Jazz for aficionados

alextapos, 

King Crimson fan and completist here. They are still marching forward, with Fripp leading, as always, no matter the line-up - R.I.P. Greg Lake. Psychedelia (?) at its best, by the best...… 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBca3xf-j3o
  

Orpheus, you might be right. I guess it would be interesting to find out (or realise) why some music touch us and some other not.

In my case, I was always digging back thru time, looking to discover some music, because I did not like the one from the present. (born 1973)

Luckily, I have discovered jazz in my early 20’s and after that I was not looking or listening to other stuff, aldo I kept almost all my old records.

For a very short period of time, I listened to some 'fusion' as well, but it did not stick. Perhaps that even today I am quite reluctant to move back to that time frame, when we speak about some further development of music...


I have no idea how I would feel I was hearing jazz first and than come to live in a time when everything has changed, musicly and otherwise?
Probably I would become somebody like Rok (smile)....or perhaps not, after all?

Pjw,
if we were closer, I would give you some of my records as a gift, maybe it would be interesting for you to have some ’exotic’ prints.
Like I said, I cant listen to that anymore. It sounds so ’limited’ and ’predictable’, or even worse, just boring...or annoying....

I know that it sounds harsh, but that is exactly the feeling I got when I have guests and they ask me to play some other music than jazz...(sometimes I feel sorry for them, I am not a perfect host in that regard)

Blues, or some other pure or ’simple’ forms are ok... but hard rock, or sympho or progressive rock, or psychodelia...it sounds so pretentious, or funny, if I am in better mood....like children pretending to be adults...

Just picked up Court of the Crimson King on CD 4 days ago by accident. Iconic cover art.

Pat Metheny - "American Garage" - This is how I started off my Sunday morning. Is it Jazz? You tell me. Regardless, it's a great way to start the day.....

Alex, I also became bored with Rock which started me into Jazz. Especially drums for some reason.

First stop was current guitar monsters of Jazz. Yes, it is Jazz, but also a gateway.

Welcome Rubent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsqRtJog1l4

Without a doubt our tastes in music are a reflection of personality traits. The way I see it, one of the most difficult things for most people to do is to be comfortable “in the gray”; there is a tendency to want things to be either black or white...so to speak. The same idea applies in our personal search for a sense of identity; especially as we enter adulthood. I think researchers put individuals into three basic categories when researching this subject: “empathisers””, “systemisers” and those who are comfortable in the middle (the gray). Empathisers tend to like mellow sounding music and systemisers tend to like music that is more aggressive or more complex and complicated such as modern or avant-garde jazz; the group in the middle (the gray) tend to be reluctant to draw those lines and are more genre-neutral.

Not meaning to get too personal and this is not about judgment in any way. Alex, your comment “like children trying to be adults” is particularly interesting to me and suggests an extremely defined and “serious” sense of what being and adult means to you. As a parent of two children (one now an adult) one of the greatest personal positives of having children has been for me how it serves to pull me back to that kind of wide-eyed, non-judgmental attitude about certain things; the “gray”. Music is one of those things. I generally love being around children. Does this make me less of an adult? I hope not 🤪. You have often mentioned that you are very keyed in to the “sound” of your music and you seem to prefer the mellower sounds of West Coast jazz and others. I regret giving away my Allman Bros. records years ago when, as I got into music that I felt was “more serious”; I started to feel that the music was not “sophisticated” (adult) enough. When I listen to some of that music now I realize that some of it was pretty darn good music by any standard. Certainly not all of it has stood the test of time for me, but there is certainly a lot of jazz that for me is at a lower level of overall musical value; eventhough jazz is, overall, a preferred genre. I would encourage you to not give your records away (sorry, pjw), you never know.

Pryso, thanks for Monk’s “Dinah”. I hadn’t listened to that record for some time eventhough it’s a favorite, I love Monk’s “stride” playing ; great left hand.

I’m sure you know that your clip is actually Take 2 from the session. The reissue which I have includes alternate takes of some of the tunes. I always find it interesting how and why an artist may decide which “take” to put on the record. This example is interesting in that Take 1, which was not chosen for the original release, is actually a technically cleaner version. Monk was not known for the kind of flawless technique that other players have and sometimes one hears some “flubbing” of phrases as in Take 2. However, Take 2 sounds more “Monkish”; a little more percussive with even more of his quirky time feel and more accentuating of those great and unexpected dissonances from his right hand. Take 1 also sounds a little be-bopish toward the end; obviously not what Monk (or the producer) wanted. Some folks don’t like alternate takes on records. I think they are fascinating.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRzIgAbxlsg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x2RTXiMuuHc

Which version would other aficionados have chosen?

pjw
I liked the vid with Tai playing with H Hancock. I thought she fit into the group context well. A nice funk bass she laid down. The music reminded me of Herbie's 70's Headhunters/ Thrust groups. Herbies solo was amazing as always. I don't know credentials of the poster who complained about her but maybe he is a pro musician. If so Like frogman, musicians hear differently than us non-musicians and can be more critical I guess.
You recently posted L Willis . Are you familiar with his output on Mapleshade records.He cut a lot of good sessions with them. I can post if found on youtube.

Alex, jazz is the only music that springs from the heart and soul into the realm of the living where we can hear it. Jazz as you and I know it, is an expression of the emotions, the life and experiences of African Americans in the cities of the United States of America, as they went through the daily struggles required to survive.

While that most certainly is not the complete picture, it is the essence of the music. Bobby Timmons captures the core of what I'm talking about in his music, which is why it was so popular when presented, and is still recorded by many artists. "Moanin", "This Here" and "Dat Dere" were on juke boxes in the 60's, and still remains popular.

Of course it's possible "intellectually" to produce good jazz, but regardless how good it sounds, it lacks "soul"; that's a word which starts arguments, but the arguments are raised by those who are lacking that missing ingredient which can not be acquired.

The reason so many artists record "Moanin" is because when you hear the music, you can feel the emotion of the story behind it.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv9NSR-2DwM


My favorite version with Bobby and the Messengers; Lee Morgan blows his a-- off; this is the ultimate version, Benny Golson never sounded better.

While there is a ton of good jazz in my collection that lacks "soul", it  is still what projects the most intense human emotions.

frogman,

What is your opinion on my top 3 favorite guitarists up thread (last page)?....  Sorry but I don't agree with adult (sophisticated/hard to play?) and simple minded (4/4?) music. I like what I like. 

In the late 70's a friend told me I should trash all my Black Sabbath LP's (not!) because they were "simple....."

Black Sabbath, as I found out much later, created a totally new and original genre of music because they were not afraid to do what they wanted to do. Led Zeppelin, always the most "popular" and "adult" rock band, I found out later that many of their "hit songs" were just covers of old American legendary blues musicians (Willie Dixon as one) that they put their own twist on it.

4/4...I love James Brown!   9/11... I love Dave Brubeck!

"Sophisticated" and "adult" music don't mean anything to me. 

I started listening to jazz later in life and I love it. All kinds. Does that mean I have "evolved mentally" and should disregard my rock music?!?.... never.

Jimi Hendrix, King Crimson, Frank Zappa, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd, ect., I should now consider "below me" because I like jazz?!?

My children (adults now 32 and 28) listen to hip hop (yuk) but its all good. I took them to see Kenny Garrett at the Blue Note and they loved it!

What I like I like. What others like they like (whether I like it does not matter - should it?).

If I were so opinionated and closed minded I would end up like rok2id and that's not gonna happen while I am still breathing. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxC7EhPnsuo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP9esHs2DLs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaxb70VaEZs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDETNk20Vkc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5qNhicHopw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIANyO3jdA8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn11lH51a3Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LHMNxk8DqA

pjwI also bought the Byrd's live album a long time ago just for the "Eight Miles High" cut. I had read about the modal influence in a McGuinn interview .Here's another version wgere sax player sounds very Coltranish IMO.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a4vPRkMWxrw
 

Not that simple. Depends on what exactly about the various “things” you are talking about, There is a lot of commonality in all music in spite of the obvious differences. Those who don’t get that are just scratching the surface; it’s much easier (and comforting) the other way.

pjw, I’ll comment on the guitarists a little later today. Why apologize?  Well said.  

pjwThat KOB influence on D Allman is amazing!It shows the far reaching influence many jazz greats had on other genres of music. Big fan of original Allman Bros. I saw them early 70's fo r $2.00 per ticket at Stony Brook University. They were tightAnd stole the show. In my top 5 for rock concerts. My favorite cut:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UZE9Elp6uAE

Alex you presented this album, and I bought it; this album projects the mood and feel of these places (63rd and Cottage Grove, 45th and Calumet, La Salle street) when I was a teenager exploring them.

This is the power of music; John Wright projected these streets in his music so well, that you could re-experience strolling down them once again; they were among the the hippest streets in Chicago, but now, they only exist in the memories of people who lived there at that time, and enjoyed life as it was lived on those streets.


    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=john+wright+south+side+soul


The comments below this concur with my thoughts about this album, and that part of Chicago at that time.

Orpheus10, that French song was not exactly romantic, listen to it again. 

He who loves everything is clearly an imbecile.

Inna, since I don't speak French, I could only go by the picture; why don't you explain it?

Orpheus10, I don't speak French either, and the translation is in Bulgarian, another language that I don't understand. And I was not referring to picture, only to the music and singing. It conveys intense and not simple feelings of a loss experienced by a woman.
So, in this sense it is not romantic but these things can be romanticized, true, that's why I said "not exactly".
French are complicated.

I’ll give it a shot.

Ce soir je t’ai perdu, perdu
Je n’avais plus que toi
Ce soir je t’ai perdu, ô perdu
Mise à nue, j’ai froid sans toi, sans toi
————
Tonight I lost you
I had nothing else besides you
Tonight I lost you, lost you
Laid bare, I am cold without you, without you

Inna, I think you are more of a romantic than I thought 😍

nsp,
I liked that version of Eight Miles High. Edgy jazz/rock fusion.
Steve Marcus sounds good on the sax. And Larry Coryell was a great fusion guitarist. Just passed in February 2017. R.I.P.

I have seen the Allman Brothers at the Beacon Theater NYC (minus Duane). They always take no prisoners live and stretch a lot of their songs out on extended jams. "Mountain Jam" comes to mind.

rok & inna, Where does it say, in any of my posts, that I love everything?

My daughters along with much of the "me" generation like hip hop. I don't like hip hop but I am not going to belittle them because they do. 

rok, your avatar suggests you were Air Cavalry. Did you serve in Nam?

I get especially romantic when I sense an opportunity, and here there is a big one. I like that woman.
Frogman, appreciate your thinking about me, but she is mine.

Frogman, no worries, just speak up your mind...

When I used that analogy, I ment to say that children often like to impersonate grown ups and thats the feling I get now when I listen or look to some of music that I have listened before. (most often rock, the other stuff, like some that I posted for Orpheus is even more distant or unlistenable to me)

The fact that I am trying to prolong my childhood (first 50 years are the hardest they say) perhaps has something with the use of that analogy

Why I have such a strong feelings against rock and other music from past now, is interesting even for me....

But, in case you ever decide to visit and spend some holiday time here, you will return home with an album of Allman Brothers....and a copy of KC for PJW...

In the meantime...

’Moanin’

Oscar Peterson trio with Lee Morgan...

https://youtu.be/hUrjoTF8XyM

Yeah, Oscar Peterson, he plays very well, so what ? Boring.

Here’s an interesting question:

You’ve just gone on a hot date and, as you said earlier, you’re feeling romantic and sense an opportunity. After a wonderful dinner out you say: “Hey, baby, do you want to come up to my place and check out my lp collection?” She agrees and goes back to your place. You want to set the mood. You slap an lp on the table. Which lp do you suppose will better help you get to “third base”; or further if you’re really good? One of your ten copies of Mahavishnu Orchestra “Birds Of Fire”, or Oscar Peterson playing “Moanin” (your ultimate goal, after all) ? 😊

In my life the girl would demand Kenny G, and out she goes.

Inna, do you like any Jazz, not counting Mr. Mclaughlin? Last time you were here you said Sonny Rollins was not relevant and now Oscar Peterson is boring. I will give you that Morgan was struggling a little, but not boring, for anyone with "Jazz ears". 

None of the above. Depends on a woman, I might even sing myself.
The Inner Mounting Flame and Visions Of The Emerald Beyond are better than Birds Of Fire. Three Japanese copies of each, but I have rare Japanese pro of Birds Of Fire. Best cut there - Sanctuary.

Must try to find one copy of Kenny G, just in case...

acman3, I said that ? Right, now I remember. Yes, Rollins is irrelevant. Armstrong, Davis, Mingus, Coltrane are very relevant. Tony Williams too. Peterson is probably the best jazz piano player, I do like him more than Monk whom I don't care about at all. When I say "boring" it means that I at least pay attention.

It's astounding, that out of all the great jazz trumpet players, Lee Morgan edges out as number one.

Orpheus in which book?

Inna, you probably do not find that many interesting music here?
Funny, now as I think about it, I thoght you might like this Rollins album...

https://youtu.be/e1G8Og_p0ng

One of the many versions of "Moanin";


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvSO6dbEvzo


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjRQo-zpKA


A subdued, and very hip version of "Moanin"


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAY5Ggw-x8U

Rok, I think you are either misrepresenting or misinterpreting what Duke said.

“There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind”.

What he meant by that comment is that there is good and bad music in any genre or style. Duke was genre-neutral and much of his music reflected that.

Think about it. If that is not what he meant (as universally recognized), what would be the point of making the comment? That there is music of good quality and of bad quality is obvious. The salient point is that music is to be judged by its quality and one’s judgment of it shouldn’t be influenced by what genre the music is. The idea that “With some genres, it’s all “the other kind” is not supported by Duke’s comment. In my opinion, it’s just plain silly.

Alex, generally speaking, I like deeper sounds and also soaring sounds like Miles' trumpet. I heard most of what has been posted, heard it a long time ago. I even used to like Ben Webster and Ella/Pass duo, as an example. 

frog, I note no one yet replied to your question on Monk.  I don't have that album, I was just searching YT for another solo recording.

Anyway, I assume take 1 was numbered thus because it was recorded first.  It seemed to me that Monk lost the beat a couple of times in both takes.  To my ear that was different than his intended variations in timing.

If forced to choose I'll take #1.  The improvisation simply felt better, it was presented with a better "flow" for me.

Regarding the general discussions about changing likes, I've experienced quite a bit of that over the years.  Some of the fusion jazz that I once enjoyed is now boring for example.  One reason for that is it is a rare inclusion of electric piano that I now enjoy so that eliminated a fair number of recordings.  As I've suggested here before, over time I have learned to appreciate some music which at one time I wouldn't have bothered with.  At the same time, some old favorites (mainly rock) no longer hold their appeal.

To offer a specific example of my "growth" in changing taste, I bought this album shortly after it was released because there was so much discussion and praise for it.  Upon the first couple of listens I wondered WTF!  But over time I learned to appreciate the (then) newer direction and even enjoy it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71iR0kECPMU&list=PLF592AEB662C84871 

nice suggestion with Bean Bags Orpheus...I wasn't familiar with it and I'm streaming it now via Tidal and digging it.  Such a quality 1958 recording. 

Orpheus10, you like Dead Can Dance. I do too, though I virtually stopped listening to it. Lisa Gerrard is an excellent singer but she is abstract, distant, not really inviting. This is different , I like this voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7Le2ownH0

pjw, I was simply responding to what Rok said, nothing to do with you and your posts.