Interconnect Directionality
Fascinating. I believe I found the Audio Bacon review: https://audiobacon.net/2019/05/27/iconoclast-cables-same-measurements-different-sound/?amp=1 The more I learn about this hobby, the more mysterious it becomes. Where does it end? |
That sounds like a winning plan. Is there a way to tell the direction of a wire without listening to it? E.g. can you identify the direction of the copper grains? The reason I ask is because it would be nice to know whether or not the signal and return wires are in unison or opposite without taking the wires apart and retwisting. |
I believe this is the PS Audio post you mention: https://forum.psaudio.com/t/belden-iconoclast-interconnects-and-speaker-cabling/2038 You weren’t kidding. It’s over 2,000 comments. |
Oh, I dunno, I read the first page of comments on the PS Audio thread on Iconoclast cables and am a little non-plussed. For any cable brand throughout history you can always find somebody somewhere who goes ape. 🦍 It’s the same with almost all audio component or device. I did not run across any discussion of directionality on the first page of comments. Was there any later in the discussion? Pop quiz - if there are no audio frequencies running through cables why is “skin effect” an issue? Free tweak for the first correct answer. |
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So the simple issue is that current flowing in one direction on a simple pure conductor meets a different resistance if that same amount of current flows in the opposite direction (over the same conductor). And the hypothesis continues that it is imparted by process of the conductor being drawn from its molten slog and formed into a solid. While we await the link to a peer reviewed article or even a thesis from an accredited institution, the poster who stated that electrons flow very slowly is 100% correct. However, the external links to the kook who tries to unexplain everything are not helpful. And here there are also some sideways discussions that delve into polarized vs. non-polarized circuits, or where on a conductor electrons carry the most charge, which is not the issue at hand. The other external links to authorities are usually someone in the audio industry hawking some wares (or someone hawking their own) or the recycling of the Pink Floyd anecdote. While they are probably #15 on my all time, I'd be more interested in what Tom Scholz has said. In the studio, there's too much goofballery and zero "science" to consider what they "discovered" as proof of any concept. While this sonic "phenomenon" somehow cannot be measured using instruments, it yet exists. One post stated specifically to measure the resistance of a wire in one direction and then measure it in another. While that is very much of an April Fool's joke, the serious consideration is that A/C would not exist if the amplitude of the voltage along a wire was not symmetric. A/C works as an energy source because of this symmetry. Discussions that cover outputs of a pre-amp into an amp or amp into speakers as being "scientific" mechanisms to measure this phenomena are speculative and further support of bias confirmation more than anything else. If it sounds "good", does not make it science. |
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OK, I didn’t want to do it but you forced my hand. Here’s the data sheets from HiFi Tuning website showing small but consistent resistance differences for various fuses, including stock fuses and their own fuses and other high end fuses. This is is really for the benefit of the newbies as this data has been discussed ad nauseam over the years. As The Moody Blues said, you decide which is right and which is an illusion. http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf |
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jea48 And your point is??? >>>>What do you mean, what is my point? I’m not 100% sure you’re following this discussion accurately. jea48 Question Is it the current that causes the wire in the fuse to melt or is it the energy from the EM wave? >>>>>Fair enough. Here’s a question for you - why do you think fuses are rated for different amperes? 2A, 3A, 5A, etc.? Another question for you - between the current and the electromagnetic wave what is the difference? |
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Uh, jea48, you haven’t been paying close attention. The HiFi Tuning website experience and common sense tells us that directionality of wire applies to AC circuits as well as DC circuits. In fact, I cannot off the top of my head think of a case where a wire or fuse is not (rpt not) in an AC circuit. You must Shirley be putting me on. We know that the magnetic fields and the electric fields associated with the electromagnetic waves traveling down the wire are orthogonal to the direction of the electromagnetic wave. This is nothing new or anything to be alarmed or concerned about. Its just Poynting and Heaviside stuff. It’s a red herring. In an AC circuit the signal obviously travels back and forth in the wire. Not sure what your argument is or why you’re arguing. |
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Going back to the OP's original post, I think there might be a rational argument for the difference in perceived sound. If the cables aren't shielded then you're running a couple of antennas that will be highly sensitive to external interference so small changes in position will result in differences in quality (like when you unplug them and turn them around). If you flip a coin three times and it comes up heads then you might think that the coin has a bias toward landing tails side down. The impact of the interconnect on sound reproduction can be down to the capacitance, inductance, shielding and quality of contact at each end. There is a possibility that the interconnects find a better contact one way round rather than the other so that might be something else to consider. From all of this discussion I think the impact of running unshielded interconnects has monumentally more impact than easing the flow of electrons through a conductor. I prefer to use balanced interconnects of a modest cost that cancel out most of that interference at the receiving end... and that's what recording and mastering studios prefer to do as well. |
Just two comments. Directionality in wire is independent of shielding. Directionality is audible and repeatable and transferable for any unshielded interconnect, speaker cable, power cord. If the cable or cord is shielded that overlays another direction related constraint which may or may not conform to the directionality of the wire. There is a 50% chance it won’t unless that particular cable has been controlled for directionality, I.e., respect has been given the inherent directionality of the wire. It just takes a little bit of planning. |
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Yes that's correct… I was referring to the original post that says
and my comment is that in most home environments running low level signals through unshielded wire is likely to have a far more detrimental effect than the direction of the wire. Personally I don't believe that the direction of the cable has any impact on the quality of the sound reproduced at the loudspeaker. However everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and I won't try to change yours. In my experience the capacitance of the cable (inherent in coax design) can effect the high frequency response due to the voltage divider it creates with the input impedance of the amplifier. As long as the capacitance is small enough then this will be above the range of human hearing. If you know the input impedance of your amplifier and the capacitance of the cable you can calculate what this will be and in most cases it won't be a problem. Personally I prefer to use balanced interconnects as the chassis ground is separate from the signal ground (which doesn't get passed at all) and common mode interference is cancelled out when the cold signal is subtracted from the hot. |
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Of course you can come up with ridiculous examples that are exceptions to the rule, like Kimber braided stranded cables. If the strands were arranged arbitrarily then some strands would be in the correct direction while some wouldn’t. That would be rather unsatisfactory in terms of outcome sonically. If the strands were all in the same direction Kimber cables would be directional. In the case of Audioquest stranded cables and power cords all the strands are controlled for directionality, “honoring the inherent directionality of the wire.” One needs to be conscious of wire directionality before undertaking the assembly of cables. The test of a good cable is that it IS directional. |
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I don’t know. Why don’t you tell me? From somewhere on the Audioquest website, “DIRECTIONALITYAll drawn metal strands or conductors have a non-symmetrical, and therefore directional, grain structure. AudioQuest controls the resulting RF impedance variation so that noise is drained away from where it will cause distortion. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. When applicable, arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For most models of AQ cable, the arrows not only indicate the direction that optimizes metal-directionality as part of Noise-Dissipation, but also indicates non-symmetrical attachment of shield and GND in order to optimize full-system performance.” |
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