I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
PMs are entirely fine. Sharing contact info is the no no.
We use private messaging all the time on this site.
I’m mystified as to why you cannot access PMs, but I’m admittedly not very computer literate.
I will respond to your question re: what I listen to, besides Jazz. Mostly acoustic genres: singer-songwriter, Americana, Folk, Celtic, Newgrass. These days, the lines between such genres are growing increasingly blurred. My current favorite relatively recent acquisition is Aoife O’Donovan’s "The Magic Hour".
I’ll listen to Blues, Country (not the slick Nashville Pop with cowboy hats stuff) and classic Rock, as well.
I’ve barely dipped my toe into Classical solo piano and would like to further explore the genre but it can be so time consuming comparing different versions of a particular Classical work in order to decide which to buy and I have to be in the right mood for Classical, which, admittedly, doesn’t occur very often.
Another acoustic genre is the ECM sound, a more European take on Jazz with Classical, avant garde, European Folk and other ethnic influences. Similarly, I enjoy the group Oregon. I also like John McLaughlin’s acoustic work including My Goals Beyond, Extrapolation, Shakti and the trio with Al di Meola and Paco de Lucia. I could go on but I’ll call this enough for now.
I wouldn't worry about the slightly off topic banter. Glad to see people having a good time. We've all gone off topic from time to time. You are at least talking about music.
stuartk, I poked around under "my profile." Apparently I am supposed to have my private messages turned on, but the post about how to do that was removed by the moderator. Think we're not supposed to email each other.
Perhaps it shows up differently on different devices.
The Ken Burns video is, in my opinion, somewhat flawed in that he spent a disproportionate amount of time on early Jazz then rushed through subsequent eras/styles in much less detail. Still worth seeing but in my estimation, a rather lopsided presentation, as a whole.
Briefly, on two other topics 1) for better or for worse, I prefer physical media and
2) I have a 5 cd set of Debussy solo piano works by Bavouzet and a single disc of Debussy Etudes by Uchida.
For anyone who has not seen Ken Burns 19 hour series on the history of jazz, I highly recommend it. It can be streamed on PBS. It's worth joining PBS for a month to watch it. You see jazz at its inception going chronologically to more modern jazz.
stuartk, I agree. I do not want to hijack this thread. I see no PM at the top of my screen, however. I have gone to the beginning of the thread to see if it's on the first page and on the end of the thread where we're talking. I see no PM on either.
I bought a Moon 280D recently for $4k. It's so good, I simply don't play any of my 1200 CDs anymore. If you wanted to splurge, I saw one used on eBay for $1500. It will literally make your CDs and your CD player something of the past. It has an interface on your phone or Ipad and you can pull up artists or albums or whatever really easily. My nextdoor neighbor is Greek and when he saw it he said it won't pull up world music. He couldn't come up with one Greek artist that wasn't on there. The abundance of music, however, is a function of Qobuz.
stuartk, Cambridge Audio also makes a Dacmagic 200 for $399. It is both a headphone amp and will plug into your stereo. You can't do both at once, but who wants to? Again, you could use your computer as a front end interface for spotify, Tidal, or Qobuz. I don't know how many CDs you buy, but depending on how good your CD player is, you probably won't need to with this rig.
Stuartk, try to find Debussy's Preludes and Images for piano. Many people think that Arturo Benedetti is the best pianist for this. He is brilliant and exacting. Pierre-Laurent Aimard has a bit more emotion. Phillipe Entremont leans into emotion. Perhaps the best interpreter is Walter Gieseking, but he died long ago before modern recordings, yet I find his CDs to be fine. You can even buy a CD of Debussy playing some of his own music which he recorded on piano roll. If you could find an inexpensive set of Gieseking playing Debussy's piano works (5 CDs), I'd go for it. I don't think anyone is considered to be better than him. He may have even studied with Debussy. I can't remember.
stuartk, I don't know what a PM is. Sorry, although I worked in the computer industry for many years, I left it around 2,000, and I fall behind.
Spotify is streaming and has a lot of music. Qobuz has more classical music and jazz, I think, but I don't know for sure. I don't know how good your audio rig is, so I don't know if you'd hear the higher quality of Qobuz. On my stereo it blows away CDs and anything else but vinyl. If you don't care about that, then see if you can find all the jazz and classical you want on spotify.
I am now listening to Wayne Shorter's last album "Live at the Detroit Jazz Festival" at 96 khz, more than double the resolution of a CD. I chose that Wayne Shorter album because it has Esperanza Spaulding, a force of nature. It's quite abstract and I don't know how abstract you like music. I have a feeling you might like this. Does spotify have it? If you wanted to dabble in Qobuz, you can buy a D/A converter at Schiit (in California) for $119. Pick up an audio USB cable and hook it to your computer with Qobuz. A pair of interconnects to your receiver or preamp or whatever and you're in business. At $10 a month you can see if you like it.
Listen to Mitsuko Uchida playing Schubert's Impromptus on youtube, and if you like it you can pick up the CD. I have heard so many pianists play it I can't count them all. To me, Uchida is the best. She can touch the keys with such a light, sparkling stroke it's amazing.
See if you can find Bartok's String Quartets. The 5th and 6th are his best. If you can get into Bartok, you've found a whole new universe.
stuartk, I left you a long post above but forgot to put your name on it. I am now listening to Judy Collins singing Dylan's Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues. One of my favorite all-time cuts.
In regards to your audio setup, I suggest your next purchase be a streamer that will both play through your stereo and offer a headphone jack. Then you can listen through a decent set of headphones. There are a number of reasonably priced streamers. My method of buying audio equipment has mostly been to read reviews and look for something used.
Why the streamer? When I, or anyone else, suggests an album, it will 99% likely be on Qobuz or Tidal. You can also load Qobuz, which is now $10 a month, on a computer as an interface. People used to tell me about albums and I didn't want to lay out the cash to experiment. You suggested Wayne Shorter and I have probably found every album of consequence he's ever done on Qobuz. Too many for me to listen to.
On to music. I went to see The Dead a number of times in the sixties when I was going to Berkeley. I have one of their albums which I don't play often. I do, however, really like David Grisman. I have a album with him and Stephan Grapelli, who I saw live many, many years ago. Stephan Grapelli died in 1997. He was a member of the famous Django Rheinhardt Hot Club, an early French jazz band. Rheinhardt had three finger of his left hand (on the fret board) blown off in WWI, yet he was still considered one of the greatest jazz guitarists. Hot Dawg is another of David Grisman's albums I really like. He played "Dawg music."
There is a world of great young jazz singers. When somebody tells me about one, I jot down their name and head for Qobuz. That way I can listen to everything suggested to me. I absolutely do not want to get stuck in the past!
Regarding classical piano, I love Debussy. At times, he is very close to the best jazz. Another piece that I think is wonderful is Schubert's Impomptus. They are absolutely beautiful. If you poke around for it on youtube, I think you can find Mitsuko Uchida. She has the most wonderful touch. I have heard the Impomptus by many pianists, but she is my absolute favorite.
To clarify, if I had a dedicated room and the financial resources, I suspect my curiosity would most likely tempt me to explore the possibility of building a system whose presentation mimicked live music. I’m not fundamentally opposed to this but neither do I require such a presentation to be fully engrossed in music.
Some Jazz vocalists I enjoy: Tina May, Betty Carter, Jackie Ryan, Anita O’ Day, Sarah Vaughan, Helen Merrill, Sheila Jordan.
My listening tastes...
Besides Jazz from 50’s to present day, I listen to a Classic Rock, Country, Blues, Old School Americana (The Band, G. Dead, etc. Classical solo piano (a new avenue of exploration for me) and a range of acoustic music from past and present that includes Newgrass, Celtic, singer-songwriter, Bluegrass, Folk (American and UK), and various blends of these genres.
I tend to be album-focused rather than artist-focused and it’s not at all uncommon for me to own only one recording by a particular artist. An example is Aifoe O’ Donovan. I adore her "in the Magic Hour" but to me, everything else I’ve heard by her pales by comparison.
Fair enough about "live" music. I listened to music on a $100 Sears Silvertone stereo in college and enjoyed it well enough. I am sure there are faults I overlook in my system, although it sounds close to live to me and my friends, who aren't really audiophiles. It's taken me many years to cobble together a good system. A recent inheritance put me at a different level, but it was at best mid-fi most of my life.
I enjoy both Krall and Barber, but I listen to many more female jazz vocalists than that. Cassandra Wilson is one of my favorites. Her album Traveling Miles is exceptional. I also like Morgana King from way back when. I have an album of Teresa Brewer singing with Stephan Grapelli. And then there are the Brazilian singers of which I have more than I can now name.
I'm quite ecletic as you have probably figured out. I've liked the Wayne Shorter I've been playing for the last couple of days, but I broke it up with an interlude of Paul Simon's Rhythm of the Saints.
I'm curious. What else do you listen to but jazz? Classical? Rock? I find elements of jazz in both.
I only mentioned D. Krall because there seem to be many audiophiles whose "collection" of/familiarity with, Jazz singers is limited to these two artists. Please don’t interpret this as anything directed at you, personally.
I’m familiar with "live music" being the preferred baseline for building systems but I haven’t heard such a system. What I’ve heard are systems that present recordings differently. The music has always sounded like recorded music, not live music. And that’s not an issue for me. This doesn’t mean that I don’t care about sonics. Sloppy bass, dry mids, fatiguing highs are examples of issues that distract me from focusing upon the music. If I’m emotionally and physically engaged, then I’m OK with "good enough". I don’t have a dedicated room, anyway, so from a practical point of view, it wouldn’t make much sense to strive for "you are at the venue" sonics.
stuartk, BTW I don't think Patricia Barber and Diana Krall are equivalent, although I like them both. Diana Krall has some of the best recorded CDs I've ever heard. It doesn't sound as though you care that much about reproduction, but it makes a difference when it sounds like the music is live. If you listen to Clique (you need to stream it on something better than youtube) and you wait until Barber is done singing, you'll hear some damn good piano work.
I turn on my turntable more and more because it sounds so much better than anything else. I am listening, however, to Wayne Shorter's Night Dreamer on Qobuz and it sounds very good. Better than a CD. Having a decent streamer is amazing.
stuartk, I think I'm getting an idea of what you might like. I thought of recommending Paul Desmond, but I have a feeling you've heard him and he doesn't have the complexity you're looking for. In that light, I might recommend Alice Coltrane and Pharoah Sanders. Sometimes Pharoah Sanders screams with his horn. A friend of mine called it dinosaur music. When Pharoah and Coltrane would scream back and forth like dinosaurs communicating from miles away. He doesn't always, though, and a deep soul comes through his horn. Journey in Satchidananda would be the one album I would suggest.
Well, you can always resort to youtube or spotify just to see whether you enjoy a particular album, irrespective of sonics.
I'm actually not much of a P. Barber fan, based upon what audiophile friends have played for me, so far. But then, I feel the same way about D. Krall. Heresy, I know... ;o)
Stuartk I’ve Qobuzzed all the Freddie Hubbard I can find. I like the two I have on album more than any others, which is a good thing. I’ve upgradded my rig lately and it sounds very good on vinyl. It’s difficult to listen to CDs and stream, although high sampling streaming does sound pretty good. I’ll check out your suggestions. Thanks.
You’ve probably probably listened to Patricia Barber. Her album Clique sounds better streaming than anything else I’ve heard streaming. I like her singing but she’s damn good when she just plays jazz piano.
In that case, check out Night Dreamer, Adam’s Apple and JuJu, as well. These are all pretty accessible. Etcetera is as personal favorite but may not be your cup of tea. Of course, Shorter was part of Miles’ "2nd Great Quintet".
The All Seeing Eye is pretty out there, avant garde. Odyssey of Iska and Moto Grosso Feio are long, spacy, meandering jams. I haven’t heard Schizophrenia and The Soothsayer in a long time and don’t remember them much. I’ve never heard Supernova. As you strean, you should be able to check these out. I'd still start with the initial three I mentioned, though.
RE: Hubbard, thanks. I’ve heard those. Have you heard Ready For Freddie, Breaking Point and Goin’ Up?
Stuartk, since Freddie Hubbard plays trumpet on Hear No Evil (great choice! Along with Herbie Hancock!) I will suggest a couple of Freddie Hubbard albums which are among my favorite jazz albums: Red Clay and First Light.
Stuartk, I listened to Wayne Shorter's Speak No Evil. Love it. I went to see what it would cost used on vinyl. I don't want remastered because it has been digitized and Qobuz has it at 192khz, which is close to vinyl and probably as good as remastered. A 1967 release of the album in M- condition is in the hundreds of dollars. Too much. I'll enjoy streaming it. Thanks for the suggestion.
Stuartk, in the sense you're talking about it's a bit like listening to classical music. I am now listening to a Ravel string quartet. Ravel incorporated jazz into his later classical pieces. He came to America to hear jazz. He and Debussy had a heavy influence on modern classical music. Bartok, one of my favorite composers, said he was most influenced by Debussy.
One of the problems I have with some of the jazz you're talking about is their lack of melody. They are often driven by rhythm, and there is a lack of what I would call a strong melodic hook. Perhaps I have not attuned my ear to their melodies. It took me years with many modern composers, like Shostakovitch whose piano concerto I'm now listening to. His melodies are a bit dissonent but they are there.
I think a lot of the older jazz musicians based their music on themes that were standards, like "My Favorite Things." Then the melody is not a problem. Of course, Coltrane comes up with some heavy-duty melodies in "A Love Supreme" and Miles Davis in "Kinda Blue." A good melody is very hard to find, though, and I think some intricate jazz pieces eschew a strong melody and base their music on structural intricacy and rhythmic drive. Those are more difficult for me to listen to.
For me, rhythm is very important when it comes to listening in general,. When it comes to Jazz, I want the strong sense of rhythm that is one of the strengths of the genre present, but I want to be able to focus first and foremost upon the melodic/harmonic improvisational aspects. I wouldn't call this cerebral, though. Thinking ismost definitely not what I want to be doing when listening to music!
stuartk, yes you're right about the fusion aspect of Flora Purim. But I like it. I think Tania Maria might also have some of that. I like music you want to dance to. I can also listen to more cerebral jazz, though. With Flora Purim see if you can find the album Encounter. It is very abstract to my ear, but maybe some fusion in places.
I don’t enjoy Rap for a variety of reasons. I haven’t listened to female rappers, so I don’t know whether they display a different perspective than the male rappers I’ve heard. To my ears, Rap sounds more like a spoken-word genre than music.
Brazilian music is an area I’d like to explore more deeply. My favorite Brazilian recording is Milton Nascimento’s Clube Da Esquina , which is, of course, not jazz.
You mentioned Flora Purim. I find much of her most popular work dated-sounding due to the Fusion influence that was dominant in the mid to late 70’s. However, I do enjoy her work in Chick Corea’s first, Latin-tinged Return to Forever group and her later "Perpetual Emotion’, which is in more of a mainstream Jazz vein.
Tyray, thanks for the Brazilian site. I'll check it out. I bought the Black Orpheus album when I was in high school in the early sixties. The film blew me away and then I went out and bought the album. I took it to college and played it all the time. That and Stravisnky's Firebird. I beat that album up pretty bad but I have a perfect copy in my collection now. I have a number of Elaine Elias CDs. But if you can, poke around, try to find Tania Maria. I think she'll blow you away. I heard her in L.A. a couple of times. You can't sit down and listen to her music. Another recording I'd recommend is Flora Purim's Encounter. I had that album for years and couldn't listen to it. It was too abstract for my ear. Then one day--boom--it hit me. I was totally into that s**t. I listen to her all the time when my wife isn't around. It's like nails scratching a blackboard to her. For Bossa Nova, the female voice that really gets to me is Maria Creuza. She's got this husky fragility that touches me. For the Salvador da Bahia music, try Maria Bethania. I have an album with her, Vinicius, and Toquinho in which they sing Samba Da Benacao which became famous in the French film A Man And A Woman, that famous samba you can't get out of your head once you've heard it.
stuartk, I think it's true for everybody that as we age our tastes tend to get frozen in time. I also try to resist this by going to concerts and hearing new things. I live in L.A., so there's plenty of music around. I also have granddaughters (twins) who just entered college and they introduce me to new pop music. And I also poke around the internet and that's how I found this forum. As you know, one of my loves is Brazillian music, and I have checked out new Brazilian groups, but a lot of it is rap related. To me, rap has little to no feminine side, and often tends toward misogyny. Explaining my resistance to the misogynistic would take a long time. You'll have to read my book when I finish it.
I’m an old guy and I’ve heard a lot of music, and I’ve come to a point where I like what I like.
What I’ve found is that, with age, it’s become more challenging to avoid being constrained by preferences developed over decades of listening. I don’t know whether this is inevitable or to what degree this may be circumvented but for me, at least, it’s a real issue. It’s become harder and harder to discover music that really grabs me. This is one reason I lurk around this thread. ;o)
@jafant, Elaine Elias is new to me! I’m one of those ’gatos’ who got deep into not only music from the times of the 1959 movie Black Orpheus (Orfue Negro) 1959 Trailer but the even older historical music from the birthplace of Samba itself, Salvador da Bahia, Brazil. Oh I got it bad! Real bad!
@audio-b-dog, I have probably thousands of albums of Brazilian music on flac. I was trying to learn Portuguese by what I call ’the easy way’ by downloading (bootlegging?) music from Brazil and listening to it.
Actually here is the very site I got most of my Brazilian music from and it’s still active! Flabbergasted Vibes
P.S. I hope I haven’t taught you to much, to fast! We want you to come back...
Thank You for the Peter Bernstein reference. Signs of Life (2017) is on my radar, as I am , starting to scratch the surface on his catalog. Are you a fan of Elaine Elias?
Frogman, I meant no disrespect to Wynton Marsalis. I have recordings of him playing both jazz and classical music. And I was very impressed with his knowledge of jazz when he was interviewed in Ken Burns' great series on Jazz. I'm an old guy and I've heard a lot of music, and I've come to a point where I like what I like. I often tend toward 'abstract' jazz, John Coltrane, Pharoah Sanders, Flora Purim. At other times I like old-school jazz. I've been playing a lot of the album of Keith Jarrett and Charlie Haden playing standards. But I think you're right that I should express my views with more respect. And I will.
Ty Ray, a lot of the Brazillian jazz I own (on vinyl) was pressed in Brazil. I have old Wando albums from the sixties that were impossible to find in the U.S. Most, if not all, of my Tania Maria albums are from Brazil. I go fairly deep into Brazilian music. I would venture to say that you could spend a week at my house listening to my reocrdings of Brazilian music for ten hours a day and not get through it all. I know a bit about the different roots, but I don't lean toward history. I just like certain things and then maybe find out a bit about it. I even have recordings of Brazilian musicians who are still fairly young (in my book) like Luciana Souza. I went to hear her live several years ago.
But thank you folks for the welcome. I look forward to reading and learning.
@audio-b-dog, I may have felt the way you’ve felt when I first encountered this thread, but after awhile, slowly, I could not disavow the sheer musical talent and universal vibes of the artists shared here. The musical vibrations that my fellow members have shared here will never be recorded again. And what fascinates me the most of the music (played) posted here is, believe it or not is mostly "NEW" to me. And ain’t nothing like one of your partner’s introducing (turning you on!) you to new music! For example, if you click on @stuartk’s recent link:
You will see and notice - it is a small universe unto itself of music I and most here have never even heard of before! I had no idea when I came here that jazz was so bountiful! I thought it was a finite medium. Also keep in mind that most of us here have some very badass bosco audiophile grade rigs to which to reproduce these heavenly vibrations on wax, cd, reel to reel and even maybe streamer sometimes. So that has a lot to do with keeping this jazz vibe alive also
Now I see you claim to be a aficionado of the so called Brazilian jazz? Hmmm? But what I see is your machinations of ’Brazilian Jazz’ are really music that was recorded in and for and released in the US market.Do I have your attention now?
Again I say, believe it or not, if you care to look and delve into this thread, there is some ’show nuff’ made, written, produced, played, recorded, sung in Portuguese, and pressed in Brazil for Brazilian consumption, ’straight up’ Brazilian jazz (jazz Brasileiro) here in this very thread! That's if you care, or should I say dare to look! And then YOU will be introduced (tuned on!) to REAL Brazilian jazz...right here.
Surely if you comeback, and we all here hope you do, we will look forward to your posts and music that you can share with us, indeed. As someone here once told me, ’don’t be a stranger’... Tchau
stuartk, writing poetry was never difficult for me because I was bursting with something to say and I wanted very badly to say it. I studied with Gary Snyder and other notable poets, so I had a technical foundation.
Lucky you! Looking back, now, I regret not having tried to get into an MFA writing program but my life went in other directions (BA in studio art and an MA in Counseling Psych). My writing is getting better but largely working on my own, progress has been slow. I’m currently working with a mentor I found on The Brooklyn Poets’ "Bridge" site. BTW, like Snyder, I live in the Sierra Foothills.
I think it is very important to remember that one’s reaction to the amount of “emotionality” that a musician is perceived to express is very often as much a reflection of the listener as it is of the musician in question.
Words of wisdom. I suspect this recognition may be more difficult for those of us who naturally gravitate to players who are more emphatically effusive. ... But then, maybe not. I don’t think anyone would describe Bill Evans as effusive but his live V. Vanguard version of "My Foolish "heart" has always been a very emotive listening experience for me. In fact, it’s one of my very favorite Jazz recordings. There seems to be little logic involved, when it comes to our likes/dislikes, or if there is, it’s subtle and convoluted.
Some thoughts on this interesting discussion. @audio-b-dog , welcome to the thread!
I greatly appreciate it when someone shows great passion for this great art form. One of its beauties is how it (any art) can touch each of us differently and in unique ways. This goes straight to why, with all respect, I disagree with some of what you wrote. This is a personal matter and not a criticism.
I think it is very important to remember that one’s reaction to the amount of “emotionality” that a musician is perceived to express is very often as much a reflection of the listener as it is of the musician in question. It is very easy (and unfair) to label a musician as “lacking emotionality”, “intellectual”, or, conversely, “soulful” outside the context of our own unique sensibilities as listeners. I think that one should be very careful to not judge too quickly and instead be more respectful of what, instead, might be a very nuanced and personal way with emotionality. That’s not to say that we shouldn’t have preferences, but sometimes we are influenced by things that have little to do with musicality.
**** men show their swagger by the way they move their shoulders when they walk. Women show their swagger by the way they move their hips****
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate a woman’s hips as much as any man, but I don’t see what that has to do with expression of swagger (or anything else) in their playing.
You mentioned Wynton Marsalis. As I’m sure you know, Wynton is probably the most important advocate for Jazz currently. If not always by way of his playing, certainly by way of his understanding of the history of the music and passion for its education and promotion. When asked on the subject, he commented that it was the great Jazz singer Betty Carter that most embodied (at the time) the integrity, soul and swagger that are essential elements of great Jazz. Ever watch Betty Carter walk? Believe me, no hip swagger in the least 😊.
I don’t understand why the distinction is made between “female singers” and “musicians”. Female (and male, obviously) singers ARE musicians. Some singers are every bit the musician that the greatest instrumentalists are. Personally, I don’t get the preoccupation with “the feminine”. Stereotypes can be a dangerous thing when judging art.
Re the history of the music. While it is very true that the “swing” and “call and response” elements of Jazz has its roots in African culture, European concepts of melody and harmony were equally important in its development.
And, yes, the greats WORK at their craft. Work very hard. The greats practice incessantly and it isn’t always a fun endeavor. Sometimes it is painstaking and frustrating, but, yes, rewarding in the end.
Since you admire female Jazz artists so, have you checked out Mary Lou Williams? Very important figure in Jazz.
Roots of jazz: for those discussing the roots of jazz, I think the U.S. and Brazil are two countries where jazz and pop emerged because they're such melting pots with so many roots. Early jazz had so many influences. Obviously the blues from slaves and other Blacks, but there was also Scotch-Irish influences, and Jewish Klezmer music. The Gershwins were clearly part of jazz's beginnings, and Italian singers weren't wanting. This is one area of the arts where Europe had to look to the Americas.
stuartk, writing poetry was never difficult for me because I was bursting with something to say and I wanted very badly to say it. I studied with Gary Snyder and other notable poets, so I had a technical foundation. Once a poem burst out of me, like the Coltrane poem which I did write on a roadside, then I lovingly worked on it to refine what I wanted to say. But I don't write poetry anymore.
Writing prose, on the other hand, is a bitch. I should be working on my novel, but it's more pleasurable to write you. I think I was touched with poetry. I started writing in 9th grade. My high school poems were good enough to get me entry into a much-coveted spot in Gary Snyder's upper-division class at Berkeley. I was hungry for the tools he gave me.
To me poetry is a burst of emotion crafted into form. Prose, prose, prose... it is too long to be a burst of anything. And I do tons of research. I have been researching the book I'm working on for at least fifteen years. I didn't even know exactly what the book was about until research led me there.
From my research, I believe that music was first made during humanity's spiritual quest, about 40,000 to 60,000 years ago. Nietsche says there is no tragedy without music. And we all know there is not ecstasy without music. I think Coltrane had a direct pipeline into music's spirituality. I'm listening to Pharoah Sanders now, and he shared what Coltrane had. So did Alice Coltrane, whom I think should be on anybody's list of top jazz musicians.
The musicians you mentioned to me, Davis, Shorter, Coltrane, Parker, all broke through some barrier. And barriers are only broken with raw emotion. Parker brought us into bebop. Out of bebop, Coltrane and Miles took us into a raw, spiritual territory that jazz had not yet explored, at least not in their way.
I am not saying that they did not have to work, but I'm saying I don't think it was "work" for them. If somebody falls in love with somebody else, it is not work to spend days traveling to see them, even for a short time. Coltrane had something bursting to get out of him, and fI think he would have been anxious to find the tools and learn how to use them
I agree-- we are very much on the same page although I do think you are romanticizing a bit if you really believe there is not work involved in mastering Jazz. Like any art form, it takes commitment and and discipline and the further one wishes to go, the more it requires of the individual. The Coltrane’s and Shorters may make it seem easy but for most of us, art is not easy.
Having said that, I was watching an interview with Diane Seuss (digressing to poetry, here) the other day and she said writing poems has never been "effortful" for her. I wish I could say the same about my writing process!
BTW, I don’t find you to be a pain at all. That never entered my mind.
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