Vader007
I feel the same way for the most part.
Have a fairly expensive system by most standards and the best I have heard...so far anyway! Gave vinyl another try but just didn't get it...I did not use the most expensive vinyl setup for sure, but what I did use just didn't seem to be worth the extra work for a sound that didnt seem to be as good as an XRCD or SACD.
Do have to admit though it did have a certain something so I can see what the fuss is about. Just wasn't for me for now. |
Vader, I didn't attack you. I even said specifically that I wasn't. I simply stated the facts as I see them. I never said that you had to use vinyl, nor am I "shoving it down your throat". Nowhere in my post did I try to say that anybody HAD to use vinyl. In fact I said,"So if convenience and easy buying of CD's in the store is your bag, then fine, use digital". I pointed out that other considerations besides sound are by far the most common reasons for choosing digital over vinyl.
You are perfectly welcome to use whatever you want, and you don't need any justification to do so. Nor do I. But when it comes down to this discussion about the differences between media, my opinion is that the sonic choice is obvious, and I stated a good number of reasons for my opinion. You don't have to agree.
I think anyone reading my previous post can see that I am not attacking anyone, but I am making a very pointed argument that some may not like, because it doesn't support the use of CD from a purist audiophile view. Keep in mind that I am speaking from an extreme minority viewpoint, and the vast majority of the commercial audio world is at odds with this view. But the point remains.
Use what you like. Don't let me run you off this board, that is not my intent. |
Vader, You will note that the is the analog forum, aka the lunatic fringe, whose member's interests in music are, for the most part, frozen in time. I agree with you in one major respect - if the soft ware (performances) arn't available in LP's who cares if LP's sound better. I also think good high end LP playback and CD's playback is equally good, just in different ways with a lot of different tradeoff's, but this group has already heard my reasons so I won't bore them further. Enjoy the music...and stick around. |
Newbee says, "You will note that the is the analog forum, aka the lunatic fringe, whose member's interests in music are, for the most part, frozen in time."
Must be why I have 1957 Miles Davis and 1966 Beatles and 2003 Coldplay, 1960 Stanley Brothers and 1972 Yes and 2002 Radiohead on vinyl, 1958 Reiner/CSO and 1967 Sinatra and 2000 Pearl Jam on vinyl. I'm a lunatic on the fringe, frozen in time. Oy... |
The system sound outstanding and it was perfectly matched. Yeah, right. Vader, if you ever come to Toledo I'll have my humble system ready for you--as well as the paramedics.
Newbie, you are a newbie.
Vinyl rules in my system. My belt driven CD transport is a piece of art, but the modded 1200 (aka The Creature) is the one who really brings the emotional involvement. This afternoon I was waiting for the auto shop driver to pick me up and I played a reissue of a Cheo Feliciano album (not José) with some serious love ballads. My Forté is down so I'm using my backup Yamaha A-1 integrated (1980) without my Monolithic phono stage. My left Swans has a blown tweeter. The recording was bad, the pressing was even worse and I was in front of the left speaker. When the driver honked the horn it was like when the alarm clock rings. I was in a trance. I can't say that from CD. I wish... |
Sorry you took that personal - you will note that I included "for the most part". I note from your past posts that you have at least had an interest in some music which appeared on CD's. There are some contributors who do not listen to CD's at all because they do not like the format. These are the folks to whom I was referring. They are missing out on a lot of great music which has appeared only on CD over the last 20 years. I have not lost that opportunity because of a format change, not will I despite my recent observation that the identical performance that I have on a Living Stereo Lp and CD revealed a warmer, fuller sound and more enjoyment with the LP than the CD, which was some what thinner and lacked midbass warmth. But I can cry in my beer that Tilson - Thomas's Mahler 6th isn't on LP and disregard it or I can buy the CD and enjoy the performance. I will always do the latter, only the sound is different, not the music. |
Vader, I apologize if my comment was hurtful. I would edit or withdraw it if I could, since it was uncivil. Mea culpa.
Let's start again with something we both agree on: our analog devices need protection from digital ones. Doesn't this tell us something? Can we learn from this?
Music is sound. Sound is analog. Digitizing analog waveforms to store them compels us to to un-digitize them later to hear them. No process now in use does that without changing the waveforms in ways that humans can hear. Our ears are so sensitive to variations in analog waveforms that the only acceptable sampling rate is infinity, ie, the waveforms themselves. Everything less that's been tried to date is audibly different, ie, audibly inaccurate.
If our goal is the accurate storage and reproduction of analog waveforms, an all-analog chain is the only currently available process that gives us a fighting chance. Obviously system iteration will matter, but if we violate this basic fact we'll have no chance of achieving accurate reproduction.
This is not to say that I don't listen to CD's. I do, sometimes for convenience like TWL, sometimes because no analog copy is available like Newbee. But CD's don't play real music, they play a low resolution facsimile of it. Despite a pretty decent system only half my CD's are listenable. Many literally hurt my ears, and even the best of them cannot match a decent LP.
YMMV of course, but that's what I hear and I think that's why I hear it. Sorry once again if I was harsh. |
Hey, Psychoanimal, call me anything you wish, but at least spell my pseudonym correctly. It's Newbee - not newbie - and FYI I haven't been one for a while. I passed my BS test a long time ago. :-) |
Vinyl is not dead, but I hope that one day soon it is put out of its misery. Dragging a small rock with a wire attached to it through a concoction of semi-solid oil and then amplifying the resulting electrical signal by a factor of 2000x is a primitive system worthy of a Rube Goldberg award. It's nearly as bad an engineering design as the 4 stroke internal combustion engine (the piston comes to a dead stop TWICE each power phase). Vinyl should not be declare totally dead until engineers and designers have exhausted all practical, and even some unpractical, refinements in vinyl mastering and turntable/tonearm/cartridge design. I don't think we are at that endpoint, yet. However, it's clear to me that any significant future advances (as opposed to refinements) in sound reproduction will be in the high sample rate digital arena.
Regarding the concept of death in general, check out the Showtime series "Dead Like Me". It's interesting to say the least. Also, as John Garfield so accurately stated way back in a 1947 film: Everybody dies! What's so special about vinyl that it's supposed to live forever. |
That's a good point, Onhwy61. I agree it is an archaic medium. I am anxiously awaiting for the technology that can surpass it. |
Dougdeacon, Apology accepted.
I never ment to get into the old pissing match between digital and vinyl. The sound quality was not what this thread was about. The thread is discussing the decline of popularity on vinyl, and i simply added my observations to reinforce this theory.
Vader |
Tom your post
"08-14-03: Twl
Maybe if they had a functional vinyl rig running in the store, they'd have some demand."
Tom, you really have out done yourself again. You hit all the major points. This post should be pointed to in the future the next time some digivite gets a little defensive about their media choice.
We have been down this road before.
Hey 007 you need to lighten up a little. The folks on this analog forum (the lunatic fringe, what ever that kind or comment is supposed to accomplish) are for the most part very nice and will go out of their way to help you with any audio problem you have. Sometimes we don't always say it with grace.
I can see 007 you have spent a lot of time and money on your system. I bet it sounds great! Only thing the nice folks here were saying (because we all wanted CD to be better than it is) if you had a Teres you would have a different opinion. IMHO
Peace,Cheers
Roni |
Rockinroni...To paraphrase George Orwell..."ALL audiophiles are in the "lunatic fringe", but some audiophiles are more loony than others". |
New material on vinyl may be slow, Reissues from the likes of Speaker's Corner, Classic Records, Sundazed, Rhino are hotter than ever. Witness the proliferation of new phono stages, new turntable designs, and the many high-end phono carts on the market. Used vinyl costs more than ever in stores as demand outstrips supply. Mark Twain said it best: "News of my death has been greatly exaggerated"
We can argue until we are blue in the face over CD vs. vinyl. Both are right based on their own merits, both are wrong based on their faults. It's a personal choice for each user. Music and the means by which to reproduce it are plentiful and available at many different price points. Choose what you like, like what you choose. I listen to both formats, but prefer vinyl over CD. I invested more in my vinyl setup and opted for a cheaper digital rig that still gets the job done for me. |
Both vinyl and digital are garbage. None of it compares with the music and voices that i hear in my head : ) Sean
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Anybody who reads that other site's "outside" forum knows that Sean isn't kidding. :-( |
Sean, are the voices in Stereo or Mono? |
Albert: Multi-channel "surround" sound. No matter where i go, i can't seem to escape them : ) Sean
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Audio Advisor is always chasing the hot segments. 10 years ago they were big tube sellers. Now they have dropped them. Does that mean tube gear is dead. Not at all. But tube buyers go to specialty stores mostly on the Web. Similarly, analog has gone to the big vinyl catalogs like Music Direct and Accoustic Sounds and Red Trumpet. They have figured out that record buyers will want to buy their gear and accesories from them. Also Needle Doctor (Jerry Raskins). AA is commercially successful, and not dedicated to anything but sales. Several new record pressing plants have come alive in the past two years. |
I particularly like Michael Fremer pointing out how several young people he had run into recently thought vinyl was cool, as evidence that the vinyl "resurgence" continues to gather steam. I'm pretty sure this is the same demographic we've complained about over their penchant for MP3 downloading and the death of quality sound.
BUT, MF also points out that vinyl outsold SACD and DVD-A COMBINED. That's the same SACD and DVD-A you can find at major retailers if you know just which corner to look in and don't need any help from the store employees that don't know anything about them. |
I guess that the folks that made me initiate this thread must have read it. That is, the new Audio Advisor catalogue is dedicated to all things vinyl. As Emily Latella would say "nevermind" : ) Sean
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Sean: If one is to judge by catalogs, take a look at the latest from Music Direct...Analog front, center, and out the yin-yang :-) |
Psychicanimal, Yammie A1, that was a sweet piece in my mine. Sold it years ago. Tell me how it sounds today. tks |
...I'll see your Yin and raise you 3 Yangs!
Yes, absolutely, it's dead!
Please send me all your dead LPs, I will respectfully put them to rest in my state-of-the-art mausoleum where they will be preserved for eternity in their own dust jackets.
Oh...I'll pay shipping. |
I can get 8-tracks for you if you want, nothing is ever dead there is always someone who wants and therefore gets what they are looking for. Will vinyl ever be more than what it is today? No, the masses care about convenience not quality that is why mp3 etc.. take off, from the computer to the car to the portable to the home stereo to the home office......all one format easy to use, simple to set-up (for the moment free and mostly illegal) it's making a tape for your friend on a mass PUBLIC scale...wheres tapes where private, Vinyl sounds great...free and easy to use sounds better to most people.
I love my turntable, but in my location garage sales are about it for new ones....unless i drive a couple of hours. Most people don't spend more than and hour a day with loved ones, you expect them to work to buy music....bah...
Oh, well heres to vinyl...... :) |
"I love my turntable, but in my location garage sales are about it for new ones"....
Do you mean LP's, the Internet is full of vinyl.
We no longer have to live in the big city to get our lp fix.
Check the forums for many good sites.
I like eBay for those hard to find oldies.
Even before the internet, when I used to travel the country, you know I always had to check-out those used record stores.
I NEVER found most of the rare stuff you can see on eBay every day.
peace,
Ron |
YES VINYL IS DEAD.
Now that the issue is settled, everyone send their LP's to me for disposal. |
I've tried that several times Albert and, curiously, I've received no LP's! :-) |
dammit...the internet i forgot about that....you know small things slip my mind once in awhile :)
But not everyone has internet either....
Where do you recomend lookin on the internet? do you have any favorite places you go for vinyl? I've bought latex :) over the internet but never vinyl.
Cheers |
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