Jazz for aficionados

Maybe this will help to establish the 77 time frame


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrzxW0rsD1Q


Enjoy the music

**** A soloist picking up where the other left off was an example of just ONE solo in that JALC example. It is ONE way that a soloist can start a solo, and a good and interesting way, but NOT the only way ****

I see you are still in the 'Strawman' business.  I was responding to a comment by "jzzmusician" that he thought Fusion  and other Jazz tunes develop as the tune is being played.  I used your example, as an example of tune development and said I didn't hear any similar thing in the fusion piece.  I was supporting my argument that the fusion piece had no continuity at all.  No one ever said all soloist have to do that.  No one ever implied it either.

Nice try.




jzzmusician

Of course my opinion can be challenged; I welcome it.  I have clearly said that I have no issue with you or anyone else not liking this or any other music.  However, you made a case for why the music had no merit by using an example that had no merit.  Where's the challenge?  That you don't like it?  As I said, nothing wrong with that; but, a pretty feeble challenge. 

This is a record that's on my play list right today. I bought it new and never got the CD, don't even know if it's on CD. I never got enough of this record. It came out in 77.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buFUP2LvK2s




Enjoy the music.

***** the Chick Corea music most of the music is "through-composed" (Wiki, look it up). That is what I meant when I said that the music should be approached like a symphony. Much of what you hear in that music is not improvised; it is part of the composition and within the framework of that composition there is room for improvised solos. In that way, it is like Duke’s jazz suites with "movements" within which and between which the soloists improvise. The soloists don’t follow each other in the more typical and simpler way, so there would be no opportunity for the soloists to even do what you point to. Apparently you thought that what was part of the composition was soloing. Now, the REALLY important stuff:*****

Explaining something does not make it more palatable.  Music is about hearing and personal taste.  Emotional reactions.  Any music sounds good to at least some people.   If only the people that play it.

Ellington's name in a paragraph on Fusion???  How dare you.

Cheers

Frogman,

I'd never heard of Martial Solal until your last post. Just spent the last half hour listening to his stuff.

Whoa......

Two of my favorite things in life are discovering new food and new music. You nailed this one.

Thank you. This guy is the sh*t!!!

-- Bob

***** Sadly, not much new. Wholesale panning of an entire genre that, obviously, many on his thread find value in; and, instead of simply expressing dislike it is put down in insulting ways. Nice.*****

Well the sign over the door does say 'Jazz for Aficionados'.  If Jazz can be panned, surely non-Jazz stands a good chance of being Panned.  AND, unlike some people, my opinion is just that, MY opinion.   No more or less valid than any other.  But differences in opinion does make for good conversation.   

And btw, I have insulted no one.  But maybe some folks consider differences as insulting.

Cheers

Now we await the deluge of "why do you bother' or "they are so arrogant" or "call the administrators" or well,   you get the drift.

Cheers

Rok, you're grasping at straws.  Hey, no hard feelings.

Frogman, as far as I am concerned; and I don't mean for it to be offensive, but it's real. I preface this statement with the big "I", meaning one person, and one person only.

With all the musical knowledge you and Learsfool have combined, if you can not put it together to make a sound equivalent to this, it's moot.



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzgyO6ndjo


Now I know Learsfool is going to tell me he's got students who can produce music equivalent to this, so I'll excuse him.

The bottom line is the music, not the nuts and bolts.



Enjoy the music.

Hard feelings?  No way.  You are a treasure on this thread.   A man who truly knows and loves music, and wants to share that with others.  Where would we be without you.

But, Fusion still sucks, unless, it's not  considered Jazz, then it's just another genre. 

The reason?  It's not a natural progression of Jazz.  It's creation had more to do with the amount of money being made by Rock groups on tour, versus the amount of money being made by Jazz players, esp as the popularity of Jazz declined.  Like the Frankenstein of music.

Rock damaged or destroyed a lot.  Jazz, Rock&Roll, Soul, R&B, Country.  Criminal.

Cheers

O-10, like you, I don't mean this to be offensive.  If you want an honest answer, please try again because I have no idea what it is your asking.  I hope it's not what it appears you're asking, because if it is, it is one of the most nonsensical things I have ever read.  Equivalent to: what on earth does that mean?  

Rok, like you said we are all entitled to our opinions; and my opinion is that you've got it all wrong.  But, let me get this straight, fusion would not suck if it weren't considered jazz.   I get it now.

I retract my last post because that would be equivalent to telling a scientist, that if he can not come up with something equivalent to Einstein's famous formulas, he's a flop.


Enjoy the music.

Oh, I see, that makes much more sense. Thanks for clarifying, O-10.

With regard to fusion and the "development" of the tune being played; one of my favorite all time compositions is "Music for 18 Musicians" by Steve Reich.  He is a modern classical composer and for me, illustrates the development of seemingly repetitive music beautifully.

I apologize in advance for throwing classical music into a jazz thread but only did so to read your opinion and learn and discover more about jazz.

Bob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5U9577N-dQ

******But, let me get this straight, fusion would not suck if it weren't considered jazz.   I get it now. ******

Just in case that's a feeble attempt at sarcasm, think about it this way.

Placido Domingo doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6iSL1dsShc

Or, James Brown doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucXt7eaWRI

Two great artists, as long as they stay in their lanes.

Cheers

Trying to follow your logic and not having much luck; help me out please.

****But, Fusion still sucks, unless, it's not considered Jazz, then it's just another genre. ****

 So, from that comment and your examples I gather that you're  saying that the genre fusion doesn't suck: it's just that jazz players playing it make it suck?  Or simply calling it jazz makes it suck? Why am I following this logic?  Let's see:

Funk doesn't suck and James Brown doesn't suck.
Opera doesn't suck and Placido doesn't suck.
James Brown singing opera sucks.
Placido singing funk sucks.

We are in agreement so far.  Now, 

Chick Corea plays great jazz.
Chick Corea playing fusion sucks.  Or is it?:
Fusion sucks because Chick Corea plays it.

Herbie Hancock plays great jazz.
Herbie playing fusion sucks.  Or is it?:
Fusion sucks because Herbie plays it.

Jeff Beck doesn't suck.
Jeff Beck is not a "jazz" player.
Jeff Beck playing jazz sucks.  But,
Jeff Beck playing fusion doesn't suck.
Fusion played by Jeff Beck doesn't suck.

Am I getting warm?

Close.

Brown singing Opera, is not Opera.  it's a joke.

Domingo Singing Funk,  is not Funk.  It's a joke

ANYONE playing Fusion,  is Not JAZZ.  It's a joke

Fairly simple.  At least for those who want to see it.

Cheers

18 Musicians:

I stuck with it for about half the length.  Not that bad really, if the atmosphere and environment are right.   Probably much better to see it live.

Could be the best example of 'Advancing the Art' posted so far.   I can see this being an example of the ultimate fate of human music.  Complete 'Fusion'  into something that is beyond description.  Something that will appeal to all humanity.  Totally inoffensive.

One of the comments said they played a wrong note at 23:47.  I had to laugh out loud.  But, it appears they are correct.

One of The Frogman's  favorite composers, so I think it will be well received.

I think I might buy it.  I think it will sound great on the main rig.

Cheers

jzzmusician, no need to apologize, classical music discussion is not new to this thread.  Reich's Minimalist piece Music For 18 Musicians is one of the most interesting contemporary pieces written; almost like being in a dream state for an hour.  Your description is exactly right; it illustrates development beautifully.  Particularly fascinating is the use of the human breath to create rhythmic pulses.  Thanks for that and glad you enjoyed Martial Solal.

Sorry, left off the most important part.
 
Close.

Brown singing Opera, is not Opera, or Funk.  it's a joke.

Domingo Singing Funk,  is not Funk, or Opera.  It's a joke

ANYONE playing Fusion,  is Not JAZZ, or Rock.  It's a joke

Fairly simple.  At least for those who want to see it.

Cheers

Weather Report Heavy Weather. Another album of music, that was brought up,  communicated to this soul. I have no idea why. Thanks for bringing it up. I only got one copy of that album. O-10, rok, Frogman and others. I like, most of the music you have posted, a lot. Thank you. And I really like learning more about  the musicians and music from all of you. The bickering is like nails on a chalk board though. The wit and jousting is fun. This is at times, and can be, the best thread on audiogon for me. Keep the good stuff going.

marqmike, you are welcome and thanks for the post.  I agree with you that the bickering is unfortunate.  It is completely unnecessary and could be avoided if everyone would be more mindful of what you wrote: its music that "communicated to this soul"; nicely worded.  I can't even begin to count the times that have called for not putting down others' music preferences.  We all have types of music that we don't like as much as others or not at all and can say so; but there are very different ways of saying it.  

Why are my ears burning?

Randy Weston (born April 6, 1926 in Brooklyn, New York) is an American jazz pianist and composer of Jamaican parentage. He was described by Marian McPartland as "one of the world's great visionary pianists and composers".

Since this is the description Marian McPartland gave Randy Weston, I think his music is a good place to start in my search for new music. I'm going to begin with "Da Blues"


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vinm6KMlFkA


I don't mean the Delta Blues, but that hip New York kind of blues; that's the kind Mary Lou liked; sounds so good to me. Now we go to "African Cookbook".

Music Review by Scott Yanow
When African Cookbook was recorded in 1964, pianist Randy Weston had no luck interesting any label to release the music, so he came out with it independently on his tiny Bakton company. In 1972, Atlantic released the performances. It is surprising that no company in the mid-'60s signed Weston, because "Willie's Tune," from this set, had the potential to catch on, and "Berkshire Blues" is somewhat well-known and the mixture of accessible bop with African rhythms overall is appealing. Trumpeter Ray Copeland was responsible for the arrangements while Weston contributed all but one of the songs. Copeland and the great tenor Booker Ervin have their share of solo space, bassist Vishnu Wood and drummer Lenny McBrowne are fine in support, and on three numbers the percussion of Big Black and Sir Harold Murray are added; Big Black also sings on "Congolese Children." An excellent outing.

Now it's apparent why I know so little about this great artist; he couldn't get anybody to record his music. We gonna see what "African Cookbook" sounds like.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sda6b_0Kiak


It's getting off to a real good start. "Music soothes the savage beast", and calm's the restless mind. Rok, are you ready to explore Randy?


Enjoy the music.

I have this one, and I wore it out a long time ago. Hugh Masekela straight from the jungle, "Tell em About The Sorcerer". I like his visions of Africa; he tells about crossing the Sahara by camel caravan, and I can visualize humping across the desert on a camel (with a beautiful lady of course) that's the only way to travel if you're going to cross the Sahara.


                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opez_G-VG_w


Here's another one from long ago that he's famous for, "Stimela"; this is supposed to be the best version.


                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyFFCAEWY4w


Enjoy the music.

Today's Listen:

Duke Ellington -- NEW ORLEANS SUITE

There is just something that's just so right about Ellington giving us his take on New Orleans.  The cover art has the perfect effect.  Looking down from Mount Olympus??

This was recorded a few days after the death of Johnny Hodges.  He joined Ellington in 1928.  Died in 1970.  That's 42 years with the band. Most guys these days can't stay together for 40 days.

Wild Bill Davis on Organ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=890IdiOOVKM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRgbBsby_qg 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdL5h5vWeTk 

On the Atlantic Masters label.  The notes list other albums in the Atlantic Masters series, including:
Herbie Hancock's --- FAT ALBERT ROTUNDA  hahhahhaha
The People Rest.

Under the heading of  "Signs of the Times", This album came in second in the Downbeat best Jazz album of 1971 poll.  Sandwiched between
Weather Report and Miles' Jack Johnson.   There will be a reckoning someday.

These clips may sound 'funny' to some.  Fear not, it's just real Jazz.  It won't harm you.

Cheers

Keeping the Flame of New Orleans alive in present day America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlMDR9bLeQM

I know The Duke are Pops are smiling.

Cheers

Rok, so called "bashers" of Wynton Marsalis never said he couldn't blow the trumpet; he could arguably be the best, but when he's confronted with a blank sheet of paper, and he has to write some jazz notes on it, that's where his weakness shows up.

Although that's never been my favorite genre of jazz, I'm positive Wynton is one of the best.


Enjoy the music.

Duke Ellington "Thanks For The Beautiful Land On The Delta" certainly had the spirit of "Nawlins" and the Duke. I went through basic training with a guy named "Petre" from "Nawlins"; he taught me the proper pronunciation of his city; he was quite a character.  I'm sure he would have enjoyed everything you've posted immensely.


Enjoy the music.

***** Now it's apparent why I know so little about this great artist; he couldn't get anybody to record his music. *****


aaugh!!!!

Well, I have 9 CDs by Weston.  One big difference between the ones I have and the one you posted, is the album cover art.  In the days of pre-internet, I would not buy "African Cookbook" based on the cover art alone.

All of my CDs look 'serious', with titles like 'Plays Ellington' and 'Plays monk'.  I do have volcano blues.

Maskekela:

I think 'Stimela' is on every album this man has ever recorded. He is my favorite player from Africa and maybe the best player on Flugelhorn ever / anywhere!!!   His music is always easy on the ears.  He also has a terrific voice.   Excellent, dare I say it, Fusion, of western and African music.

I will post my Weston later.

Cheers

There are so many versions of "Stimela", I lost count. I just posted that for the newbies. Based on the cover art; how did you ever buy any fusion?

I'm going to pursue Randy Weston until I get to the end of the line. Post your favorites by him.


Enjoy the music.

Been absent, rough period personally, now cought up, read few last pages that I missed.
Rok, you made my smile (havent done that for days) couple of times, thank you. Keep using what ever you are taking, just tell me what is the name of the stuff.
Orpheus, saw Randy Weston alive, at the end of 90's, still I like his earlier work, like this album from 1956.

https://youtu.be/zze3gaTl8yM

Frogman, suggestion for a year 1978. I would not call it a fusion,( its stated as avangarde/fusion) and the album is called 'New direction'...
I belleive that even fusion 'haters' will like this song

https://youtu.be/YVjX1EhNbLw

Lester Bowie is certainly a fine trumpet player, maybe somebody can share if has any good albums of him?

Just to add the word to ever lasting discussion, Frogman, for me, much likings of some music depends of a tone of some particular player and the sound of his instrument.
 I would not go in details now, but there are some very acomplished players whose albums I dont have, because I dont like the tone/sound of their instrument.
From some others, I feel like I could listen random notes or accords and still like it.
 Some of the music that its been disscused here recently, just does not have the 'sound' that I might like. I dont know if somebdy else tryed to explain it this way and certainly since english is not my native language I may loose some true meaning of the words I want to say.
I can follow the idea behind the music  and I can admire the execution of it, but I very much miss the tone/sound that I might like...
Still, trying to keep the open mind for a moment in time when this could change...

Today's Randy Weston:

Randy Weston -- AFRICAN SUNRISE (selections from the Spirits of our Ancestors)

This is a CD comprised of tracks taken from the 2 CD set 'Spirits of Our Ancestors'.  But these clips are off the youtube  posting of "Spirits"

I heard more Monk than Africa.  I liked these two best, but I like it all. Dizzy Gillespie and Pharoah Sanders are special guests.  

Arrangements by  Melba Liston. She and Randy have done quite of few albums together.   She arranges and plays Trombone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie6WT8JaDfs  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URkLE6GerP0 

Cheers

Alex, these times have brought about an epidemic of rough personal problems; so common they are with me, it's how I know I'm alive.

Right now I'm listening to Randy Weston and Cecil Payne; they're so down to earth, this music is smooth and easy, the kind I could spend hours listening to.

The most interesting thing about music is how it takes on a life of it's own each time a different person hears it. While the original creator intended for it to take on a particular meaning, when someone else hears it, the music can take on a different even more interesting meaning than the original creator intended.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, this is my kind of jazz, it resonates with me totally. Frogman never understood how important my bright yellow double knit trousers with the low waist and very wide cuffs were in relation to the music at that same time. I thought those trousers were hot stuff at "that time", and there is a possibility he could have thought the same thing at "that time". I'm certain I thought the fusion he presented was hot stuff at "that time", because I bought it; but now his fusion and my bright yellow, double knit trousers with the low waist and wide cuffs, occupy the same place in my opinion WTF. (maybe his fusion rates higher than my trousers)




Enjoy the music.

Still in 1976….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7VxvMLz1kI

Rok, I was going to a class in Chicago with a guy from Bedford Stuyvesant, and when we rode past some of the worst slums in Chicago, he said they looked like the high rent district compared to Bed Sty as he called it. I'm sure he was exaggerating, but we wont know for sure until the Frogman weighs in.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, I can certainly understand why you have so many CD's by Randy Weston. I can also understand how so much jazz has bypassed me in St. Louis. The only time I was really up to date was in the 50's when all those jazz giants were still alive and the record stores had all their music.

As time went by New York was one of the few places that kept up with the top jazz musicians; St. Louis was a blues town.

Now that we have so many different ways of discovering the top jazz musicians that we missed, I don't have the money or the time to spend on fusion; nothing personal Frogman.



Enjoy the music.

Weston  said in the notes that the South Bronx or Bed Sty, where he lived,  reminded him of an African village!!   YIKES!!!!   Hence the name of the tune.

Cheers

Full Disclosure:

I own 4 Weather Report LPs, 2 Al Di Meola LPs, and 2 Pat Metheny LPs, 

The good news is, I don't have an operational turntable.   

All these were purchased in Europe, where often times the good stuff was hard to find.

A load has been lifted.

Cheers

The good news is your in the right place to correct that. 

Fusion 1975.  Dizzy Gillespie & Machito

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DM1nYwfmsc

Acman, I own that one plus quite a few others by Al Di Meola; I don't know why, but they sounded better when a very good friend of mine came over with medicinal herbs for my bad back, although when I get in a nostalgic mood, they still sound pretty good.

This was "Da bomb"; "Visions of The Emerald Green Beyond"


                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CQJd7Y6sO8


You have to listen to this one all the way through, I guarantee it will alter your mood.



Enjoy the music.

Rok, I got Lee Morgan, this collection had many tunes by Lee Morgan that I never heard before, he had jazz in his bones; I've seen one other musician like this, I'm talking about when they play their instrument, jazz comes out, that's the way Lee Morgan is, no matter what he plays, it's quite listenable. I think we both suspected this. If you're looking for all his best tunes, you can bypass this collection.


Enjoy the music.

Jzzmusician, you and Frogman are going to have to get together and clarify the definition of "Fusion"; now when you add "any" two different elements you're talking about "fusion", but it took on a different meaning when referring to music. Are you saying this is that "fusion"?

Although I like the music, this "fusion" thing is a little hazy, unless you are talking about the kind of fusion Diz is famous for.



Enjoy the music.

o10,

Dizzy was instrumental with fusing Afro-Cuban rhythms with jazz and that's why I posted it.  I realize that the type of fusion we're discussing refers to a different type of genre but at the same time I thought it would be interesting to visit a type of fusion that started, I think sometime in the 40's and is now widely accepted.

Just a different perspective.

Bob

Jzzmusician, I have no problem with that, but I'm curious to hear what Frogman has to say about you stealing his word "Fusion".

I'LL have to add that one to my collection.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, this is the ultimate "Miriam Makeba". I have LP, don't think it's available in CD, but I haven't searched. It was recorded in 1960 when her voice was young and fresh.


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam_Makeba_(album)


Enjoy the music