Hey gentry, me too: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDMISS70403122318013046&sql=Bevae4jj72waq And I thought you weren't internet savvy. |
"I love my turntable, but in my location garage sales are about it for new ones".... Do you mean LP's, the Internet is full of vinyl. We no longer have to live in the big city to get our lp fix. Check the forums for many good sites. I like eBay for those hard to find oldies. Even before the internet, when I used to travel the country, you know I always had to check-out those used record stores. I NEVER found most of the rare stuff you can see on eBay every day. peace, Ron |
I can get 8-tracks for you if you want, nothing is ever dead there is always someone who wants and therefore gets what they are looking for. Will vinyl ever be more than what it is today? No, the masses care about convenience not quality that is why mp3 etc.. take off, from the computer to the car to the portable to the home stereo to the home office......all one format easy to use, simple to set-up (for the moment free and mostly illegal) it's making a tape for your friend on a mass PUBLIC scale...wheres tapes where private, Vinyl sounds great...free and easy to use sounds better to most people. I love my turntable, but in my location garage sales are about it for new ones....unless i drive a couple of hours. Most people don't spend more than and hour a day with loved ones, you expect them to work to buy music....bah... Oh, well heres to vinyl...... :) |
I particularly like Michael Fremer pointing out how several young people he had run into recently thought vinyl was cool, as evidence that the vinyl "resurgence" continues to gather steam. I'm pretty sure this is the same demographic we've complained about over their penchant for MP3 downloading and the death of quality sound. BUT, MF also points out that vinyl outsold SACD and DVD-A COMBINED. That's the same SACD and DVD-A you can find at major retailers if you know just which corner to look in and don't need any help from the store employees that don't know anything about them. |
Audio Advisor is always chasing the hot segments. 10 years ago they were big tube sellers. Now they have dropped them. Does that mean tube gear is dead. Not at all. But tube buyers go to specialty stores mostly on the Web. Similarly, analog has gone to the big vinyl catalogs like Music Direct and Accoustic Sounds and Red Trumpet. They have figured out that record buyers will want to buy their gear and accesories from them. Also Needle Doctor (Jerry Raskins). AA is commercially successful, and not dedicated to anything but sales. Several new record pressing plants have come alive in the past two years. |
New material on vinyl may be slow, Reissues from the likes of Speaker's Corner, Classic Records, Sundazed, Rhino are hotter than ever. Witness the proliferation of new phono stages, new turntable designs, and the many high-end phono carts on the market. Used vinyl costs more than ever in stores as demand outstrips supply. Mark Twain said it best: "News of my death has been greatly exaggerated" We can argue until we are blue in the face over CD vs. vinyl. Both are right based on their own merits, both are wrong based on their faults. It's a personal choice for each user. Music and the means by which to reproduce it are plentiful and available at many different price points. Choose what you like, like what you choose. I listen to both formats, but prefer vinyl over CD. I invested more in my vinyl setup and opted for a cheaper digital rig that still gets the job done for me. |
Tom your post "08-14-03: Twl Maybe if they had a functional vinyl rig running in the store, they'd have some demand." Tom, you really have out done yourself again. You hit all the major points. This post should be pointed to in the future the next time some digivite gets a little defensive about their media choice. We have been down this road before. Hey 007 you need to lighten up a little. The folks on this analog forum (the lunatic fringe, what ever that kind or comment is supposed to accomplish) are for the most part very nice and will go out of their way to help you with any audio problem you have. Sometimes we don't always say it with grace. I can see 007 you have spent a lot of time and money on your system. I bet it sounds great! Only thing the nice folks here were saying (because we all wanted CD to be better than it is) if you had a Teres you would have a different opinion. IMHO Peace,Cheers Roni |
Vinyl is not dead, but I hope that one day soon it is put out of its misery. Dragging a small rock with a wire attached to it through a concoction of semi-solid oil and then amplifying the resulting electrical signal by a factor of 2000x is a primitive system worthy of a Rube Goldberg award. It's nearly as bad an engineering design as the 4 stroke internal combustion engine (the piston comes to a dead stop TWICE each power phase). Vinyl should not be declare totally dead until engineers and designers have exhausted all practical, and even some unpractical, refinements in vinyl mastering and turntable/tonearm/cartridge design. I don't think we are at that endpoint, yet. However, it's clear to me that any significant future advances (as opposed to refinements) in sound reproduction will be in the high sample rate digital arena. Regarding the concept of death in general, check out the Showtime series "Dead Like Me". It's interesting to say the least. Also, as John Garfield so accurately stated way back in a 1947 film: Everybody dies! What's so special about vinyl that it's supposed to live forever. |
Vader, I apologize if my comment was hurtful. I would edit or withdraw it if I could, since it was uncivil. Mea culpa. Let's start again with something we both agree on: our analog devices need protection from digital ones. Doesn't this tell us something? Can we learn from this? Music is sound. Sound is analog. Digitizing analog waveforms to store them compels us to to un-digitize them later to hear them. No process now in use does that without changing the waveforms in ways that humans can hear. Our ears are so sensitive to variations in analog waveforms that the only acceptable sampling rate is infinity, ie, the waveforms themselves. Everything less that's been tried to date is audibly different, ie, audibly inaccurate. If our goal is the accurate storage and reproduction of analog waveforms, an all-analog chain is the only currently available process that gives us a fighting chance. Obviously system iteration will matter, but if we violate this basic fact we'll have no chance of achieving accurate reproduction. This is not to say that I don't listen to CD's. I do, sometimes for convenience like TWL, sometimes because no analog copy is available like Newbee. But CD's don't play real music, they play a low resolution facsimile of it. Despite a pretty decent system only half my CD's are listenable. Many literally hurt my ears, and even the best of them cannot match a decent LP. YMMV of course, but that's what I hear and I think that's why I hear it. Sorry once again if I was harsh. |
Sorry you took that personal - you will note that I included "for the most part". I note from your past posts that you have at least had an interest in some music which appeared on CD's. There are some contributors who do not listen to CD's at all because they do not like the format. These are the folks to whom I was referring. They are missing out on a lot of great music which has appeared only on CD over the last 20 years. I have not lost that opportunity because of a format change, not will I despite my recent observation that the identical performance that I have on a Living Stereo Lp and CD revealed a warmer, fuller sound and more enjoyment with the LP than the CD, which was some what thinner and lacked midbass warmth. But I can cry in my beer that Tilson - Thomas's Mahler 6th isn't on LP and disregard it or I can buy the CD and enjoy the performance. I will always do the latter, only the sound is different, not the music. |
The system sound outstanding and it was perfectly matched. Yeah, right. Vader, if you ever come to Toledo I'll have my humble system ready for you--as well as the paramedics. Newbie, you are a newbie. Vinyl rules in my system. My belt driven CD transport is a piece of art, but the modded 1200 (aka The Creature) is the one who really brings the emotional involvement. This afternoon I was waiting for the auto shop driver to pick me up and I played a reissue of a Cheo Feliciano album (not José) with some serious love ballads. My Forté is down so I'm using my backup Yamaha A-1 integrated (1980) without my Monolithic phono stage. My left Swans has a blown tweeter. The recording was bad, the pressing was even worse and I was in front of the left speaker. When the driver honked the horn it was like when the alarm clock rings. I was in a trance. I can't say that from CD. I wish... |
Newbee says, "You will note that the is the analog forum, aka the lunatic fringe, whose member's interests in music are, for the most part, frozen in time." Must be why I have 1957 Miles Davis and 1966 Beatles and 2003 Coldplay, 1960 Stanley Brothers and 1972 Yes and 2002 Radiohead on vinyl, 1958 Reiner/CSO and 1967 Sinatra and 2000 Pearl Jam on vinyl. I'm a lunatic on the fringe, frozen in time. Oy... |
Vader, You will note that the is the analog forum, aka the lunatic fringe, whose member's interests in music are, for the most part, frozen in time. I agree with you in one major respect - if the soft ware (performances) arn't available in LP's who cares if LP's sound better. I also think good high end LP playback and CD's playback is equally good, just in different ways with a lot of different tradeoff's, but this group has already heard my reasons so I won't bore them further. Enjoy the music...and stick around. |
Vader, I didn't attack you. I even said specifically that I wasn't. I simply stated the facts as I see them. I never said that you had to use vinyl, nor am I "shoving it down your throat". Nowhere in my post did I try to say that anybody HAD to use vinyl. In fact I said,"So if convenience and easy buying of CD's in the store is your bag, then fine, use digital". I pointed out that other considerations besides sound are by far the most common reasons for choosing digital over vinyl. You are perfectly welcome to use whatever you want, and you don't need any justification to do so. Nor do I. But when it comes down to this discussion about the differences between media, my opinion is that the sonic choice is obvious, and I stated a good number of reasons for my opinion. You don't have to agree. I think anyone reading my previous post can see that I am not attacking anyone, but I am making a very pointed argument that some may not like, because it doesn't support the use of CD from a purist audiophile view. Keep in mind that I am speaking from an extreme minority viewpoint, and the vast majority of the commercial audio world is at odds with this view. But the point remains. Use what you like. Don't let me run you off this board, that is not my intent. |
Vader007 I feel the same way for the most part. Have a fairly expensive system by most standards and the best I have heard...so far anyway! Gave vinyl another try but just didn't get it...I did not use the most expensive vinyl setup for sure, but what I did use just didn't seem to be worth the extra work for a sound that didnt seem to be as good as an XRCD or SACD. Do have to admit though it did have a certain something so I can see what the fuss is about. Just wasn't for me for now. |
Twl, again you attack as if I know you personally. And you make too many assumptions. Look at my system, you think I cant afford a good if not great vinyl setup? I choose not to. For many reasons. I have a life, I dont have time for fus with cleaning records, ajusting VTA, storing albums, and I really dont care for the sound! Not to mention most of the music I listen to is not available on vinyl. So why would I support a medium I cant listen to? I dont buy SACD's for the same reason and I like that format, but if I cant get software for it, what good is it to me? I live on the more detailed side of the coin, look at my equipment, my sonic taste is clear. So dont jam vinyl down my throat! And dont assume everyone likes it or that it is better. That is your opinion which you are entitled to. But opinions are like assholes, evrybody has one and there seem to be a lot of both here. |
Maybe if they had a functional vinyl rig running in the store, they'd have some demand. But why do that, when it would mean they'd have to do setup, and educate the user? It's alot easier to just sell them an expensive CD player which would be embarrassed sonically by the presence of nearly any record player in the store. If I made my living by selling expensive CD players, I wouldn't have any analog rigs around either! As for demand, the change was forced on the public by the music companies, and there was no "vote" on what was going to be the main consumer media. They announced it and called back the vinyl, and made all new media on CD. If you wanted new music and wanted to buy it at the local store, you bought CD, period. That was done to us, not us requesting it. I'm not attacking Vader or his system, I'm just making some information known, that many already know. The part that really gags me, is the discussion of "ticks and pops", as if that is the only difference between analog and digital, where the digital doesn't have them, so it's better. The "ticks and pops" are minimal if you care for and clean your records and have a decent rig. But the fact is that the musical information on the CD is lacking compared to vinyl. So to eliminate a small problem of an occasional noise, people sacrifice musical content. Oh, I know, no digital user wants to admit this, but it is all over this forum. "How can I make my CD player more analog sounding?", and "What's the most analog sounding digital player?", "If I get a CD player with a tube output stage, will it sound more like analog?" are themes that pop up regularly on these forum pages. This really isn't a discussion about which one is better sonically, because the answer is clear, and well known. All that ever comes up are the "red herrings" about record noise, convenience, software availability, remote control, etc. Notice that the sound quality is rarely, if ever, brought up in these discussions. That's because digital loses on sound quality. And it loses badly. So if convenience and easy buying of CD's in the store is your bag, then fine, use digital. But if the criteria is audio quality, then analog takes the pot. And this is nothing new, it has been this way since the introduction of the CD, and it is still that way, even with the new formats of SACD and DVDA. The fact is that for top level performance, digital has never made the grade, despite all the promises to the contrary. No matter how expensive the player is. In fact, it amazes me that anybody is still buying into this digital stuff for audiophile use. It has never been what they tried to say it was. And even right now, you can buy some basic, entry level analog gear that will snuff about any digital player ever made. In fact, recently I read right here on Audiogon about a guy who bought a sub-$1k Music Hall TT and it burned his $6k digital player to the ground. Oh yeah, those nasty clicks and pops again. If you want quiet, just turn off your rig and it will be real quiet. If you want music of the highest caliber, then put on the ol' licorice pizza, because that is where it is, and there's no little shiny disc or player that has ever changed that fact. If people would be more forthcoming with their real reasons for wanting digital, like convenience, then there wouldn't be any argument here. But, for some reason, there is this compelling desire to try to convince themselves and others that digital is just as good as analog, but is quiet and convenient. Sorry, but that just doesn't wash. It might be "good enough" so that the convenience makes you prefer it, but not on sound quality alone. I think this is the crux of the argument, and if you base your decision purely on sound, then analog wins hands-down. And we are audiophiles, right? |
It truly amazes me how many people felt personally attacked by my post, and felt the need to attack me and my system for whatever reasons. (which by the way sounds outstanding, and was completely matched before purchase.) The dealers I work worth allow me to design and build a system in thier showroom for me to listen before I purchased each piece. When I consider un upgrade, I am allowed to bring each component to my home and evaluate it in my system first. I was simply trying to point out that I shop in some of the bigger dealers (Soundex, Overtures and so on) and these guys never have a functional vinyl rig to listen to because of lack of demand. Also, if vinyl was so popular your larger music stores would still carry albums....they dont! And for Dougdecan I guess I need to explain the seperation of analoge from vinyl I was talking about my amp/preamp vs my cd/dvd player or dac. I guess he dosnt have the common sense to figure that one out! |
No way! I've been putting together a modest but sweet analogue system these last few months ( AR, Luxman, Thorens, Grado ). Bought a Simply Vinyl 180gm pressing of Gerry Rafferty's "City to City". Cued up "Right Down the Line". I had such a physical reaction to the vocal harmonies that my jaw dropped. This from a $500 investment! The upgrade bug will bite me soon. Dead? HA! |
Psychicanimal, I wasn't joking him for having regenerators. I have the poor man's equivalent, Exact Power EP15A. The joke was spending major bucks to seperate digital from analog, then posting that digital was superior. That's truly funny. Vader, Like some other crazies, we love the sinner but we hate the sin! Feel free to tell us what you think of all this unsolicited advice. |
Sean: I used to sell audio equipment. I kind of know what happened here (don't need to be a psychic). And I'm not attacking the man, in fact I defended him from someone above joking him for having regenerators. Just told him he needs to go back to square one. He's the one that wrote that the truth sometimes hurts, so I assumed he's ready for it (maybe). Now the dealer is one piece of work, let me tell you. The first question I always asked customers was the size of the room and the layout. |
Not sure where you live, Vader, but if it is in the Bay Area California, contact me. I bet that in one afternoon, and some flexibility with regard to placement (send the wife on a shopping trip?), there would be sound coming from that rig that you would not believe. Plus, I'd wager that a quality table in your rig would flip you with regard to analog (with digital remainig in its rightful place). |
Psychicanimal: While i agree that Vader's installation seems to be configured much moreso for convenience rather than performance, i sincerely doubt that the dealer had anything to do with this. As to the specific selection of gear that anyone owns, those are all personal decisions that nobody but ourselves are responsible for. I don't remember anyone, not even the pushiest dealer in town, ever holding a gun to my head and saying "pay retail for this and do it NOW". We buy what we like and think will work good. Obviously, some of us have different approaches and likes / dislikes than others, but hey, that's why they make different makes and models. After all, variety is the spice of life : ) Sean > PS... You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar. Rather than attack Vader and belittle the dealer he may have worked with, you might have tried to ask a few questions that might make him re-assess his installation or offer a few pointers that you know for certain could improve the installation. After all, i think that we've all learned from questions asked by others and / or posed to us. I also think that we've all had some form of outside help ( in most cases ) to help us better understand how things "should be" rather than how they currently are. I don't think that any of us, me included, woke up one day and know what we do now without some form of outside influence. Most of our knowledge comes from first hand experience gained over a very long and slow period of time and / or knowledge passed onto us from others that had experience and were willing to share. Nobody becomes a brain surgeon overnight. |
The main problem that guy has is setup. Everything is cluttered and the speakers are too big for the room, there is absolutely NO space to create a stereo image. The room would be good for a Bose 901 setup. That's the type of space they love (he!). I agree, better (and much smaller) speakers should have been set-up. That's why I love near field listening. The power regenerators, though probably overkill in terms of $$$$ and size are something very important. I would have executed it with my own style...and forgone the expensive power cords. But, what do I know? I'm the crazy guy that's in love with his modded 1200! One more thing Vate, who's your audio dealer? He really screwed you selling you all that stuff and then throwing it all with no regards to anything! I want to avoid him like the plague! |
Vader: Just saw the pics of your system, very nice! Please don't take offence, but I'm amazed at the amount of money people spend on tweaky things. It's as if you get to a level where you've GOT all the good things, and then there's nowhere left to go so you start looking for things in rainbows. The secret to good sound is system synergy and finding hardware that suits your taste. Instead of all those fancy cables and power conditioners you would be amazed ( for less money) if you simply plonked a secondhand high-end turntable in there, or switched your speaker to an electrostatic/panel/horn design or one using exotic hi-tech materials like Beryllium/Raven Ribbons/Accuton Ceramics. All those fancy cables are appropriately named after snakes - Powersnakes/Pythons/Black Mamba...all 'snake oil' stuff, IMHO. Please don't flame me for this guys, just trying to give another perspective. Regards, Steve M. |
"...but sometimes the truth hurts." Valder, I looked at the pictures of your system. You need to go back to square one! There is no way anything will sound right in such a setup! Like I say, high end is who you are, not what you buy... The die hard audiophiles still hang on, but those are the guys with the very expensive MCs and those weird looking tables. Truth is there's quite a number of young people buying vinyl. Here in Toledo Metro there's four Allied Record Exchanges and there's always people buying used vinyl. It's not a lot(good), but I recently bought a new Don Cherry reissue. That's a small market but those stores carry vinyl. It's a niche. I don't know how it will be 10 years from now but right now to me it's more fun to go to a used record store. No, those people don't have VPIs or Linn Sondek's or Teres. The better ones have old restored Empire's, Thorens and the others like me use the creature. But it is those of us who go down on our knees to go through the record piles to search for the goodies. With psychic power and primal intensity, |
Of course vinyl is NOT dead !! Vader: I've run Bel Canto DAC-1 and Perpetual Technologies P3A DACs for the last couple of years and was quite happy with them until I heard a Roksan Xerxes/Koetsu Rosewood turntable a couple of weeks ago. The sound of the vinyl set-up is so superior to CD, it's not funny! I too, don't like the pops and crackles and the inconvenience of records - but there's no denying its superior sonic qualities. See my post on the 'et tu Koetsu' thread. Regards, Steve M. |
I heard they held a meeting in New York with the other record companies in 1989 and decided then that they would no longer make LP's the main format and push the CD. Could anyone confirm this? That would explain why Vinyl just disappeared over night. Look at how the Japanese manufacturers have tried to push different formats on us like DCC, then DAT, then Mini Disc, Then HDCD, then SACD, then DVD's, and now MP3. The japanese are always trying to invent something though it's not better just different so we as consumers will have to buy it. That would explain why JVC will not sell their presses and lathes or even the formula for the high quality vinyl they made. CD has been around for about 20 years but still has not come down in price and still doesn't sound better than vinyl. Why are the prices so high for CD's when the CD you buy for your home use are pretty cheap now. We never had a choice in the matter of vinyl, we were forced to buy CD's if we wanted new music. As for myself if I had a choice I would never have bought a CD player but if I want to listen to new music then I need one (see want I mean). If the record companies would keep records of LP's that are sold (new/used) from used record store and the top music store on line and everywhere then I think that the vinyl sale will be a lot higher than 1% of the total music sales. I have spent over the last 3 months about $375.00 on new LP's so thats quite a bit just by myself. We should all send letters or emails to the top record companies demanding that they at least run a limited amount of all new LP's with all new and older music and then they will see that the LP's would bring in a very nice profit and is still a popular format. It wouldn't hurt, all we need is a chance to show them which format we want when given the choice. Steve... Steve... |
The die hards still hang on, but truth be told, you wont see vinyl on display at the big dealers any more. Soundex still has an occasional static dislpay every now and then, Overture's has dropped it for a while ago. Digital is much better than it used to be. I'm sure this response will bring much hate mail, but sometimes the truth hurts. I myself never could never accept the pos and hisses, too distracting, and for what, a disc that slowly degrades with each use. Vader |
