And this.....
09-27-15: Zephyr24069
I 2nd Guido's feedback; filter choices and upsampling choice make all the difference in the world with the K and P players from Esoteric. Also, remember, ever filter combination needs it own break-in cycle so if you've changed filters and not given each 350+ hours of playback, you have not heard the player in that config properly yet. Also, level of XLR cables, power cords, etc...make a hell of a difference just like everything else. The Reimyo player is one hell of a unit....very healthy competition and one I almost bought years ago.
Zephyr24069 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) |
And this.....
09-24-15: Guidocorona
George, I'm really sorry to hear that.... Filters on K-01 do a great deal of work. I agree that without filters and with no upsampling, the sound of K-01 is something that only its Moma could love.
Yet, the 5 filter options combined with the upsampling options let the user taylor the behavior of the unit a great deal.... If you enjoy a warm sound, all you need do is select S_dly1.... And then upsample / or not to taste. For me, Nirvana was reach with S_dly2 and 4x upsampling.
Of course, if you are allergic in principle to the very concept of filters and upsampling... That would be a different ball of wax.
Guidocorona (Threads | Answers | This Thread) |
Maybe you missed this :-
"Since I like the overall sound of the K-01 and my system, and do not wish to change any component for big financial reasons...." |
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Thanks, Al, for your informative input as always.
What intrigues me is what I hear when I add a preamp in the chain(I started off direct from source to power amp).
I get more :-
1. dynamics
2. air around instruments
3. tonal body to instruments
4. solid bass foundation for orchestral works
5. soundstage depth, width and height
6. liquid flow of musical notes
7. musicality or PRAT
If all that is distortion, euphemisms aside, then so be it. Instruments just sound more natural and live than without the preamp.
When the supposedly more "accurate" signal sounds less natural and live, then things get very puzzling here. I can only trust my own ears, all electronics theory aside.
Cheers! J. |
09-28-15: Almarg
Not to disagree with two of my favorite and most respected A'gon colleagues (Ralph & Jon), but if: I too Al have respect for Ralph, and have praised his OTL amps many times in these forums and others when partnered with the "right speaker". But I'm at a loss also in this thread, makes me think there is something else at play. Cheers George |
Yes Al, same, same, colourations, distortions, inaccuracy.
I use the word colourations when I'm being kind, after that when pi**'ed I'll start to use the proper term "distortions".
Cheers George |
Not to disagree with two of my favorite and most respected A'gon colleagues (Ralph & Jon), but if:
1)The output stage of a source component can drive whatever power amp is being used and the associated interconnect cables without compromise, or, alternatively, at least as well as whatever preamp might be inserted between those components, AND
2)The volume control in the source component, assuming it has one, is EITHER:
(a)As transparent in the range of settings that would be used in the no preamp configuration of the system as it would be if set for use with a preamp (i.e., at or near max in typical cases), OR
(b)As transparent as the volume control that is provided in whatever preamp might be introduced into the signal path,
then it seems to me that the only way inserting a preamp into the signal path can result in sound quality that is subjectively preferable would be by producing an output that is less true to the source material (i.e., less accurate) than the signal that is provided to it by the source component.
And I believe that George is using the term "coloration," or "colouration" in Down-Under speak, to mean essentially the same thing as "inaccuracy."
Best regards,
-- Al
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How in g**s name can a active preamp give you more REAL detail (not perceived detail because of distortions) from the source than the same well match direct source to poweramp.??
Please produce some laws of electronics in your answer and not voodoo speak.
Cheers George
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"It is not correct to say that all active preamps take away from detail and transparency or add colorations. Some give you *less* coloration with greater detail and transparency."
+1,Ralph.
You hit the nail on the head.
That is precisely what a preamp did for my whole system - greater detail and transparency.
Having a preamp also solved the impedance mismatch between the K-01 and Bryston 28B monos.
But in George's little world, change the source OR power amp! Surreal!
Cheers@ J. |
Ralph??? we are discussing about what the OP's question is, stop rambling about passives, GET A GRIP MATE.
"Is no preamp really better that a good preamp"
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George makes a good point- if a preamp robs you of transparency and detail, its not helping!
The same can be said of an improperly applied passive control.
In both cases, audition is necessary.
It is not correct to say that all active preamps take away from detail and transparency or add colorations. Some give you *less* coloration with greater detail and transparency.
But it is also not correct to say that all passive controls take away from detail and transparency or add colorations. Some give you less coloration with greater detail and transparency; **in either case its all in the setup.**
The issue is you have to pay attention to variables and interconnect are one of the bigger sets of variables. For example, I like to have my preamp and turntable near the listening chair, and my amps as close to the speakers as I can get them. So my interconnects are 30 feet long. A passive does not work in this situation. To get around cable problems, I run equipment that supports the balanced line standard (defined in the AES file 48) and thus the cable does not contribute or detract from the sound.
A further variable in input and output impedances of the equipment in use. This can work badly with either active or passive systems- again- its all in the setup!
When the cable ceases to be part of the system sound (regardless of how you go about it), that's a good thing. If you are running a passive system, the obvious lesson here is keep your cables short!
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That a component is cool or warm may not really be a problem in itself. It is designed that way and some audiophiles may like it as is. To match it with a synergistic component is an art for the audiophile to nuture in this hobby. And that's just what we try to do everyday instead of changing components right after just buying them new.
Cheers! J. |
We (audiophiles) all try to get the very best possible sound that blows us away, then it's a shame that some of us have to compromise it because we need to change sources and are not up to just to unplug and change them.
This why I have a dedicated system with the least compromises in my hifi room, and another one in a TV room for all the other stuff/crap like surround sound, tuner, internet streaming ect.
Oh and I suppose your may have read this post about the K-01 which is Delta Sigma vs his older Reimyo R2R Ladder Multibit dac, which all the very best are starting to use again because this way of conversion it is said to give a better presentation of real music, the owner also missed the warmth of his Reimyo when he changed to the K-01
[url]http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1358613368&&&/Unsatisfied-with-Esoteric-K-01:-Alternat[/url]
So that's two of you with the same beef about the K-01, wouldn't it be better to fix the problem rather than just putting a very expensive band-aid on it, and causing maybe other problems.
Cheers George |
Most of us need a preamp for various reasons - multiple sources, balance control, phase control. So, one needs to choose a preamp that synergises with the source. To change the K-01 entirely is not something my pocket will be thankful for.
We must have read endless reviews about a cool/warm source component and the reviewer will say, "Matching this with a warm/cool preamp is advisable. Preamp ABC with this source XYZ is truly a match made in audio heaven."
So, we try to mate preamp ABC or equivalent with the source. Either that or, we change the source altogether. The latter simply cannot be a fiscally reasonable option.
Cheers! J. |
"finding a preamp that warms things up a bit to neutral, is just what I need to fix this problem."
You have hi-end components, and I think that's going to cost big time and a lot of A/Bing preamps just to warm the sound over and maybe loose transparency and detail in the process.
Better off trying to warm it up in other ways that are cheaper, like changing any silver cable/s for OFC Copper ones or change and sell the component that has the "cool" sound to a warmer sounding one. Your pocket will thank you.
Cheers George
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George,
I agree with you that one should "....look at the problem area and changing to or modding the component that causing it, not by adding another one into the signal path chain to gloss it over."
Take my problem for instance. My Esoteric K-01 can sound a bit cool but other than this problem alone, everything else in my system chain I find highly satisfactory. Since I like the overall sound of the K-01 and my system, and do not wish to change any component for big financial reasons, finding a preamp that warms things up a bit to neutral, is just what I need to fix this problem. One may consider this an acceptable solution. It's all about system synergy. It's like an audio reviewer describing the sound of a component under review and then advising what other component to match it with, be it source, amp, speakers, cables, etc.
Cheers! J. |
Phd, yes the "less is more" is they way to go if you have a well sorted system.
But if there is a problem area that needs to be fixed, then by adding the right preamp that can tame or accentuate that problem area, then yes by adding the preamp that has those colourations in that area then it can be a pseudo fix.
Good luck on finding the right preamp, as they all sound different, in different areas.
Audio enthusiasts, reviewers, and even manufactures have allways said as far as I can remember, "the prefect preamp" should sound "like a straight wire with gain" which funnily enough is the direct in approach with no preamp.
But I'm of the school that looks at the problem area and changing to or modding the component that causing it, not by adding another one into the signal path chain to gloss it over.
Cheers George
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I can understand where Georgelofi is coming from. He is from the camp that less is more and he is not alone in his thinking. There are many people on this website that would agree with him. Once upon a time I went that path myself. Yes there was more detail, transparency improved, musicaly engaging, no. It is our own fault that many of our own systems are starting to sound sterile, maybe we audiophiles are expecting too much from them.
Rustler, I don't think Andrew9405 was rude at all but his opinions are appreciated. |
If you are interested in Cary, skip the SLP-03 and go to the SLP-05, which can be purchased used for less than $5K. It is a huge step up from the slp-03 or sli-80. |
09-27-15: Georgelofi
Of course Jon2020, and I've said exactly that, if he likes what a preamp adds (and that's a colouration) because something else is not quite right that's ok.
What erks me is when the preamp brigade use blanket statements that preamps are better than direct period, without even knowing if the user needs that colouration or not in his or her system.
And then also saying it drives the poweramp/interconnect better which in this case it cannot, as he has a perfect impedance, voltage and gain match going direct. IMO George's post is very well put, and I fully agree (assuming, that is, that "erks" is a Down-Underism for "irks" :-)). I would emphasize the phrase "because something else is not quite right." As I stated earlier: If you do eventually have an opportunity to try a tube (or other) preamp in your system, and if you find the resulting sonics to be preferable to no preamp, keep in mind the possibility that the root cause MIGHT be a less than optimal tonal match between your power amp and your speakers. Particularly in view of the impedance characteristics of the speakers (4 ohms nominal, 0.8 ohms at 20 kHz), which could conceivably result in an over-emphasis of the upper treble in conjunction with some solid state amplifiers.
Should that ever prove to be the case, changing power amps would probably be a better solution than adding a preamp. Note that I said "probably." It is also certainly possible that adding a preamp in that circumstance could be a good solution. But my point is that if the sound improves as a result of the addition of a preamp, the possibility that something else should be replaced, instead of the preamp being kept in the system, should be kept in mind. Best regards, -- Al |
Well, it's all very simple then.
1. Start with no preamp in the chain.
2. Then add preamp.
3. If adding preamp makes the sound better, keep it.
4. If adding preamp makes the sound worse, remove it.
Preamp or no preamp brigades become superfluous very quickly here.
Cheers! J. |
Of course Jon2020, and I've said exactly that, if he likes what a preamp adds (and that's a colouration) because something else is not quite right that's ok.
What erks me is when the preamp brigade use blanket statements that preamps are better than direct period, without even knowing if the user needs that colouration or not in his or her system.
And then also saying it drives the poweramp/interconnect better which in this case it cannot, as he has a perfect impedance, voltage and gain match going direct.
Cheers George
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George,
I get what you are saying about not adding anything negative to a signal via an active preamp. But shouldn't the proof be in the listening?
I mean if the OP likes what he hears with a preamp in the chain compared to without, then couldn't he just go with what his ears prefer than with theory alone?
Cheers! J. |
No freezing, just that warm feeling of not having to empty your pockets on an added active preamp that not needed under these conditions, and probably going forward with the sound instead of backward in the process.
Cheers George
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Wait! Do we have George and Ralph agreeing on something? Guess that loud cracking sound noise I just heard was hell freezing over ;-). |
09-26-15: Clio09
If you do not need the gain, the source variable output section can control the interconnect, and you like the sound then you should stop there. Correct Clio, Once again, please anyone who wants to put their head on the chopping block. Using and quoting the laws of electronics (not just voodoo speak) what is not matched with the OP's PS Audio Dac 100ohm 2.8v output running direct into the Spectron's 50kohm 26db of gain input. Cheers George |
It's not really about the specs, although impedance matching should be considered. Go back and read Atama-Sphere's response. Pay attention to #3 and #4. IMO If you do not need the gain, the source variable output section can control the interconnect, and you like the sound then you should stop there. |
09-26-15: Rustler
I guess my final question, then, is what kinds of specs should I look for in a preamp if I want to add one at some point? Ah!! now that's another ball game, if you want to colour the sound in some way instead what you get going direct, this will be a bit of a merry go round, as all preamps have different sound signatures, and no one here could give you the right answer to which to get unless they are you. Cheers George |
09-26-15: Rustler
I guess my final question, then, is what kinds of specs should I look for in a preamp if I want to add one at some point? As I've said in some past threads, the main usefulness of specs, IMO, is to allow candidates to be ruled OUT from consideration, based on poor or questionable technical compatibility with the other components in the system, or on the basis of user preferences such as cost, size, weight, appearance, remote control capability, etc. In this case I believe you are fortunate in that from a technical standpoint it appears that your existing system would be compatible with the vast majority of both tube and solid state preamps. The one slight question mark that occurs to me involves some preamps, such as certain Conrad Johnson models, which provide very high gain (e.g., 25 db or more). Gains in that vicinity, or higher, MIGHT cause you to have to operate the preamp's volume control undesirably close to the bottom of its range if (as would presumably be desirable) the preamp were used with the volume control on the DAC set at or close to the top of its range. Beyond that, all I can suggest is that you research what kinds of preamps others have reported to provide good sonic results with the same or similar speakers and amplifier. "Similar" meaning, at least, Martin Logan speakers and high powered class D amplifiers. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
But you haven't offered a single helpful comment to my questions or to any of the other responses! What kind of "opinion" offering is that? |
I guess my final question, then, is what kinds of specs should I look for in a preamp if I want to add one at some point? |
"What gives"
My opinion.
Don't like it? Move on.
Good luck with your selection. |
Many thanks to all of you, especially Almarg, Georgelofi, Jcharvet, Knighifi, and Plinko. Really useful input. Andrew9405: I did contact the manufacturers, but they are loathe to recommend any other components. You seem more interested in criticizing other postings than in offering useful input. What gives? |
Rustler, awesome system. If you like clarity, looks like you have optimized things with your amp/speaker combination. I don't think you will have a problem with a passive with your sources and certainly not with an autoformer.
Vinnie Rossi makes the LIO products where you can get a linestage with autoformer (passive) and also a tube stage. Even better, you can switch the tube linestage out of the signal path so you can try passive only (autoformer). It looks like a great product to me. It uses a fantastic autoformer module made by Intact Audio (good explanation of how autoformers work at their website). I think it should work with your PS a audio components (the direct stream uses transformers at the output, which is terrific). And if it doesn't, you still have a tube linestage with superior volume control in the autoformer.
No affiliation with Vinnie (never used his products) but I myself am interested in this product as a linestage. I use Naim components and also Intact Audio's autoformers with a Berning amp.
I have found the autoformer to be superior to tube linestages I've owned. They don't lose dynamics or bass and provide superior tonal correctness. The cable paranoia is overblown and more than likely only an issue if you are running very long interconnects.
If you are seeking romance, then look for a tube linestage...I like preamps that use tubes like 6SN7 or older. They provide a "fat" sound in the right design.
Good luck! |
Using the forums for financial gain, under the guise of "providing information", is both unethical and inappropriate. And it's the usual suspects time after time.
Audiogon provides a classified section for vendors to sell their products. Georgelofi produces a passive preamp and he advocates going direct from DAC to amp bypassing PREAMP. Where's Georgelofi financial gain? In fact, he's offering his honest opinion and potentially hurting sales?? Rustler: Almarg and I have both told you have a great match to go direct, and adding an active pre is going to do nothing but colour the sound and put a hole in your pocket. This is true only if the signal from DAC is PERFECT and NOT colored. If not, adding a preamp can improve or degrade the original colored signal. Also spec (a great match) doesn't necessary equates to great sound. Otherwise all components with the same spec will sound the same and from my experience, it doesn't. Rustler, there's no definitive answer so only way to know is experiment forself. |
I believe technical questions are best handled by contacting the manufacturer(s) directly via private email.
Using the forums for financial gain, under the guise of "providing information", is both unethical and inappropriate. And it's the usual suspects time after time.
Audiogon provides a classified section for vendors to sell their products.
I guess we disagree. |
Yes Bdp24 that goes for everything active or passive from the source output to the poweramp input.
If impedances matching is not correct (Ohms Laws) and the current is compromised (Kirchoffs' Laws).
No amount of voodoo speak will solve the problem. This is why I asked Phd to name preamps that can drive better than the output of the OP's PS Audio Dac.
BTW: I don't know how passive came into this conversation, maybe it was just a bit of baiting?? The OP question was just "Is no preamp really better that a good preamp?"
Rustler: Almarg and I have both told you have a great match to go direct, and adding an active pre is going to do nothing but colour the sound and put a hole in your pocket.
Cheers George
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I should mention that I loved my Cary sli-80 integrated amp, so I wonder if a Cary Slp-03 or Slp-98L would be good choices for me. I'm coming off several surgeries and don't live close to any dealers with top rate gear, so getting out for many auditions is tough for me. |
This is getting beyond me, but I appreciate all the input. To summarize: I power Martin Logan Spires with a Spectron Musician III Mk 2. I also use PS Audio DirectStream and their Phono section. I would actually love suggestions as to what preamp under $5K would be a strong match. I listen to all kinds of music, and I love clarity, especially in the mid and upper ranges, more than all other acoustic qualities. |
Umm, maybe using the forums for financial gain?
Andrew9405 (Answers | This Thread) Hmm! So designers cannot participate in forums when they are not pushing their own products?? One believes in active and the other passive or no preamp with supporting arguments. Personally I find their posts valuable with ACCURATE information especially Atmasphere since I'm also a tube guy and believe in active preamps. |
Rustler ... I have a similar set up using Martin Logan and Spectron running both digital and analog sources directly for a while. I eventually added a tube line stage. While I cannot say the sound was better per your original question, I enjoy the flexibility of having a different presentation. I always like the analog source passing thru the line stage, but for digital it depends on how I want to feel or the music I am listening to. If I want to feel upbeat and engaged, the digital source goes directly to the amp and if I want to feel relaxed, I add the line stage to the signal path. Others might feel the opposite, but for me this is what happens. |
>>09-24-15: Knghifi
Where's the shame?<<
Umm, maybe using the forums for financial gain? |
[quote]However I'm advocate for using a preamp.
Some power amps need the drive to sound their best.[/quote]
I didn't ask you to recommend a preamp to the OP,
I asked you to name preamps that would drive better than the output of his PS Audio dac could do, after your statements above.
Cheers George
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I wish it were George. The interaction will be with only an un-buffered passive pre's volume control, then. Does that include those with optical attenuators (Lightspeed)? |
09-24-15: Andrew9405
Well, so far 2 of the predictable sellers have arrived.
Peter should shamelessly be along soon............ The 2 "sellers" are offering opinions and they are different but valid. Where's the shame? |
Georgelofi, you are not seriously asking me to recommend a preamp when I have no idea what amp or speakers the Op is using. You sir are asking me to put the horse before the cart. However I'm advocate for using a preamp. Detail as you seem to be hung up on as in your past posts does not necessarily result in an engaging or musical presentation and further there are many other aspects that define a good sounding system hopefully not excluding detail.
Cheers to you! |
Driving the inter-connect cable---what a concept!Maybe another reason why the sound of any given cable is so system-dependent---it's interacting with the volume control in the pre-amp of every system it's put in. This is either tongue in cheek, or your so wrong. Just in case it was not tongue in cheek. The volume pot in a preamp has nothing to do with the interconnect cable, as there is and active buffer between them, totally isolating the pot from the interconnects Cheers George |
Some power amps need the drive to sound their best. Phd, Please give the OP some preamp examples that would better the drive that his PS Audio dac gives direct into his amps? And his PS Audio Dac is not a passive volume control on it's output!! Cheers George |
Well, so far 2 of the predictable sellers have arrived.
Peter should shamelessly be along soon............ |
