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**** Also, I do not beleive that anybody would consider jazz to be less significant because its creators have been influenced or exposed to other styles of music which they incorporated to that new sound.
Why is that even an issue?****
Excellent point and excellent question. I have some thoughts on the matter, but ultimately I think it comes down to human nature and how difficult it is for most of us to admit, if only to ourselves, that we have been wrong about something for a long time.
**** I wonder why the people who can talk music to death can not play music to death****
By that ridiculous notion (and silly attempt at a dig) it could be said that Bird, Blakey, Desmond, Coltrane, Miles.....you name it, “could not play music to death”. All, and just about every Jazz musician of any standing, have supported what Wynton speaks of and many have been very vocal about it.
None of this knowledge is necessary to enjoy the music. However, it can definitely add an entirely new dimension to the experience and enjoyment of it. Why some feel the need to take that away from those who do appreciate that perspective is something that is way above my pay grade as far as the psychology of it all goes. |
Third time posting. Paul Desmond intervews Charlie Parker https://bobreynoldsmusic.com/paul-desmond-charlie-parker/ He does not seems to be an individulal close in his own universum of ideas and closed for other influences Frogman, my last question was for Rok, or Op. I am curious to understand why they think that Wynton is ’bending’ the truth. Also, I do not beleive that anybody would consider jazz to be less significant because its creators have been influenced or exposed to other styles of music which they incorporated to that new sound. Why is that even an issue? |
I wonder why the people who can talk music to death can not play music to death. I do one thing and I do it very well, I listen to music. I don’t need nobody to tell me the dramatic difference between "Bop" and "Swing"; the difference between Lester Young and Charley Parker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK4FsQzUqB4That was Lester Young; this is Charley Parker;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovCpL1zjBgI
Can any one tell me how swing sounds like "Bop"? There was a revolution in music like no other that preceded anything before it, and the man primarily responsible was Charles "Yard Bird" Parker.. That case has been closed for ages. I even feel foolish debating it. |
**** In documentary Wynton talks about history of music and jazz and he says ’this led to that’ and so on (’there was swing, than came the bop’, etc) So, if we follow that line, it looks quite logical, even the musical examples are making sense, it seems that really some styles are developed from the previous ones, or on the base of it.**** That is exactly right; it is quite logical. It is even more logical when, as you noted, the musical examples make the point. This goes to another one of the misconceptions about this music on the part of some. There have been many attempts to discuss this here with, unfortunately, little success. Some think that, for instance, bebop appeared in a vacuum; that all of a sudden ”Modern Jazz” appeared independent of what came before it. Far from it. The evolutionary process in Jazz is one of the most important in understanding the music. Btw, same idea applies to Classical music; the music of one era builds on what was done before. The evolution of Jazz builds on what was done before. Bebop could not have occurred had there been no swing; it built on what swing did. Swing could not have occurred had there been no Ragtime; it built on what Ragtime did. **** At which point do you think that jazz, as music form was created, pure and free from any possible previous influences? **** Did not happen that way. Could not have happened that way. That is the whole point of the evolutionary process. Even in its infancy, Jazz was built on previous influences. In Ragtime, Scott Joplin created a music style which has as a primary feature the syncopated, or jagged, rhythms of the Cuban “Habanera”; which itself was built on the influences of European and African music. Is it a surprise that Cuba is very near New Orleans? Then we had W.C. Handy who collected folk songs as he travelled through Mississippi which used what we now know as “the blues form”. Jelly Roll Morton is credited with “creating” Jazz around the turn of the 20th century by incorporating the jagged rhythms of Ragtime with the “Blues” sound and form. Btw, it is probably best, for the sake of a discussion such as this and to avoid confusion, to not use “form” as a synonym for “style”. “Form” is a particular structure that a music or specific piece of music uses as its framework. For example, the Blues typically uses a repeated 12 measure form. Important elements of what we call “Blues” can be demonstrably traced to Africa. The elements of harmony in Ragtime and Blues can be demonstrably traced to Europe. I don’t think it needs to be explained why there existed the cultural influences of Europe and Africa in places like Cuba and New Orleans. All these cultural influences came together in then very cosmopolitan New Orleans in a melting pot of musical ideas to create Jazz; and that was the foundation for all the Jazz styles that followed. Jazz is a continuum of concepts and ideas that builds on and expands on concepts that preceded it; all with the underlying primary concept of freedom (improvisation). This is why Jazz is considered the quintessential American art form. As American culture developed (for better or for worse) this development (evolution) was reflected in the changing Jazz styles. Think about what was happening politically in America and with the encroachment of technology in American culture and you will find an almost perfect parallel in Jazz. https://youtu.be/oUaLc1zabVo |
'Politics' aside, I have another question, regarding ongoing discussion.
We are all aware that 'jazz' is very diverse and very broad term as well.
So, we have all these different styles and I guess that we can all agree that at some point there were influnces from one to another, no matter in which type or form.
In documentary Wynton talks about history of music and jazz and he says 'this led to that' and so on ('there was swing, than came the bop', etc)
So, if we follow that line, it looks quite logical, even the musical examples are making sense, it seems that really some styles are developed from the previous ones, or on the base of it.
So, my question is this. At which point do you think that jazz, as music form was created, pure and free from any possible previous influences?
What would be the best example of such music, meaning, how did it sound?
If you had to name it or describe it, what style it was? |
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Obfuscation by way of a torrent of irrelevant data and presumptions.
Isn’t it interesting how sometimes a person hears only what they want to hear. An interview over one hour long with one passing reference (with interesting factual example) to an Irish rhythm that crept into the melting pot and all of a sudden that becomes “(all that) they talk about”.
Maybe you were correct after all, Alex. For at least one party it is about politics.
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Rok, it doesn't matter whether one thinks, or does not think of one's ancestry, it is what it is.
I should think that the inner city is a lot better than the cotton fields of Texas or Mississippi.
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Wynton and the Interview:
The whole thing was a setup. It happens all the time. Of course The Frogman knows this better than any of us.
Lets set the stage.
You have, on stage, the most important person in the world of Jazz today. The leader of the Nation's Jazz band. One of the most talented and the most knowledgeable person in Jazz. From a family considered Jazz Royalty, and from New Orleans, the birthplace of the music. With him, is another person from New Orleans, and surely a future star in the music, a young guy, and band leader of a National late night TV house band..
The audience is full of Jazz enthusiasts. This is Jazz heaven, they must have thought.
Soooooo, what do we talk about? I know I have a billion questions.
What did they actually talk about? How many of you guessed, "The Irish Influence on Jazz"? Not any hands showing.
The moderator was grinning so broadly, you could count all his teeth.
We have all seen this movie before. It is pervasive in sports and entertainment in the U.S. Esp where black folks are involved.
Cheers
Note to OP. Black people in the U.S. are a lot more than "descendants of Slaves". With that attitude, they will still be stuck in the inner city, 5000 years from now.
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Alex,
Actually, in my 45 years as a professional musician, Rok is the only person (O-10, sometimes, not so much other times) that I have ever encountered that so adamantly contests what is universally accepted as how Jazz came to be; a melting pot of cultural/ethnic influences expressed in music. Wynton is far from being the first person to state what he did in that video; his ideas are anything but novel. Jazz musicians have been talking about these things for decades and there is a tremendous amount of musicological opinion written that explains, analyzes and supports what Wynton says. All this is also readily available on line. Also, and perhaps you’ve missed it, but this issue has been the subject of debate and contention here many times since the very beginning of this thread. And you’re correct, why would Wynton put his reputation in jeopardy? He wouldn’t.
Re “ideology”:
I used the word, not Rok. You assumed incorrectly that my use of the word “ideology” refers to politics. You also assumed incorrectly that my political views differ from Rok’s; I share his views in many respects. I don’t know what all that the word “politics” means to you, but this is my definition of “ideology” for the purpose of this discussion (from the dictionary):
“- ideology: the science of ideas; the study of their origin and nature.”
It could certainly refer to politics, but not necessarily and not what I was alluding to when I used the word. The irony in all this is that it is all easily demonstrable. What Wynton did in his explanations is only the tip of the iceberg of all that can be demonstrated. The problem is that to understand it one has to be able to speak the language of music at least on a rudimentary level; or, at least be open minded about understanding basic principles.
Sadly, and as demonstrated just above, some simply don’t know what they are talking about. Case in point:
**** It is the musical expression of complex emotions that can only be expressed musically. ****
Sounds good, insightful, in a way; but, mistaken due to its needless exclusivity. Tell that to a great poet, or painter, or sculptor, or writer, or film maker, or...
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Wynton Marsalis is a Johnny come lately who was never able to do anything with a blank sheet of music paper as far as jazz is concerned, and Frogman has been trying since day one to say that everyone including maybe Martians had something to do with American jazz.
Real "modern" jazz is music that came from the inner sanctum of the Black urban inner cities. It is the musical expression of complex emotions that can only be expressed musically.
There is the possibility that some of these emotions have only been felt by descendent's of slaves and consequently can not be comprehended by others, not even those who went to "Julee Yard".
The best example of a jazz musician that creates music which expresses complex emotions that are commonly felt by descendant's of slaves is "Bobby Timmons"
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Frogman, I understand and I agree, about the art in general.
Still, as outsider I am not quite sure what do you and Rok mean by 'ideology' ?
Obviously, your different points of view are not releted to music only, but to 'politics' in wider sense of a word.
Why would someone as
knowledgeable as Wynton claim something that is not true and with it put his reputation at stake?
Is it too much to ask that we stick to that subject and that you guys express your thoughts? Others are welcome too.
Here, where I come from, we have sort of ongoing conflict between different national and religous groups which is silly, because they are all beeing exploited by the same class of people only wearing different 'colors' (has nothing to do with race)
Just wanted to say that members of different nations (here) are trying so hard to present themself as different from another (despite sharing many, many things, including language, which is also something majority strongly deny) and that they would never publicly admit that they have anything that conects them.
Is there something like that in US going on (talking about origins of jazz music) ?
If there is some ideology behind it, I would asume that there would be more people who think like Rok, but than again, I cant imagine that somebody like Wynton would deny something so crucial for identity and heritage, not only his, but of whole nation? |
Glad you enjoyed the video, Alex. Very interesting indeed. Wynton is one of the most insightful and knowledgeable figures in music today; and very erudite.
The disagreement has to do with, among other things, the origin of Jazz and the influence of the music and culture of countries outside of America on that origin. They are universally (not Rok) recognized ideas on how those multi ethnic influences shaped Jazz as we know it today. No art form is created in a vacuum, independent of the ethnic and cultural influences of its creators; whether direct or handed down. |
You know, in some ways you have really good instincts for music. However, your ego and ideology get in the way of becoming a better listener. Its all there to be heard and it is obvious when one becomes a more open minded, hence better, listener. Some prefer to limit the experience of listening to what supports one’s ideology. A personal choice; but opportunity lost.
Btw, I know Burns’ doc well and there is no inconsistency.
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From the comments section of the Wynton / Batiste interview:
"6/8 we call it 'adowa' in Ghana west Africa, it forms an integral base of the traditional music of the Ashanti people".
As Jackie Gleason used to say, "and away we go"....
Cheers |
Jazz: Wynton and the Irish.
It took me a while to respond, I was laughing so hard. New meaning to LMAO!!!!
There was a time when this "jungle music" was solely the responsibility of black folks. It was all their fault, and PROVED they were inferior. Definitely their creation and plague upon our land.
Then a curious thing happened, especially during and after WWl. The world discovered this music, thanks in large part to Lt. Jimmy Europe and his Army band, and fell in love with it. It was / is considered America’s ONLY contribution to music. OMG!!! What is we gon do now!!!!
Meanwhile, back at ’powers that be’ HQ: Well boys, it’s back to the drawing board.
They must have brought it with them. Yeah yeah that’s it. It’s African in origin. We all know music travels with skin color. That’s even in the Bible.
That dog didn’t hunt.
Now, it’s the Irish. Lawd, Lawd.
and so on and so on
You want to know what Wynton really thinks, watch the Ken Burn’s series, "JAZZ."
Responsibility makes cowards of us all. And Wynton, has a ton of responsibility.
Cheers
Nice try Frogman. No Cigar.
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Just watched the video, I find it very interesting. To me it looks like they know what they are talking about.
Curious, also, what exactly is that you do not agree with, Rok?
Acman, Hawk and the saxes, nice album, will try to get it... |
That’s about the response I expected from you. Like clockwork.
Two extremely accomplished musicians whose music you have praised as much as, if not more, than just about anybody. One in particular you hold as God and Savior of the music. Yet, you consider what they (and, by extension, me) have to say about the music’s makeup and history, integral parts of the very reasons that it sounds good to you, “complete and utter BS”.
Hmmm, I wonder who it is that is suffering a disconnect and is spouting BS?
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complete and utter BS.
Cheers |
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Great to see Frank Wess getting some love. One of my favorite tenor sounds and one of the pioneers of Jazz flute. Got early recognition as member of the Count Basie orchestra. Can’t imagine being able to swing harder than this; and without playing loud. What a band! https://youtu.be/yhK8TV27sBohttps://youtu.be/WkiB-6hvBtQGreat record with tenor player and Basie section mate Frank Foster: https://youtu.be/_lB3Xu_rAHMI posted this fairly recently. Recorded live shortly before he passed. Remarkable to be able to play like this at age 87. In the tradition of the great tenor battles with Frank Foster during the Basie years, here with a young(er) player that he mentored and is one worth checking out, Scott Robinson. I’d be happy to be able to pick my nose at 87: https://youtu.be/YtY4WeNEQy8 |
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Thanks for that link pryso.
When I first heard Tal (and saw her as well) It was on the Jeff Beck live at Ronnie Scotts bluray which I bought 10 year ago. She looked like she was 18 years old. (check my Jeff Beck link above).
She has gotten better and better over the last 10 years. Her debut album has mixed reviews. |
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And mary_jo, thank you for the Beck clip. I understand if he may not be played much in a jazz listing, but good music is good music. True pryso. Plus it is nice to see him supporting young talents. Here with Tal Wilkenfeld: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn2Yvjd5kqY |
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rok, thanks for that O'Day with OP. They worked well together.
I've posted her two numbers from Newport '58 a couple of times. I never could find another performance by her I liked so well, for me it was mesmerizing. Just forget about the (daytime) audience.
And mary_jo, thank you for the Beck clip. I understand if he may not be played much in a jazz listing, but good music is good music.
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Hey frogman thanks for the Artie Shaw documentary link. Watching it now. Inna that Gary Moore is fantastic. Great player.
The Messiah Will Come Again was written by one of my favorite Guitar players - Roy Buchanan (always used the Telecaster)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deeBQZ8Aklc
Mary_jo You know how I feel about Jeff Beck. Other then Jimi Hendrix he is the most creative and diverse to ever strap on a guitar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5OT7f5hetM
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Inna, where have you been, Tahiti?
That was good whatever it was.
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Here we are talking about lists, and The Jazz Queen is patiently waiting, all dressed up, with her dancing shoes on, and it’s Saturday night. It was still too early for her to go to the club, the night was still young. She made him a dinner. And a bit later there she was, all dressed up waiting for her lover to come. The lights were dimmed. She took a look at the table. His favorite food was there and already too chilled wine in an ice bucket. She smiled the way lovers do, with impatient glow in the eyes. The sound of Bill Evan’s piano was coming from another room while the curtains were swaying in a summer breeze coming from the half opened window. ~ Time already slipped away when she realized that it was quite dark outside but refused to worry, he said he would come, he was just a bit late. She changed the music, took of her shoes, decided to rest a bit on the couch until he comes but fell asleep. He never came... my funny valentine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_r0-Nio38 my foolish heart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raLlS7B3GiY but beautiful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl6aEZ47AVs you’d be so nice to come home to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHHJ9KJWF4E |
Only a few? Let me tell you about the pizza, the bagels and lox........my good looks? 😊
Lol, that too! |
**** One of the few things I truly envy you for. ****
Only a few? Let me tell you about the pizza, the bagels and lox........my good looks? 😊 |
Yet another piece of what is NYC and its very diverse musical culture. Not just musical. One of the few things I truly envy you for. We had it here long, long time ago. Seems like an ancient history now. |
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Good to see you back, O-10. Beautiful Frisell! That’s another piece of NYC; stoop concerts. Thanks, acman3. Listened to this tonight. It’s no secret how good the JALC band is. Great players with a great leader; although he (Wynton) is not present for this performance. This clip knocked me out. A real and great Latin rhythm section with the great JALC brass and reeds. Almost a revelation to hear some of the vintage Machito and Tito Puente arrangements with brass and reed playing at such a high level. Just as impressive is that they play the charts with the same authentic swagger as the great guest Latin rhythm section; but with sounds and intonation not always heard from early Latin big bands. Rok recently asked if Dan Nimmer was the greatest piano player today. I don’t know about “greatest”, but he sounds fabulous playing this style. Great solos from all. One of the most enjoyable things that I have seen on YouTube. Leader for the night, mc and JALC bass player Carlos Henriquez does a great job talking about the music performed and the history of Afro-Cuban music and Latin Jazz. Yet another piece of what is NYC and its very diverse musical culture. Highly recommended! https://youtu.be/1Laj1BHoEaI |
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