate fingerings. The guitar solo on this track, however, is astonishingly good. 

mayor, 

There are a few of us who regularly post on this thread who like Zappa as well. I just wanted the opinion of orpheus10 because some of his jazz "likes" that he has posted cross over into other genres besides jazz.


Did you listen to the Stanley Turrentine "Cherry" and "Sugar" songs I posted. If so what are your thoughts? If you don't like them check the Blue Note recording sessions by Turrentine. There are some gems to be found.

I don’t think we’re allowed to dislike anything in this thread. I like Zappa. Lots of examples of jazzy rockers. I’ve always loved shows by some bands that end up being jazz concerts, and the audience doesn’t know. Great example is Dave Matthews Band. I also saw an early show of Maroon 5 where Adam Levine was even scatting. 

orpheus10 I don't know if you like Frank Zappa or not but if you have the time listen to this 16:55 version of "The Gumbo Variations". This particular song, as well as many other Zappa songs, are borderline "jazzy" music. Frank loved jazz and often times had a 12 piece brass section on recordings and in live concerts. Just want to know your honest opinion on it. If you dislike it I'll understand - Zappa is not for everyone. Sometimes it can be overly "cerebral" This song, however is not

And look at the first comment on You Tube and I quote:

"like Coltrane, from a different planet"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CyIj96Rpwc

Jazz projects universal emotions as complex as physics and deeper than the Pacific; no wonder it's not for everyone, just for those with the ability to hear with the inner ear.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj1j4mN7OT0


This musical combination defies description; it's a mixture of music from far away places with strange sounding names that existed at the beginning of time. This was conceived by one of the original creators of modern jazz.

There are those who are tuned to this frequency, and there are those who are on a different wavelength.

Stanley Turrentine's "Sugar" live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmTGxdNTxIo

And "Cherry"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHGrCCYIkck

orpheus10 thanks for the Mingus moanin'

Very intense!

mary jo thanks for the elevator joke : ) 

frogman I agree with your assessment  of Creed Taylor's (CTI) overly produced/engineered and tinkered with recording methods.

While "Salt Song", in which I have listened to a few tracks now, is not something I would add to my collection I do not regard it as elevator music either. That term should be reserved for the likes of Kenny G and other "smooth jazz" artists.

The Turrentine albums "Sugar" and "Cherry" were also produced and engineered by Creed Taylor (CTI) and both of those are in my collection. "sugar", IMHO, is a masterpiece at 5 stars while "Cherry", although not as good as "Sugar" I still consider it a very good album and I would give it 4 stars.

This Bud is for you Mary-jo;


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY

Thank you Mary-Jo; that means that so far I'm hitting 100%, now I know who to use for my reverse barometer.



The Allmusic review by Steve Huey awarded the album 4 stars and states "it's another fine, eclectic outing that falls squarely into the signature CTI fusion sound: smooth but not slick, accessible but not simplistic... All in all, Salt Song has dated well, partly because the arrangements don't overemphasize electric piano, but mostly on the strength of Turrentine's always-soulful playing".

"Two men in an elevator.

One says to the other, sniffing: Excuse me, did you pass wind?

The other answers, sounding hurt and offended: Of course I did! Do you think I always stink like this?"

I wonder how they call an elevator when it's going down? Downator? 

Attention! Elevator is coming down! Anybody going on the tenth floor?

//mary jo Frank Zappa is not for everyone. Mingus' music, as well as Zappa's also requires an "acquired taste" I'm happy you like Gene Ammons' "Angel Eyes" Beautiful song and album.//

pjw, I am glad that I do not have that acquired taste. My current limitations suit me just fine. ;-)
His music just does not have a sense to me. He can't lure me in, instead I manage to stay out just watching what he does, not participating. However, to Mingus I am giving a chance. Because it's jazz. 

Orpheus' taste in jazz is in many seen ways (if I am not mistaken?) is similar to Alex's so naturally, O-10 I like many of your postings. But that Stanley Turrentine Salt Song is not my cup of tea either. Can't say it's elevator music, but if there weren't some solos that I found extremely good, or religious themes that do not fit just anywhere, I would call it dinner jazz. However, this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkO7LrZIhQM I find fantastic.

While there are a number of other "world class" musicians, Acman and Frogman only hear Stanley Turrentine, and Mr. Mayor hears elevator music.

All of that puts me in another musical universe, and I like it.

Funny, I’ve been around musicians of just about every persuasion for about fifty years and I have never met any “elevator musicians”....no room for the drums 😊.

I won’t comment on someone else’s characterization of a music. It’s not my characterization and it’s all too loaded. Instead, I will take a stab at characterizing, by way of description, how many of CTI’s recordings, including Salt Song, were made. This is significant because the method used results in some of the qualities that I hear in the music and which are the reason that I am very mixed (pun) about that kind of musical aesthetic:

Stanley and rhythm section arrive at the studio. The drums are not in an elevator 😊, but are in a soundproof booth separate from the other rhythm section players. Chances are that the bass, piano and guitar (maybe) are in the main room. Stanley may also be in a separate soundproof room. There is very little physical connection between the players. They listen to each other via the sound fed to each of their cans (headphones) by the recording engineer after that sound is EQ’ed and balanced per the producer’s (Creed Taylor’s) tastes and musical vision; not the ambient sound in the room. The balance and EQ settings have to be altered as the sessions progress since different rhythm section players are used on different tunes. After a quick run through, or two, of each tune (remember, they are not a working band), they do a take; or two, or three. Taylor decides which take is the best, but he thinks that the piano (or, whatever) solo could be better. He brings Richard Tee back in to overdub a new solo over the previously recorded rhythm track. Then, Airto is brought back in to add and overdub more percussion “toys” to his previously recorded percussion track. The layers of sweetening start being added.

Later that evening the string section arrives and they all are situated in the same room with the possible exception of the added acoustic bass. They don their cans and, conducted by Deodato, they overdub their parts over the rhythm section and solo saxophone (maybe) parts recorded earlier that day. Parts in a string arrangement that was farmed out to an orchestrator that will never set foot in that studio and may or may not get credit for the arrangement; depending on how big the name was (Quincy would get credit). It’s very possible that they will play to a mechanical “click track” that is heard superimposed over the music track. If the woodwinds were not recorded at the same time as the strings, they may play and overdub their parts after the strings are finished.

That night, while thinking about the work produced that day, Taylor decides that a little vocals sweetening is just what two of the tunes need. Makes some calls and the vocals are recorded the following day. He had also decided that on one of the tunes the tenor solo should follow the guitar solo, not the other way around. So....you guessed it, Stanley and Eric Gale overdub new solos the following day over the previously recorded tracks. Result? Good solos, but the give and take and musical interaction that happens when all the musicians play together is not there to the same degree. But, at least the order of solos is the way the producer wants it.

During playback for final mix down later that week Taylor notices that the violins are not perfectly in tune with Richard Tee’s piano. What to do? Can’t bring all those string players back in; too expensive. No problem, just add a healthy dose of reverb to the string track...fixes everything. Hides the problem and is just a little more still of the distinctive reverb heavy CTI sound.

While not my favorite work by Turrentine by a long shot, still pleasantly funky and fun listening if not particularly inspired. Then, there’s that tenor sound!

My current obsession, btw, is Renaud Garcia-Fons Trio. In particular Arcoluz. 

I mean, David Benoit is literally the sound of the weather channel. But something has to be elevator music, right? We can’t just stand there awkwardly in silence. It’s important we have music that’s so inoffensive while also not evoking any sort of emotion to take some of the awkwardness away. Except in Vegas, where it should only be Dean Martin on every elevator. 

After all of this, I just know Mr. Mayor is going to post something that will blow the roof off the house; the floor is yours Mr. Mayor.

If these musicians sound like elevator musicians, I'm glad I don't listen to music with everyone else you know.




Stanley Turrentine - tenor saxophone
Eumir Deodato - electric piano, arranger, conductor
Ron Carter - bass
Airto Moreira - drums, percussion
Horace Parlan, Richard Tee - piano, electric piano, organ (tracks 1-5)
Eric Gale - electric guitar (tracks 1-5)
Billy Cobham - drums (tracks 1-5)
Julius Brand, Paul Gershman, Julius Held, Leo Kahn, Harry Katzman, Joe Malin - violin (tracks 2-5)
Harold Coletta - viola (tracks 2-5)
Charles McCracken, Alan Shulman - cello (tracks 2-5)
Hubert Laws, George Marge, Romeo Penque, Jerome Richardson - flute (track 6)
Sivuca - guitar (track 6)
Russell George - bass (track 6)
Joao Palma, Dom Um Romão - drums, percussion (track 6)
Margaret Branch, Brenda Bryant, Patsy Smith - vocals (tracks 2 & 5)

Not to me, but it would to everyone else I know. It is also not one of my favorites of Mr. T.

I had the opportunity to play with David Benoit recently (I happen to also play music professionally), so I know some good elevator music. ;) doesnt mean it’s bad. 

Acman, we are talking about two different albums. My question was, "Does Salt Song sound like no more than good elevator music"?


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4rJqEpKFVE&t=335s

Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (now 60 years old).

Always just comes down to personal taste I guess.

Just change the record and listen to something else you like. All Good.

Not a bad recording. Sound is not over sweet like normal CTI. It is 1973 and Herbie is playing electric, but pretty good. Also, Dejohnette is his normal awesome.

https://www.allmusic.com/album/in-concert-vols-1-2-mw0000649573

Frogman, what do you think of "Salt Song"? Would you call that album "Good elevator music"?

Wow, you all are harsh. Sorry I don’t like a particular album. I bought the album because of the lineup. I found the music (The tracks I listened to) to not really come together. Like they weren’t playing as a group but more as a bunch of individuals. The solos seemed uninspired. Afterward turned on Hubbard’s incredible Open Sesame (45rpm) and Herbie’s Head Hunters. Then finished off the evening with Legrand Jazz.  

Talkin about it let's give everybody a chance to listen to it. Stanley Turrentine Freddie Hubbard live in concert CTI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXRS6Xptlaw

Mayoradamwest, if you don’t know these records check them out for good examples of Turrentine’s best work.  I am not a huge fan of Turrentine’s CTI output either; or, most from CTI for that matter.  I do mostly enjoy CTI Turrentine since that fabulous tenor sound and soulfulness are hard to dislike.  Most CTI’s lean toward a very produced (often overproduced) aesthetic with a whole lot of studio “sweetening”.  Btw, welcome to the thread:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwdLMzVSwXAgMDgmYxf053GeFX1sQQMk_

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_npHnsC2n7NTyB-WkVSmLz4ek6XkH_6YdM

For decades, one of my favorite "unknown" recordings has been Yusef Lateef's "Live at Pep's."  Lateef (like many) doesn't get the credit he deserves as a jazz legend.

Just finished listening and wanted to share.

This particular recording aside, I've admired Lateef since I was a young buck.  An amazing musician who explored the globe in order to immerse himself in vastly different musical cultures, then infuse them into his native jazz.  He hasn't simply enriched my musical world - he instilled a desire to explore all aspects of other cultures (not just music) and seek beauty in things unfamiliar.

Wow page 339 went by fast. I missed a lot of posts.

mary jo Frank Zappa is not for everyone. Mingus' music, as well as Zappa's also requires an "acquired taste" I'm happy you like Gene Ammons' "Angel Eyes" Beautiful song and album. 

nsp Don't be so harsh on Jimmy Page!  Hell is a little harsh. I would say musicians purgatory.

Stanley Turrentine’s 1961 live album, "Up At Mintons," which I also have is better then the 1973 live album. 5 stars IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDonxQFq4Wc&list=PL0q2VleZJVEkbfxJPz_ZDfXTBoyfxOgnO

I have both volumes of this as well. Grant Green really shines on them.