Innuos - New Re-Clocker

I just recently returned a Innuos Zenith 3 with 2 TB SSD and after a few days with it I like it a lot and I’m ready to purchase one. With adding the Phoenix and cables it puts it at the very top of my budget.
SteveHuffs comments above sound a little off to me regarding his experience with the entry level Innuos server with the added Phoenix  out performing the stand alone Zenith 3 .
How is it the Phoenix re-clocker could bring the sound quality of the Zen Mini that far ?
Im just curious because of my time spent with the Zenith , it’s a hit with me and with all the other re-clocker converters on the market for much less of the price of the Phoenix I. wonder has anyone here done any direct comparisons?

@in_shore The general feedback on USB reclockers (inserted prior to the the DAC) is positive and owners are happy with the results achieved.

I doubt there are ’many’ direct comparisons to the Phoenix since it hasn’t been out that long AND as others have reported, there aren’t many units out there at this time. Further, most will likely be paired with another Innuos product.

I don’t see any reason why another brand of reclocker would not improve results when placed after an Innuos server/streamer. It is a reclocker’s stated / designed function. The same holds for the Phoenix paired with a non-Innuos server/streamer.

David I don’t have any experience with any in-line re-clocker though a previous dac I owed did re-clock the signal internally . It makes perfect sense they work and I would myself try one of those after market re-clocker / converters before shelling out 3200 bucks ,however who knows .

Innuos proprietary design features with their servers are smart and they may have developed something different with the Phoenix that other developers haven’t thought of or the Phoenix could be just another re-clocker in a nice looking box except for $3,200.00 .

Based on Innuos' focus in this area, their learning from developing the SE and then the Statement, one would expect upsides from their implementations and approach vis a vis the Phoenix. What they state regarding the linear supply + it's implementation, as well as the master clock, stand out (to me).

I've copied Innuos' 'summary points' regarding the Phoenix, below.

Given feedback from those who have directly compared the Zenith Mk3 + Phoenix to the Statement, I would expect the Phoenix to perform above the level of most reclockers out there.

Whether that differential/upside is enough AND/OR the corresponding price point is acceptable, is very much an individual decision/choice.

"The Phoenix USB offers in one unit the equivalent of 3 separate components: A USB regenerator, a linear power supply and an external master clock with its own linear power supply.

Innuos applied 3 main design approaches learning from their experience with the Innuos flagship music server, the STATEMENT:

 · The US B chip regenerating the signal contains no switching regulators. All 3 independent voltages to the chip originate from an independent linear power supply with further regulation provided by 3 sets of LT3045 regulators.

 · The use of a 3ppb OCXO clock running directly at 24MHz and connected via a board track just a couple of inches away from the US B chip. Therefore, no precision is lost within cables and connectors, as is the case when using an external master 10MHz clock with an additional 24MHz clock generator.

 · Two independent Statement-level linear power supplies, one dedicated to the OCXO clock and the other used for powering the US B chip/5V US B line."

Is there a DAC in any of these components, Statement, Zenith,  Zen? If not then you need to be cognizant of the DAC you use as some will reclock on all interfaces including USB so that would make the point of this reclocker moot. 

@djones51,

Good point on the ‘worthiness’ Phoenix re-clocker in the chain. The audible improvements or lack there off from Phoenix re-clocker would largely depend on the implementation of USB Audio interface in your DAC.

I will say that compared to the Zenith III, the Mini III with Reclocker brought me a little bit more body. Without the re-clocker the Zenith III wins over the Mini without question. With it, in my system, not really. I could have bought the Zenith III but went with the Mini III, Power Supply and Re-Clocker. Works for me, and if I upgrade to the Zenith III in a year or whenever I am sure the Phoenix will help that and it will be better than the Mini III with the Phoenix. As is I will be happy for a long while with this. Used a Sonos for the last several years. This is a HUGE upgrade. As I write this, I am listening to the Mini III and Phoenix. My power supply has not come in yet...but when it does I expect a little jump up again. If we talk cost, retail of the Mini III 1 TB, Power Supply and Phoenix come in at around ($1249 = $3149 + $699 = ) $5097. This is MORE than a Zenith III 1TB, yes, and for me, it added body and did the space thing better than the Zenith III alone. Makes sense too. It's not going to be as good as a Zenith III with Phoenix though. But that is a much more expensive option. Thanks. 

Oh and my DAC is quite nice. It's a $3500 module. I have a Vinnie Rossi L2iSE with the L2 DAC. The Re-Clocker does improve the sound dramatically with the Mini III going into the L2 DAC. Not sure why or how but I do not care as all I care about is the outcome. ; )

Here is my two cents;
The InnuOs Phoenix made my AQ DragonFly Cobalt sound many times more expensive. was shocked at the sound pouring out of my headphones. 
Home System:
DAC: Chord TT2; 
Server: Aurender N10;
Integrated Amp: Pass Labs int 250
Speakers: Dynaudio Confidence 30
Result:
I struggled to hear any difference let alone improvement.

I also have on deck my InnuOs Zen mkiii server and the Pheonix improved that slightly; what I heard was a jump in front to back depth and a sort of ease in the presentation, like increased liquidity is best way I can describe it; it was subtle though; I think my gear is pretty resolving and I can hear cable changes pretty easily; 


I think the efficacy of the Pheonix will be highly dependent on Dac input USB circuitry, and source USB port (obviously eh?)

I was shocked at how much a lowly dragonfly cobalt could sound; it’s as if I heard the pure performance of the tiny DAC chip itself for the first time;

Im bummed that USB implementation in any dac is still a thing that is subject to much variation and can make or break a dac; 

I think Chord has a robust internal reclocking and top class jitter rejection strategy that attenuated the otherwise obvious improvement I heard with the lesser DAC.
As always, ymmv

Yep, 

"From Vinnie Rossi on the L2 DAC module.

On-board FPGA buffer and femto-reclocking circuitry negates effects of jitter. Isolated input stages."

That is correct. Doesn't matter. This changes the sound and it's not a small difference. Again, I do not care how or why it's doing what it is doing, I just know what it is doing. I have a very resolving system and the differences are literally night and day here. 

So however it is working or whatever it is doing, does change the sound for the better. It's not even up for debate to those who heard it here and I would not have spent money on it if it did not do these things. 

So while I agree that it should not be doing anything, it does. ; ) 

@dpac996 Can you share the cables you are using (including your USB and headphone cables and headphones) since you’ve shared your components? Thanks. - David.

I am using an Audioquest Diamond and Forest. Stock power cable for the Pheonix (and will not buy an aftermarket). I was reading a review of the Chord M Scaler and there was a paragraph there that explained EXACTLY what I find the Phoenix is doing here...

A quote from Audio Bacon on the M Scaler...

"Firstly, you’ll notice how much more depth and focus lays before you. Without the Hugo M Scaler, it sounds completely flat, a bit fuzzy, and lean. It doesn’t have the proper shine or clarity – and comes off a bit grainy and edgy. Moreover, string plucks also don’t have that palpable reverb. It’s a more confused and splashy sound.

Aside from an incredibly spacious sound – the Hugo M Scaler tacks on weight, dimensionality, and resolution to everything."

That is exactly what the Phoenix does to my system when added to the Mini MKIII. It's crazy really. 

Not surprising dpac996 most modern well implemented DAC’s have strenuous noise reduction and reclocking as the clock closest to the DAC chip will give the very best results. Even the $2000 Benchmark DAC 3 isolates then reclocks it has one of the best jitter reduction implementations with its UltraLock 3 used on all inputs. Another thing to remember about jitter if it has been put into the stream with an ADC nothing can resolve it and in your home network that digital stream is created by remodulation in your $120 modem. 

@david_ten
sure. Speaker cables: Transparent Audio Super Speaker Generation 5
usb cable: Audience Au24 /se and a wire world (forget model)
xlr: Analysis Plus Super crystal oval something . I love this cable. Had bunch of xlrs over time. Something just right about AP

power cable to isotek Aquarius evoiii: Shunyata NRV10
power cable to Aurender: Analysis Plus power somethingPower cable to pass: stock! Yep. Can’t beat it and tried Cardas Clear Beyond, Isotek Optimum, others. Just perfect as is. All the others do weird things to the midrange. I’ll probably keep trying stuff but so far nothing has made me want to replace stock.

Circuit to system: dedicated 20A; have a Furetech super special job sitting in my drawer and PS audio upgraded Hubble hospital grade in the wall.

Had Cardas clear reflection speaker and interconnect prior to this stuff above.

rack is maple shades Samson
10 Vicoustic acoustic diffusers

Tomorrow I take delivery of m scaler...looking forward to testing that out!

@djones51
i think the Aurender n10 has a super clean USB implementation because I heard no difference with that into the chord tt2.

I would be curious if others tried this combo.

@dpac996   Thank you! I'm also an Analysis Plus fan. Still use a couple of their power cables.

The AQ DragonFly is something. I have the Red. Once I get back into portable headphones, the Cobalt is a given.

Looking forward to your findings with the M Scaler in the chain.

@dpac996,

Thank you for posting your results. I am not surprised by the outcome given your great system. I am staying put with my N10/EMM Labs DA2 combo 😊

Btw, I totally understand what @stevehuff is saying;
The way the improvement has been described (I read a ton about this reclocker) was what I heard massively on my Cobalt; I was super looking forward to a similar thing on the home system. I did hear that magic a bit on the InnuOs Zen and would have kept that if I was planning on Zen forever, but I just love the Aurender as is; it is a really great piece. I really like InnuOs and loved the zen for 5 months give or take.
If InnuOs released a variant with this reclocker circuit board stuffed inside it would be a class leader; They could still sell the standalone but for Pete’s sake they should stick it in the next Zen series and save us audiofools another usb cable, another power cable, another box.
peace all

Yes, he said the music sounded better with the reclocker in the chain. 

@dpac996 —— If InnuOs released a variant with this reclocker circuit board stuffed inside it would be a class leader; They could still sell the standalone but for Pete’s sake they should stick it in the next Zen series and save us audiofools another usb cable, another power cable, another box.——-

That Innuos device you are describing already exists. It’s called Innuos Statement 

hello @thyname
A 4TB Statement costs an eye watering ~$14,400 USD. A top Zenith 4TB + a Phoenix = $8,800 USD;

So, for approximately $5,600 USD more you get 2 chassis, a much more sporting power supply, heavy case work etc in the Statement. I assume they even tricked out further the implementation of the Re-clocker circuitry inside the Statement chassis;

If the Innuos deleted the Phoenix USB Re-clocker toroid, case, and all the extra parts to make a standalone unit, just focusing on the triple linear supply and USB Re-clocker circuit board itself (with the oven controlled oscillator on it) from the BOM of the Phoenix they would be in the hundreds of bucks of parts only;


The trick for them is integrating it in the Innuos Zen series chassis along with the same motherboard, which is a COTS PCBA from a PC vendor; The USB and Ethernet receptacles are directly mounted on the PCBA;

I have had custom Com Express Type 6 carrier boards designed for me such that the manufacturer removed exact USB and RJ-45 jacks (seen in boards like the InnuOs zen pc motherboard) in favor of parts from JST or SAMTEC, from which we would plug a mating board to wire connector and route the high speed differential signals over to secondary break out boards for other purposes;

InnuOs could totally do that here (add a larger overall VA transformer to power the USB stuff) and up the cost of the Zen series maybe $1,000 - $1,500 and still profit; Single chassis, lower costs for all; I can’t see them asking their PC supplier to add in the custom re-clocking circuitry but it is pretty trivial to break those signals out to a sub-system.

I am totally not picking on InnuOs at all; Just dreaming of ways to get the highest performance USB interface out there baked in a server that is around the ~5K mark;  

IMHO i’m sure the statement sounds incredible but boy is it turbo expensive!

I have a question about the re-clocker; So pretty much all modern DACs are async, where the DAC clocks data at its own rate from the USB host (as opposed to receiving bursts of data at whatever rate the HOST sends them);

When the reclocker was in the loop, async DACs still appeared as async to either the Aurender, windows PC, or InnuOs zen (as if the re-clocker was totally not there at all); I assume it's passing back the USB enumeration credentials back to the main USB HOST; 

So I guess what I have a question about is the role of the expensive oven controlled 3 parts per billion accuracy oscillator in the phoenix; I assume this clock pulls data from the HOST (music server), but the attached DAC is still operating in asycn mode pulling data according to its own clock-- unless the re-clocker re-configures the operating mode of the USB dac such that the re-clocker pushes data. 

Can someone please pipe in that has a clear understanding of what is going on here? TIA!

Some of it has to do with the DAC but in asynchronous mode it’s more of a push- pull. I am only a bit familiar with the DAC I have the Benchmark DAC3B it will follow sample rate changes. So in this case it would follow the Phoenix but only until it reaches the buffer, once there the DAC3B master clock takes it to send to the conversion subsystem it is the second asynchronous transfer that eliminates jitter in the transfer from USB to the conversion subsystem. In my case the Phoenix is just a worthless extra component reclocking data from the streamer to simply be reclocked by the Benchmark, other DACs might do it different. 

whelp the internet sure is a dandy thing

http://www.the-ear.net/how-to/power-supply-design-innuos-statement

looks like that’s exactly what Innuos did; They pulled the USB signal off the PC motherboard and piped it over to the reclocker;

~14K is a lot of scratch for power supplies, a small form factor computer, ssd's, teac optical drive, and spiffy cases; SHEESH!

I'm sorry, I'm sure it is covered, but the PhoenixUSB is USB in as well as USB out?

Am I understanding that correctly??

@erik_squires 
the Phoenix device from InnuOs is a USB reclocker; So yes, USB in and out; No other interface. No DAC.
When it is in the path, the only thing the HOST registers is the enumerated DAC; 

No one answered the question of whether a Phoenix has any effect on a DAC implemented with asynchronous USB.  How could it since the DAC is supplying the clock?

So I went ahead and asked the question originally posted by @dpac996  then others, in terms of reclocking and a asynchronous USB DAC, directly to Innuos. This is the reply I received from Nuno copy/paste:

----------------
The PhoenixUSB does mainly three things:​

1. It regulates the 5V line from the source, helping remove some noise from the source itself

2. It replaces the 5V power by one of the included Statement-level linear power supplies existing on the PhoenixUSB

3. It reclocks the USB signal with a very high-end OCXO clock, which is powered by its own power supply. Do not confuse this with the clocking for the audio signal, we are not touching the audio signal at all. We are reclocking the USB commnunication between the source and the DAC. You could even connect a USB drive to the PhoenixUSB if you like, although that probably would not make sense - this is just to illustrate the PhoenixUSB does not work at the audio level but at the USB protocol level.​

If you can hear a difference? Given all the feedback we had so far and the numerous shows we have done A/B, it is 100% guaranteed you will hear the difference right in the first seconds of hearing a track. it's not a subtle change...​
Hope this helps.

Best Regards, 

Nuno Vitorino
Director

Sweet. Thanks for following up!

@djones51: read Nuno's reply on #3:
-----
Do not confuse this with the clocking for the audio signal, we are not touching the audio signal at all. We are reclocking the USB commnunication between the source and the DAC......the PhoenixUSB does not work at the audio level but at the USB protocol level

So you are trying to save my money and soul? What exactly are you trying to accomplish on this thread?

If you believe that "any decent modern DAC" will remove the noise, then that's fine, stick to your DAC, and don't worry about the source. 

USB doesn’t need a better clock. It needs a better signal transition, with low noise and galvanic isolation.

The "eye" pattern.

This has nothing to do with having an atomic clock in the isolator.

Every true reclocker I know of was for non USB end points, and would do ASR conversion.

That is, they would literally replace the bits coming in with new bits at a new sample rate.

Well I’m going to actually listen to the Phoenix myself,..

I happened to come across a pod cast by a online reviewer by the name of Darko , his interview is with the head of research and development for Innuos it fills in some question about their line of servers including the Phoenix. My apologies you’ll have to search for it yourself.
djones I’m going to actually listen to the Phoenix including another brand to see for myself in stead of just guessing .

@in_shore,

Good call, looking forward to your findings with Phoenix re-clocker! 

in_shore that is the best method; Analysis paralysis can stifle progression, 
Let us know your findings;

Right on , I just put a deposit down on the Zenith 3 which I’ll take delivery next week and I’ll arrange to take home the Phoenix . I’m also arranging to borrow a AudioByte USB Hydra-Z with power supplies and I’m going to compare them including one other USB re-clocker from China , Matrix Audio I’ve never heard of it however apparently it’s been popular among some .

Djones I believe it is the Matrix X-Spdif 2 ,I’m borrowing it ,  his email reads Matrix Audio 2 with I2s out .
Though I fully believe the Matrix Audio will be severely disadvantaged wth comparisons to the AudioByte and Innuos I’m just curious about its performance along with the owner of the Matrix, a computer audio guy .

Hydra Z by Audiobyte is well known brand in Europe. Very high quality and value driven products for budget conscious audiophiles. The man behind the company is an engineer named Nicolae Jitariu who was also involved in the development of DAC modules for MSB. His reference line consist of Rockna DAC’s retailing for $16K in US through a Canadian distributor.

PS: I used to own Rockna Signature Balanced DAC....one of the finest R2R DAC I had the pleasure to audition in my system.