Chester Thompson (Happy 75th!)
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
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Listened to Peter Erskin, Peter Erskin. Thanks @acman3 . Listening to Kenny Drew Trio, Kenny Drew Trio now. |
Love that Peter Erskine album. Thanks @acman3 |
I saw Bill Evans in mid 70’s. With Evans, I’d just begun to listen to Jazz and wasn’t able to really take it in. Jazz still sounded "foreign" and "abstract’ to me. I didn’t know how to connect with it. Oh well. I saw Jarrett in late 70’s. By that point I was much more tuned into Jazz and was eagerly exploring the genre. At the Jarrett gig, the crowd treated him as if he were a god and when he got up and reached into the piano and began plucking the strings (in a not particularly musical fashion) they went nuts, as if he were walking on water or something. It was at that point that I realized that what I’d assumed was a concert was in fact a cult ceremony and I left. Subsequently, I’ve come to appreciate both, although forced to choose, it’s no contest for me -- I’ll go with Evans. If I had to choose just one piece of music to be played at my memorial service, it would be the live V. Vanguard performance of "My Foolish Heart" .
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I like Keith Jarrett and Miles Davis but i love Bill Evans and Chet Baker ... Keith Jarret is a marvellous super talented pianist with an ego he never learned to forgot though ... He play for himself first ...than there is mannerism in his playing so captivating it is and it is... I own one hundred albums of Jarrett by the way then nobody can accuse me of hating him 😁 ... But Bill Evans play for people, forgotting himself, without an ego or forgotting his ego , lost in music with us and moved by the music as we are with him ... Keith Jarrett impress me more than he moves me ... It is the reverse for Bill Evans....
I exactly remember the first time i listened Keith Karrett in 1976 in the Koln concert with a friend in his appartment ... i was impressed...Something pulsating in my mind i never forgot ... I remember exactly where and with whom i listened Bill Evans in a car long time ago and i was instantly moved ... Not so much impressed but moved by his playing something beating in my heart not in my mind at all ...I never forgot... Now Jarrett cannot stop speaking, mumbling etc because he is alone with the music, oblivious of us, we are not with him for him ... Evans is with us silently ....Music for him is not a show so good it can be but a sacred intimate moment he partake with us and never just for himself ... It is the same for Chet Baker ...I own 100 albums of Baker too ... I admired Keith Jarrett and Miles Davis; but Evans and Baker are more my friends than mere idols ... They spoke to me personaly more than they play music... I remember even thinking the first month : are Baker a top virtuoso and Evans too are they top good musicians ? I never doubt one second that Keith Jarrett and Miles Davis were top musicians virtuoso and never ask that question in my first listenings because it was evident from their playings... But like as you are with a woman that moves you a lot, you dont think about his way of making love if it must reflect a perfect or imperfect love making styles mastery waiting to be evaluated ... We think as such with a woman who we paid for entertainment not about a woman we love nevermind what ... I apologize for my example... I could not have a better one ...😁 For me Baker and Evans are in a class of their own with no comparison with anybody even to musicians with more virtuosity ... And they are many other top musicians at the trumpet as at the piano ...But they are not my personal friends...
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So I’m trying to listen to Walter Davis Jr. Trio, Scorpio album and it is so hard for me to get past Walter’s noises that are as loud as everything else on the album. Even my wife came out of the back room to ask what that horrible noise was. I don’t understand why they would leave that in the recording. Getting off my soapbox now. |
Wonderful lines by my most revered jazz pianist about his art that he explained so well here ... Nature is only one complex and simple gesture with no ego behind this gesture manifesting through all phenomenon ... Japanese zen culture as Chinese Taoism integrate it perfectly... In Europe Goethe seeing of plant and mammals and physical phenomenon as light and colors expressed it so well that few understood it ... Goethe never used mathematical formulas to exorcise nature or never hypothetized an evolutionary mechanism , his scientifical goal what not establishing a new theory but to change the way we look by forgetting any abstract theory and learn how to look before and behind our ego ... Bill Evans dont play piano with his ego; we feel he play without any ego, lost in music or lost in meaning ...
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"There is a Japanese visual art in which the artist is forced to be spontaneous. He must paint on a thin stretched parchment with a special brush and black water paint in such a way that an unnatural or interrupted stroke will destroy the line or break through the parchment. Erasures or changes are impossible". --Bill Evans
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Great post stuartk... thanks ...😊
The threshold of virtuosity is passed when this is the instrument which play you, no more you playing the instrument ... Music only grows ,not without, but certainly out of virtuosity ... I had this impression listening all great musicians ... By the way it is true of the thinking process too in the same way as it is true for a set of artistic gestures , the thought process must go on its own and the thought process work better without the ego ....Mathematics thinking is the best example of this ...
" The tools think better than you , let it work " -- Anonymus craftmanship artist |
Arguably, this is a prerequisite for performing ANY style of improvised music well. It’s pretty hard to stay "in the zone" while switching back and forth between right and left brains. Your topic brought the following to mind: "Just a little more and this instrument is gonna be so connected with my brain that my fingers aren’t gonna have to play it" -- Duane Allman |
This short 45 minute Bill Evans documentary, created in 1964, is very interesting. "Its much more important, Evans feels, to master fundamentals, both in theory, so that you understand what you're doing, and then in active practice developing ones musical muscles. Not just technical facility but also the brain connection with the arm muscles so to speak, developing that facility to the point where the subconscious mind can take over the basic mechanical task of playing, thus freeing the conscious mind to concentrate on the spontaneous development that distinguishes the best jazz... Universal Mind of Bill Evans (1966 Documentary) - YouTube
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@frogman I figured you may have heard about Weiss, you and he being neighbors so to speak. And I agree with you about the Brooklyn Jazz Scene. Very hot indeed. A man is as good as his reputation...
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@pjw81563 I don’t know Dan Weiss personally, but I know his playing and he is very very good. He has a great rep. One of the best young drummers and part of the very hot and creative Brooklyn Jazz scene. |
@frogman Thanks for your input on the Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, and Philly Joe discussion. My drummer friend told me Elvin listened to a lot of Shadow Wilson's drumming for some of his own ideas especially concerning "triplet fills". And here is a text my drummer friend sent me a while back about Jimmy Cobb and Philly Joe. My friend had just had a lesson with the NYC jazz drummer Dan Weiss. The lesson was focused on Roy Haynes's drumming.
@frogman I was wondering if you know the jazz drummer Dan Weiss. He and my buddy Mike were working on Roy Haynes's famous "snap crackle" technique. |
I just finisher to listening to many albums of Manu Katché a drummer ... The musicians who he attracted are very good ... None of these 8 albums were bad... I pick only jazz albums .... Katché make other collaborations in many genres ... We often think here in this thread about musician creativity and influence , who is the best at sax or trumpet etc ... These are esthetical thoughts about creativity ... our tastes evaluation about creativity and esthetic for each of us about any albums can vary ...
But there is also healing effects which are specific to our own metabolism and habit ...Which effects are not evaluated as esthetical factors .... This explain why some music appears just good or bad for some and not for others ... Katche music is very relaxing jazz to me ... 😊
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Thanks for taking the time to go into this topic in more depth. What you say makes sense. As a guitar player, I understand the significance of modes. Perhaps Fusion is itself too broad a term because as time went on, the genre changed quite a bit. Now that we’re into this topic, I’m not even sure when Fusion started. Is "Extrapolation" Fusion? What about "Odyssey of Iska" or "Mountain in the Clouds" or the first version of RTR w/ F. Purim? Or, are these transitional, occupying a hazy territory somewhere between Jazz and Fusion? The above albums sound very different, to my ears, than say "School Days" , "Splendido Hotel" or "In Search of a Dream". These albums are much slicker, more Funk and Rock influenced, with a more overt emphasis on dazzling chops and "tunes" based on (to me) often monotonous riffs/ostinatos rather actual chord changes. BTW, the "Lifetime" album I referred to was not the one with larry Young and Johnny Mac. It was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DZccr0dzWE
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Each post of frogman is like a small jazz masterclass ...😊 Thanks ... It help my ears/brain to listen differently and approach a musician as Davis with more understanding than just my mere uninformed "taste" ... Music is also ethic and knowledge not only esthetic, each musician embody an ethical,esthetical and a knowledge perspective inherited from his time which he contribute to transform ... my thanks to you frogman... |
@stuartk , with respect (sincerely!), I think that you are “viewing” the process of the evolution of Jazz with “markers” that are too broad. I never said that the sound of the “second great quintet” was Fusion-like. I wrote: *** A stylistic period of Miles’ that clearly showed him headed toward a Fusion/Rock sensibility ***. “…headed toward…”. Now, obviously, to identify why it can be said that it is “headed toward” there must be some characteristics in the style of the compositions and the style of how they are played that points to a change and a departure from the then current general Jazz sensibility. That departure/change had begun a few years earlier still. The reason KOB is such a landmark recording is that it changed everything. It ushered in modal Jazz. Most of the tunes on KOB have very simple chord progressions and those are based on “modes”. While standard Jazz tunes written up to the time of KOB might have up to two or three different chord changes in each and every measure of a thirty two measure chorus, in modal Jazz you might have one single chord change every eight measures. It was Miles’s way of freeing up the soloists from the harmonic constraints of complex chord changes. Well, what is one of the main identifying traits of Fusion (as being discussed here)? Very simple chord progressions and the use of modes. Sheer coincidence? It’s part of the continuum that is the evolution of the music and those changes happen over time in much finer increments than we often consider. Then there is the change in the general approach to rhythm. By the late ‘50’s Jazz starts becoming less “swingy”. Less of a triplet feeling and closer (ultimately almost entirely) to a straight, more even, feel. This is reflected in the way that the players play. As always, what drives these changes has a lot to do with societal sensibilities as a whole. Artists are people too and they express what’s happening at the time. Tony Williams was a young Jazz drummer living in a time when R&R was taking off. A music with very even rhythmic feel, zero swing of the usual type. And he goes on to record projects that had very strong Rock elements. Is it any surprise that Williams would have a certain sensibility in his playing that was what Miles was looking for as he moved his music forward stylistically? I don’t think so. Herbie Hancock. Herbie went on to record a great deal in a funk/fusion/electronic groove. Wayne Shorter. Shorter went on to co-found probably the biggest name in Fusion, Weather Report. More coincidences??? No way! It had all been set in motion by the time that the music became overtly and obviously “FUSION”. Miles chose those particular players for a reason. That is what I mean when I say Miles was “clearly headed toward a Fusion/Rock sensibility”. That’s the way it always works. Doesn’t matter the time period. In many general ways the same things can be said of the the evolution of Jazz from traditional/Dixieland to Swing, to Bebop, to the present. Miles was a great musical genius. He was obviously the main driving force in his bands regardless of time period, but he chose players that played in a way that supported his broader musical vision at any point in his career. Thanks for the dialogue. I enjoy your commentary, Btw, perhaps I don’t understand this part of your question about Tony Williams’ first two Blue Notes. To me, “Lifetime” is full fledged Fusion by then.
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I focussed my attention on a drummer these days ... It is not often the case ... Sometimes in the past i did it as for Paul Motian for example or Elvin Jones ... Manu Katché is very interesting ... I am interested by albums created around him ...I listen to 9 of them now ... He did never take the stage and serve the music so well we forget him but his work is so minimalistically musically good ... Colored me impressed ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHnbMbMMr38
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Good choice indeed and good ears...😊😉 It is one of the best three among the 12 albums i listened to ...
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@stuartk thanks the question. Good one. I’ll respond later today. |
Well, I’m perplexed. You are more erudite than I"ll ever be on the topic of Jazz but I definitely don’t hear the music of the 2nd great 5tet as fusion-like. Once Corea and Holland arrived, yes. Before that? No. Would you therefore characterize the albums J. McLean released when he had Williams on drums similarly, or William’s two early Blue Notes as a leader? I’m curious about your thinking process. Care to explain? Speaking of B Carter, I particularly enjoy "Further Definitions" and "Jazz Giant" even though they sound "old fashioned" within the context of my collection, which is mostly Post Bop. |
On the subject of “influence” and Elvin Jones/Tony Williams. I think it is important when comparing players to not think too much in terms of superiority of perceived amount of “influence”. Elvin and Williams were tremendously influential and copied by other drummers. But so were players like Philly Joe. Elvin and Williams would be the first to say it as Philly Joe was one of THEIR main influences. It’s a continuum. Jazz is always building on what came before stylistically and like any art form it reflects the time of its creation. Tommy Williams was heavily Rock influenced. He is considered by many to be the first Fusion drummer.. He was the perfect drummer for Miles’ “Second Great Quintet”. A stylistic period of Miles’ that clearly showed him headed toward a Fusion/Rock sensibility. Williams would not have been the perfect drummer for Miles’ “The Quintet”. I can’t imagine Miles’ “Cookin” without the feel and swagger that Philly Joe brought to the music.
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Although I happen to prefer the two I suggested already, "Modern Art" and "Portrait of Art Farmer" are better known:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xlwqdq1KY8&list=OLAK5uy_kBmYS4IvRE1WxDXl7XeTXGQkBqCWRO4Io
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I collected many albums of these two playing together this only time i think :
Yelena Eckemoff · Manu Katche "Colors" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4FLCc-TAIQ&list=PLKyeEtfjtazmJHZBOBzvDrAo1dW1Ucg6d |