I recently discovered the benefits of isolation. Don't know how many of you are familiar with
Barry Diament's
recommendations for his hip joints. The recommendation for the economical DIY set up worked well for my stereo; (lightly inflated bike innertubes, wooden egg holders supporting stainless steel balls).
A month ago I bought Isoacoustic Oreo's. 3 per component (weight appropriate) and was very impressed...at first. After several days of settling my music sounded dull and lifeless. I reread
the optimal weight recommendations, re-calibrated weight limits with temporary improvements. To my disappointment I realized the Oreo's could only be compressed (especially after the suction seal was formed between them and the component or platform the component sat on). Sure they rocked in all directions, but they didn't glide in all directions. Only horizontal isolation was taking place so I coupled the Oreo's with Barry's economic hip joints which has greatly improved the SQ. I'm loving it but I still feel there's room for improvement. Mainly because I own the Hfiman HE-6SE HP's and I run them through my power amp's speaker taps. So I want Barry's upgraded hip joints under my amp. I'm interested in Ingress Audio's vibration isolation rollerblocks.
http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/products-and-services.php I've looked up info about their level 2's and 3's but specifics on their differences aren't given. I know Barry says the blocks should be machined smooth to a certain degree. I left a message with Ingress, but I'm impatient and wondering if perhaps the level 2's aren't as smooth as the 3's. The smoother, the greater the improvements.
My question is does anyone know the differences between their Level 2 and Level 3 rollerblocks?
Stock interconnects, power cables, power cords, and fuses work "pretty good", yet that doesn't stop audiophiles from spending far more on them than would the cost of installing a set of roller bearings under every component in their system. I haven't tried a set with my Townshend Rock turntable, as I have a set of Seismic Pods under it. They provide isolation in even the vertical plane, the one limitation/failing of roller bearings.
Heck, the Ingress Level 2 V2 is $95 CAD for a set of three cups and ball bearings. It is superior to the twice-as-much Symposium Roller Block Jr., and WAY cheaper than even a single Stillpoints foot.
Geoff, I’m going to guess the spinning platter of turntables is the argument to be made against employing roller bearings under them. CD/SACD players also have spinning platters, but of much less moving mass.
Geoff's excellent post has refreshed my memory. The concept of the roller bearing is a compromise between maximum isolation capabilities, and practical considerations. A set of three ball bearings between two flat, very hard, very smooth surfaces would provide the maximum isolation possible. Those surfaces could be the bottom of the component to be isolated (or something harder and smoother than it, onto which the component is placed---no rubber feet; put something with no compliance between the component bottom and the surface. Barry Diament recommends ceramic tiles, available for pennies at home stores) and another flat, hard, smooth surface (again, that could be a ceramic tile). But that would make possible the component sliding right off the rack or shelf it is sitting on.
For practical considerations, a pair of bowl-shaped structures are used in place of the flat ones; the bowl of course makes the component sliding off the ball bearings impossible. Now, the shallower the incline in the bowl, the better the isolation. When the ball bearings are presented with vibrations, they move microscopically, being forced to climb the incline of the bowl. The bowls' incline thwarting the movement of the ball bearings creates damping, a thing very different from isolation. So, the shallower the bowl, the gentler the incline, and the greater the isolation. That's why the larger bowl carved into the Ingress cups makes them superior in design to the Symposium.
The original Symposium Roller Block used cups on only the bottom, with the ball bearing in each of the three cups contacting the flat surface of the component to be isolated (Symposium makes little stainless steel plates for use under components, for the ball bearing to slide across). The Roller Block Jr. (and the original Ingress) used a cup on both the bottom and top, the ball bearing keeping them apart from one another. Barry's Hip Joint design called for a bowl on only the bottom, for maximum isolation. A cup on the top does, however, provide insurance against the component sliding of the bottom cup. If you want to play it safe, go with the double-bowl design.
The degree of hardness and smoothness of the bowl also effects its' isolation capabilities, the harder and smoother the better. That's why the 7075 aluminum of the Ingress V.2 and V.3 is superior to those made of the softer 6061. The V.2 and 3 all also polished with finer grit than other bearings.
As for cost, the bearings are sold in sets of three. Those sets are far cheaper than even one footer offered by other companies making isolation products. I agree with @rsf507, they ARE dirt cheap!
Like I said, (I) read these forums to learn. So what’s the answer @geoffkait? I’ll take a stab, increases wow, hum and/or flutter? (shrug). Enlighten me :)@elizabeth dirt cheap is ALWAYS welcome!
I also have a PS Audio P5 power plant. Would anyone bother to put rollers under it?
As I indicated in a previous post, I do use the RollerBlocks with Power Supplies / Conditioners. I've used the Level 3s with my SR PowerCell 12SE with good results.
FYI, I use a combination of four types of footers for my components, and since I am short a set, I'm using the SR MIG 2.0 footers with the PowerCell (at present).
What about a turntable
I do not have analog components, therefore cannot comment directly.
I also have a PS Audio P5 power plant. Would anyone bother to put rollers under it? What about a turntable? I plan to get rollers for the speakers at a later time.
@ nonoise, for any statement made, there will be critics AND supporters. Music and the hobby of trying to make the SQ the best we can, with the means we have, is a SUBJECTIVE experience. These forums introduce and educate in areas we may never have thought about. A while back, I sat my husband down to listen to Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture on my stereo. I could hear the highest notes of the triangle (or whatever instrument it was) but he couldn't. He can hear the triangle when our grand daughters ring it at our house. I found that interesting (and summed it up to the recorded triangle being too soft-lower db). I wish naysayers who post on forums would TRY before they reject (or keep silent) and admit that if they can't hear something doesn't mean nobody else can either. I'll sit my husband down for a re-listen to the 1812 Overture after I get the Ingress roller blocks installed and see what happens :)
I's still waiting for the same responses I got when I brought up Ingress Audio on another thread some time ago. A couple of posters claimed whatever sat on the bearings would roll right off and couldn't believe it would work.
The reason vibration isolation is important is that low frequency vibration and forces related to that vibration affects the audio signal, including but not limited to the wiring in the wall, the wall outlets, the wall plates and the wall itself, wire in cables and power cords, internal wiring and electronic elements in the components and speakers. The audio signal itself is not (rpt not) a vibration per se or at least it SHOULD NOT BE but is affected by forces F of external vibration. Like magnetic field lines on a magnet are affected by rapidly moving the magnet manually.
The entire building is subjected to continuous seismic waves that are produced by many things including Earth crust motion, wave action on shore lines, trucks, buses, subways, cars, construction, footfall, wind. The entire building is forced to move in many directions. Seismic waves have six directions of motion, including three rotational directions. The horizontal plane x-z represents the other two directions 🔛, vertical y is the sixth direction 🔝. The three rotational directions are around the x, y and z axes.
The analogy to seismic waves and its influence on a building and everything inside the building is a boat ⛵️on the ocean when a waves in one direction passes under it. The boat moves vertically, sideways and also rotates back and forth as the wave passes under it. Waves in other directions affect the boat similarly but the boat moves in different directions according to the direction of the other waves. In order to reduce or eliminate forces F that seismic waves produce on the audio signal the entire audio system should be isolated, decoupled from the building. An object will remain at rest unless acted on by an external force. I’m disregarding acoustic waves in the room for this part of the explanation.
Roller bearings are interesting because they are capable of isolating the component in several directions of motion, low in cost, depending on how the roller bearings are designed. The most simple design is a cup with a flat bottom that has small diameter base so the ball can not move very far. Three of these roller bearing assemblies will provide good isolation in the horizontal plane and in the twist rotational direction around the vertical y axis. If the cup is concave the component can be isolated against forces in the other two rotational directions. The roller bearings are not effective in the vertical direction, well, perhaps a bit, never say never. The vertical direction can be easily handled by springs, very effective in the vertical.
Materials for the cup and bearing should be chosen with the goal of keeping friction very low, I.e., smooth very hard surfaces.
Thanks a lot everyone for your input. I've ordered 4 sets of the level 3's.
Barry said, "In fact, outside of digital gear, they may make the
largest difference when placed under speakers. When I first tried them
under my Magnepans I said that by comparison, having the speakers on the
floor was to have
them “bound and gagged.”
Which components did you guys isolate 1st, 2nd, etc.?
There are many ways to skin a cat. I use those heavy one inch high glass candle holders for the base and either Super Balls or some appropriately sized ball made of glass, maybe a glass marble, or other very hard material for the balls. Super Balls are 1” diameter type sold in bubble gum machines. I Even if the surface of the base is not concave roller bearings will work for the horizontal plane. Hardness and smoothness of surfaces, I.e. low friction, are the critical factors. The best isolation is when there is great ease of motion. By the way cryo’d, heat tempered high-carbon steel is much harder than the best aluminum. Like my springs.
Great posts above, especially @bdp24 ’s which covers it all.
I’ve been using the Level 3s (v1 and v2) under all of my components: from the front-front end of my computer audio gear through to my DAC.
I originally ordered the Level 3s and Level 2s (both version 1s) for comparative purposes and it was clear that the Level 3s were the way to go.
BTW, I’m using my original sets of Level 2s under my linear power supplies, a passive power conditioner, etc. HOWEVER, the current Level 2s look like the original Level 3s and are likely far superior to the original 2s.
I still recommend going with the current version of Level 3s.
I bought some Ingress Audio V3 which I’m told are just a bit taller than the V2’s from a dealer close to me and use them under several components and just find them superb. I had been using the Symposium Jr’s but find these actually have a more open sound. Found out about them from a dealer I was visiting when saw them underneath some of his gear. With a small discount they are like 50% of the Symposium which I like but again like these even better. YMMV
@mewsickbuff, I can help ya’ll. Not that I want the credit, but it may have been I who brought Ingress Engineering to the attention of Audiogoners a few years back. I had read Barry Diament’s writings on the subject of isolation, and found his argument persuasive. So I bought myself a couple of sets of the Symposium Acoustics’ Roller Block Jr’s. They are a fine product (as are all of SA’s), but I couldn’t help noticing that the design of the Jr. was quite a bit different than Barry’s Hip Joint design. In contrast, the much higher priced "original" Roller Block did adhere to Barry’s idea of a single cup and ball bearing.
So I did some more investigating, and came upon a forum upon which Barry’s ideas were being discussed. I was not alone in my quest for perfection! A group of DIY’ers had come to the attention of Michael of Ingress Engineering. He was making what was essentially a knock-off of the Symposium Jr. (no offence Michael ;-), and selling his version for about half the price of the Symposium. The only difference I could see was the Ingress wasn’t anodized black, being just natural aluminum. The Ingress was about 1.5" in diameter to the Symposium’s 1.875", no big deal. The diameter of the bowl appeared to be identical, so I ordered some. Sure enough, the two were essentially the same. They were both made of 6061 aluminum, and polished smooth. Since the Ingress is non-anodized, you can see your reflection in the bowl!
But being perfectionists, forum members pointed out to Michael that Barry’s Hip Joint design called for a much larger bowl to be carved into the cup. The larger the bowl, the shallower the incline the ball bearing must climb when confronted with vibration (the basic idea of roller bearing isolation), and the lower the resonant frequency and greater isolation does the roller bearing provide. Barry’s design also was just a single cup with a ball bearing, not the cup-over-a-cup design of both the Symposium Jr. and the Ingress. To his credit, Michael went to work and created a second model, one just as Barry Diament had described and machined locally for himself.
The second model was a single cup, with a bowl of much larger diameter carved into the cup. The cup was machined out of the harder 7075 aluminum, and polished to a finer degree. Now we’re talkin’! I got myself a set of those, and man are they great! At the time Michael was selling the new model for just a little more than the original; only one cup cut down on cost, but the 7075 aluminum cost more, as does the time and effort expended polishing the bowl to a smoother, more friction-free finish.
Now having all the roller bearings I needed for my system, I stopped paying attention. Your post lead me back to the Ingress Engineering website, and I see Michael is currently offering two models (plus a larger one for loudspeakers), the improved one now called Mk.2, an even newer one MK.3. Both are single cup of the same size, both machined out of 7075 aluminum, and both have the same size bowl. The cheaper one is anodized black, so I’m assuming the pricier one has been polished smoother, but that’s just a guess. I have no apprehension in recommending either, or both! Buy a set of each, and compare them for yourself. You may end up with the pricier one under your source component, the cheaper under your pre-amp.
I'll beat Geoff Kait to the punch by pointing out that the roller bearing provides isolation in all planes but the vertical. In the vertical, it acts a coupler, not an isolator. To get isolation in that plane, you must look elsewhere. Geoff just happens to sell cute little springs which will do that for you ;-).
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