Looked for "San Lorenzo" studio version but couldn't find it on YT. This live version (1977) is somewhat similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAlyWSAxNZ8Yes, this is one of the group's "mood music" pieces, but so what? Those who dismiss Metheny and Mays that way have usually never heard the considerable amount of straight-ahead and avant-garde jazz they recorded. Pat and Lyles were great jazz musicians. |
pjw, thanks for calling my attention to Lyle Mays' work outside of the PMG. I always appreciated his playing with Pat. His solo on "San Lorenzo" (first cut on "Pat Metheny Group") is simply beautiful. I loved hearing it 40 years ago and still feel the same now.
Now I will start checking out his other work. Thanks again!
|
I know I am getting redundant with the Lyle Mays posts but as I have researched it is really not a coincidence that many of the biggest names in jazz hold Lyle in such high regard. Lyle’s first touring gig was with the Woody Herman Big Band. Yes THAT Woody Herman. Lyle won total 11 Grammy awards and was nominated 23 times. In the following video, bass player extraordinaire Mark Egan talks about how Lyle could emulate and play anything some of the great jazz pianists played and sound just like them. Lyle would say "This is how Bud Powell would play it" and "Here’s Bill Evan’s take on it" Egan calls Lyle a "genius" and then states he uses that term very rarely. Mark Egan tribute to Lyle Mays - YouTube Lyle playing keyboards in the Woody Herman Big Band live in Warsaw 1991:
McArthur Park - YouTube
And Lyle on the keyboards/synth with Bobby McFerrin 1990:
Common Threads - YouTube
|
Loved the Slatko “Lyle Mays” videos, pjw. Hadn’t seen those. Really great stuff; fantastic analysis. Thanks a lot!
|
Huh?! The denial that these sonic nuances in the sounds of gear do exist becomes dogma and they are often not even willing to try or experiment to see (hear) for themselves. The danger in generalizations.
Frogman I agree with you on all you have stated and I have learned the hard way to always keep an open mind, or, as my father would say, don't ever succumb to "tunnel vision" and be able to "think outside the box" However keeping an open mind with expensive audio gear also means keeping an "OPEN WALLET!!" |
Ryan Slatko, the author and poster of the 3 Lyle Mays videos I posted above is a gifted pianist himself. His debut album was released 3 years ago and, after I listened to a few of his original compositions on YouTube I ordered the album. It is most definitely straight ahead "old school" jazz played by a group of young jazz musicians from today and the band is tight.
Green Ceiling - YouTube
Waltz for Monk - YouTube
In the following video Ryan explains what inspired him to compose the song titled "Green Ceiling"
Green Ceiling: Behind First Impressions - YouTube
|
Hey frog you wrote your reply as I was writing the above post. Perhaps when you have time you might listen to the videos above. Have a great day!
|
|
Never forgotten, pjw; just a quick diversion.
As usual, the real problems are ego and generalities. The ego of those who cannot accept that some are able to hear, or, ARE OPEN TO HEARING, nuances that they can’t, or, SIMPLY WON’T. So, anyone who because of open mindedness, experience and/or training does hear and appreciates those nuances is deemed delusional and lumped in with those who are, in fact, clueless....the gear jocks. Then, for the “icing on the cake”, because they are PREDISPOSED TO NOT HEARING, or simply can’t hear these nuances, they fall back on the idea that they are more virtuous as music lovers. They then again lump those who balance the two pursuits in a reasonable and wide eyed manner with those who care more about gear than the music. Curiously and ironically, they also tend to be the ones who can’t bear to listen to sonically poor recordings (such as early Bird recordings) simply for the sake of the music. Huh?! The denial that these sonic nuances in the sounds of gear do exist becomes dogma and they are often not even willing to try or experiment to see (hear) for themselves. The danger in generalizations.
Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to do with your travels in audiophile land. As I said in my first response to this, I have never felt that it is a necessary pursuit for a music lover such as yourself, but it can definitely lead to a clearer window into the music when done intelligently and kept in the right perspective.
Lyle Mays:
Great player. Like the recently discussed musical relationship between Charlie Rouse and Monk, he was the perfect piano player and complement for Pat Metheny. Excellent piano player with chops galore and a great improviser with a musical sensibility that was not overtly steeped in the Blues....just like Metheny. For some, that is a deal breaker; not for me. Strong parallel to the discussion about audio: “If the Blues doesn’t hit you squarely in the face, if it doesn’t sound *bluesy*, then it is not Jazz”, some say. Wrong! The blues content can be more subtle and nuanced within an overall sensibility more representative of the (modern) times. I like his playing very much. Sad that he is gone.
|
Marija FWIW I do believe that cables can make a difference and that it also depends on what other gear they are connected to. I also believe that a lot of people have been duped out of money in their quest for higher fidelity. BTW Marija what do you think of the late pianist Lyle Mays? Do you like his large catalog of composing and recording collaborations with guitarist Pat Metheny or the more straight ahead jazz music that, IMHO, he did not make enough of the latter sessions? Lyle Mays composed and recorded 14 albums with Pat Metheny and I would say they were co - leaders on these sessions. Lyle composed the bulk of the scores on them. Its challenging music but I do listen to the handful of discs I have when I’m in the mood - and you could call it mood music. Two with Pat Metheny: The Way Up - Pat Metheny Group - (Full Album) - YouTube As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls - YouTube A beautiful song Lyle wrote for most likely his main influence when it came to jazz as opposed to classical on the album Fictionary: Lyle Mays - Bill Evans - YouTube Another great one from the album Fictionary and also the title track for the album: Lyle Mays - Fictionary - YouTubeAnd two more from the Ludwigsburg concert. Au Lait - YouTube August - YouTube A lot of classical can be heard in Lyle’s playing. |
I want to thank frogman, rok and keegiam for their input on the audio gear.
Again, just like 13 months ago, Lyle Mays got lost and forgotten while the audio gear debate got heated.
Frogman and others what is your opinion on Lyle Mays?
|
Human Hearing:
Compared to the other species of Class Mammalia, Humans can’t hear Jack!!!
They can’t ’hear’ Lions and other big cats moving towards them in the grass. Can’t see or smell them either. When it comes to the senses, we are pathetic!!
If it weren’t for other mammals that CAN hear, see and smell, we probably wouldn’t be here today. When they alerted, at least we had the good sense to run when they ran.
Enter, ’Audiophiles.’ Now we can ’hear’ the difference between a tone at 12000 hertz, and one at 12001 hertz. Wow, must be that evolution thingy.
A Joke, sort of:
An "audiophile" is on an African Safari. During a break, he falls asleep in the grass while soaking up some sun. He is awaken by the sound "Mee-ow, Mee-ow." He thinks "kitty cat." He is an "audiophile," so he knows his sounds. So he raises up and SEES a full grown male Lion coming his way. Every few steps, the cat stops and goes, Mee-ow, Mee-ow.
Whatcha gon do? Believe your lying eyes, or your "audiophile trained ears?"
A music lover, or any other normal person will say. "holy s**t, followed by "footes don’t fail me now"
An "audiophile" will clap his hands and say very loudly, "Here Kitty, kitty, Here Kitty kitty.
That’s why there are so few of them today.
Cheers Aahah, I almost spit out all my coffee when I saw this, could not stop laughing! National Geographic cartoon on jazz aff. Priceless |
|
Rok, you don't get it.
I get it. I am not speaking of Audiophiles and their objectives, I am speaking of the people who dupe, swindle, cheat and defraud them. Cheers |
Nice performance by Stanley Clarke with his quartet featuring Hiromi Uehara on piano. Warning: no woodwinds or brass included. Two keyboards, bass and drums. I am consistently blown away by Hiromi's talent and exuberance. A total joy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaxNsv3oPik |
Rok, you don't get it.
We're human, and we hear live music with the hearing we're stuck with. All we want of our audio systems is to present performances with the most true-to-life recreation possible.
It doesn't matter how a dog hears or how a tiger hears. The point is to bring what we would hear if we were at the performance into our homes. Just deliver, through audio gear and the recording, the same experience as if we were present at the performance. That is, in my view, an audiophile's ultimate goal.
|
In order to judge any amp we have to have a standard. A holy grail, so to speak. Any half ass good engineer can screw around with the Freq response and make an amp sound a certain way. But what is the Goal? The objective? The standard?
I think it’s, "the perfect amp is a straight piece of wire with gain." That statement itself says that the wire adds or takes away NOTHING.
Perfect amps don’t exist. So we get as close as possible. Which SHOULD show up in the measurements.
I’m sure the very wealthy boy geniuses in their garage workshops, would beg to disagree.
Ever notice how none of the charlatans ever claim any performance characteristics for their wire? What is it suppose to do? Describe the "improvement" you are suppose to hear. Do you have to try all 6 billion brands and models until you hit pay dirt? Just asking.
Cheers
|
“Disgraceful” ? Give me break. Anyone claiming to be an authority who says that all amplifiers sound the same is, yes, a hack.
Good night all 😌 |
|
Btw, Rok will disagree, but Peter Aczel was a hack who obviously had no ears. Denier of anything that could not be “proven” with measurements instead of using one’s ears. Personally, I wouldn’t think twice about anything he had to say. This is a disgraceful thing to say about Peter. The guys at Stereo Review and the other early magazines created this"hobby." Back in the day it was for music lovers. They made their systems themselves. Including the speaker. Then they were destroyed professionally by people with more money than brains. I remember Julian being ’forced’ to ’admit’ that each amp had it’s own distinct sound. That was the beginning. Then the flood gates burst, as charlatans realized that all you have to do is establish the principle, that "if I say I can hear it, it’s true, and if you can’t, you just can’t hear." Remember the Emperor and his clothes? The whole thing was shameful, and will stain this ’hobby’ forever. Cheers |
**** When it comes to the senses, we are pathetic!! ****
Speak for yourself. You know, it’s curious, for someone who is so anti-audiophile you have brought up the subject of gear far more than anyone else here. Btw, I think you blew your punchline 😊 |
Human Hearing:
Compared to the other species of Class Mammalia, Humans can’t hear Jack!!!
They can’t ’hear’ Lions and other big cats moving towards them in the grass. Can’t see or smell them either. When it comes to the senses, we are pathetic!!
If it weren’t for other mammals that CAN hear, see and smell, we probably wouldn’t be here today. When they alerted, at least we had the good sense to run when they ran.
Enter, ’Audiophiles.’ Now we can ’hear’ the difference between a tone at 12000 hertz, and one at 12001 hertz. Wow, must be that evolution thingy.
A Joke, sort of:
An "audiophile" is on an African Safari. During a break, he falls asleep in the grass while soaking up some sun. He is awaken by the sound "Mee-ow, Mee-ow." He thinks "kitty cat." He is an "audiophile," so he knows his sounds. So he raises up and SEES a full grown male Lion coming his way. Every few steps, the cat stops and goes, Mee-ow, Mee-ow.
Whatcha gon do? Believe your lying eyes, or your "audiophile trained ears?"
A music lover, or any other normal person will say. "holy s**t, followed by "footes don’t fail me now"
An "audiophile" will clap his hands and say very loudly, "Here Kitty, kitty, Here Kitty kitty.
That’s why there are so few of them today.
Cheers |
Pjw, if I may offer a bit of advice. Whatever you do, don’t change cabling and add a power conditioner at the same time. You think some of this stuff gets confusing? Rule of thumb: change only one variable at a time.
Power conditioners can be great, but much depends on the quality of the AC coming out of your wall. The cleaner and more stable it is, the less improvement you are likely to get. Are you in an apt. building? Are you in an area with a lot of industrial buildings? If you are in a quiet residential area, the cleaner your power will likely be. Re cables:
As you probably already know, you will get or read many different opinions. A cable that is good with a particular amp and set of speakers may not be good in another setup. Some experimentation is almost inevitable. If you love the sound of your system as is, then you probably need go no further. Ask yourself: Are there times when you say to yourself, I wish I had a little more bass? Or, why does the bass sound too thick and slow too much of the time? Why does my system sound a little bright and harsh on a lot of cds? Etc. Then, read reviews and commentary and look for consistent descriptions of the sound of the various cables and narrow your choices according to what traits match what you would like to improve in your own system. Cables will react differently in different systems, but there are often consistent traits that carry over to most systems they are in.
You are just getting your feet wet with all this. I would call AudioAdvisor and talk to the guys there. Tell them what gear you have and what kind of sound you like. They carry Audioquest and Kimber cables that have been around for a long time and keep being improved. They are good, solid cables that won’t break the bank and AA often has close outs on those and others. They have a 30 day return policy if you don’t like them. That might be a good place to start before getting into the more exotic stuff.
Good luck and have fun.
Btw, Rok will disagree, but Peter Aczel was a hack who obviously had no ears. Denier of anything that could not be “proven” with measurements instead of using one’s ears. Personally, I wouldn’t think twice about anything he had to say. |
Lyle Mays passed away 13 months ago on February 10, 2020. As I went back to that month some of the members including me were also involved in a discussion about audio gear including cables. I found a post from rok here The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio - ecoustics.comAnyway getting back to Lyle Mays jafant first posted RIP which was followed by a couple Lyle Mays videos by acman and nothing more. I had posted material from the Lyle Mays 2 disc set the Ludwigsburg Concert many months prior to that and nobody responded but even I did not respond to his death. Maybe subconsciously I was thinking nobody likes him anyway who knows/cares? Getting to the point I wish Lyle Mays had taken more time away from his collaborations with Pat Metheny and did more acoustic music in a trio setting without the electric keyboards and synths. Besides the Ludwigsburg concert I have Mays’ fictionary which is a trio with Jack DeJohnette and Marc Johnson. These 2 albums with Mays on acoustic piano are probably the only ones that show how gifted he truly was. Mays, IMHO, is one of the greatest jazz pianist and composers to ever play the ivory. A true virtuoso. I guess he enjoyed composing and "noodling around" with Metheny on all those technically crazy albums with 23/9 times..... Fictionary - YouTube Lyle Mays - Lincoln Reviews His Notes - YouTube |
|
|
|
Skeptical until I heard the difference in my own system
ghosthouse if you don't mind could you tell me what power conditioner and cables you use? |
|
I'd like to add support for "cables matter" and shockingly (couldn't resist the pun) that includes power cords. This is from a former "wire skeptic" who was especially skeptical about power cord claims. Skeptical until I heard the difference in my own system. Yes, certainly, someone can pay "stupid" money for wire but that's not absolutely essential for realizing a sonic improvement over the typical as-supplied cables. |
I will just add (since Mary mentioned me) that in my experience cables do matter much,in fact so much that I ve heard systems which were 'ruined' by poor choice of cables.
The thing that is even more 'funny' is that power cables are very important as well, as much as that could be laughable to people who have proper education in electronic field, or to ones that do not have hi fi system.
Since the market is the 'king' arguing why something cost so much is pointless (personally I agree that some prices are not 'justified')
But, everyone makes his own choices and for that there is no better quote than from legendary soccer player George Best:
'I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered'
|
|
Nice gear, pjw; I’m sure it sounds good. I hear you about spending as much for the cables as for the speakers. You don’t have to, if you’re willing to buy used. Actually, you don’t have to at all as I’m sure the sound you have now is good; but ........ Notice Keegiam’s experience buying used.
If you decide to experiment, I would encourage you to try upgrading your interconnects first. My experience has been that with cable upgrades it is usually best to start closer to the source and then move downstream . You may decide that the improvement is not worth it. Tell you what, I have a couple of pairs of unused IC’s. Not for sale, but if you want to try them and see what decent interconnect cables can do between CD player and amp, PM me and I’ll send them to you. Try them and see, then send them back to me. Let me know.
Edit: as I think about it, since you have a surround setup it probably means that you use multiple IC’s. Can’t help with that , but I can tell you that I bought a set of lower end Siltech cables for my 5.1 Video surround for only a couple of hundred bucks and they were a very nice upgrade from the cheapies that come in the box. |
frogman I use all solid state gear. Yamaha high end AVR, Emotiva XPA 2 amp for the front R and L. and JBL Studio series speakers front, center surrounds and dual JBL Studio L 8400P subwoofers. at minus 20 db the walls shake. Regular 14 gauge speaker wire from Monoprice :(( My power strip is from Monster Cable. The subs have a dedicated wall outlet as does the amplifier. When your amp cost 1,000 its hard to swallow buying cables for the same price. XPA-2 Gen3 2 Channel Audiophile Power Amplifier – Emotiva Audio Corporation I use an Oppo UDP 203 universal disc player. |
|
|
|
|
*****As a side note, good system should maintain its character when listened to from another room.*****
Good systems are absolutely convincing in other rooms, or even outside of the building. One day I was playing a Sonny Rollins album at realistic volume with the windows open, and my neighbor later asked if I played sax (which he does). If a musician feels that he's hearing live music that's actually being reproduced by an audio system, that's a good sign.
|
Agree on that. Good night inna! |
One more point regarding bloody cables. Sometimes, but not always, much more expensive old cables are worse overall than modern cables. There has been a progress. I had $120 modern cable outperform $500 old cable. But it did not outperform $1200 old cable. |
Anyway, it is 4 am in the morning here, have to get back to sleep. Good night frog!
|
I can't draw line, I am talking about extreme prices. Me not judging either, production must never stop. :---) I did have a chance to listen music on the expensive systems (not mine) but did not ask for the price... |
No, I have not done blind tests with $7K cables, but I have heard comparisons of even more expensive cables in some very high end systems (not mine) and I assure you that they can make substantial differences and improvement. That is not to say that all $7K cables are good; not at all. Some are not nearly as good as far less expensive ones; but some are far better. Btw, on what basis do you draw the line at $1K or $2K?
Yes, it gets more than funny; outrageous, actually. But, I don’t judge how people choose to spend their money. I am at peace with how I spend mine.
Btw, gold is not a great conductor. |
You have no idea how caves are terrible. I need so many blankets to adjust the sound, meaning to absorb it at some points. :---)
I wonder why Alex haven’t posted about this to tell me, among other things, how wrong I am.
My point is, again, that after some level, it tends to get funny with the gear price. Meaning the cable thing.
Here in Croatia, the pizza restaurant with the golden pizza has recently opened. Yep, pizza with gold. Maybe that cable is covered with gold too. |
I’ll take that blind test any day of the week. Actually, I have on a couple of occasions and have proven the point.
Well, I do not want to question your sayings but you haven't written that you actually did a blind test with 7000 usd worth cable. Comparison between 100 usd and 1000 usd or even 2000 usd I do understand. |
Marija, that was an honest question; no offense meant. I like audio, but for me it is a distant second to the music.
There is no problem with what you say. To suggest a blind test implies that you don’t believe there is a difference. It may not make sense to you and I to spend that much, but the difference can be very real. If some one is fortunate enough to be able to spend, say, $80K or more on a fantastic audio system, $7K for the right cables makes a lot of sense. Btw, caves can have great acoustics. |
Please don’t misunderstand, I don’t believe that any of this is necessary to appreciate the recorded music, but it will surely enhance it. I did not say that it cannot enhance it, the point was that after certain level it does not make any sense. You can't tell me that you hear a difference with 7000 worth cable. Ok, you can but it is just that I choose not to trust that. Where is the problem with that? :---)) |
Sorry I missed that two weeks ago, pjw. Great stuff.
Re Kevin Deal: no, that was the first of his videos that I watched. I did buy a set of tubes from him a couple of years ago for my Manley monos. Sixteen of them; tubes, that is 😊. Ouch! I do use a PS Audio power regenerator and that makes a nice difference as well.
Re cables: You may have noticed that I generally don’t get involved in audio talk here. For me, that’s the hobby part of music listening and I keep it separate from the more important music to a large extent. However, it can add a great deal to the enjoyment of the music. What do you use for an amplifier and for CD player and what are you using for cables now? I might start by trying a couple of different interconnects between CD player and amplifier/receiver to see what kind of difference the right cables can make.
|
Out of curiosity, have you ever heard a great, intelligently assembled audio system? Nope, I live in a cave, therefore never heard of it. |
