In the market for a plasma.........suggestions?

Well....I took the plunge and bought a Pioneer PDP 5070 plasma that should arrive tomorrow. Man I can't wait it's killing me! Been over at avs forum for suggestions of burn in and setup....great advice there. If this thread isn't already dead, do any audiogoners have setup suggestions or initial burn in advice? Thanks for all the help.

I have been at avsforum for 7 years. I have read 100's and 100's of posts re. the Toshibas. (the A1 and the XA1) The model I have has none of the problems everybody was talking about.i.e.---not slow--no color aberrations--excellent hdmi handshake.--Once "ANY-VIDEOPHILE" has seen these new formats--HD-DVD or BD,(BD= blue ray) they will find it hard to watch SD discs. I paid 399 for mine and I rent from Netflix-- (They rent both formats)--- Remember these new formats have put DVD back in the lead over Sat. or Cable's HD image and since this thread started and continued "about PQ," FEEEEDDD your display these new formats.----'Cause if you ain't; you're just watching,'TV'.----More on BD; there is a thread on BD vs. HD_DVD at avs. DEAD EVEN in PQ.--It's just that HD_DVD is cheeper than BD,right now.

Just last night I picked up the Tosiba XA1KN-- (Sept build). From above; my displays are: the Mits 65815 and the Sony Ruby. I only watched one movie--(twice) Now in my case the dif between 480p 720p and 1080i are huge!! 480 and 720 are crap, compared to 1080i. DON"T buy a HD- player unless your display has an HDMI. Hooked by component cables---the player WILL NOT allow 1080i,so there.--There is a resolution toggle between the 3 choices.At the lower resolutions the Tosh. ain't much to write home about. My Arcam 27 is pretty great; compared to the Tosh's 480p and 720p.(i.e. the Arcam has a much better upconverter/ deinterlacer--. BUT, now that I've seen HD-DVD at 1080i--- hi=def on HBO pales---AND by a huge margin!!!

That's a great suggestion Rysa4. It's not just a matter of finding the best price. Problems definitely DO happen, and enough of us have been burned by needing to return a defective unit before (e.g. claims that it was never received back, rediculous restocking fees, buyer pays all freight charges, etc.).

In the long run it might be better to buy it at Costco. Now I wish they'd just carry that Panny (hey, that rhymes).

Enjoy,
Bob

Actually, some of the online retailers offer better customer service as far as repair and returns than Brick and Mortar stores-- a large swathe of a general comment to be sure, but easy to assess-- ask any retailer wherever they may be, what their dead/stuck pixel return policy is and go from thewre. The variance in answers may surprise. Also-- get it in wiriting-- or at least see who is willing to write anything. Soundslike overkill- but you dont want to be looking at a display with a red pixl near the center for instance--it happens.

Is it still a wise decision to also purchase the after market warantees when buying a plasma? Do the newer plasma's still suffer from issues that will need warantee work within 2 years?

I'm also interested in the Panny TH-42PX60U, and see great prices from several on-line merchants (@$1300). Or is it worth it to buy from a local store (@$300-500 more) where you can bring it back easily if/when something goes wrong.

Thanks,
Bob

After a ton of research, I just purchased a SONY KDL-46XBR3 LCD TV, with 1080p capability for my office. I was going to get Plasma (Panasonic, etc) but since I will be hooking my laptop to the TV to give client presentations, the higher resolution capabilities and computer-friendliness of the Sony won me over. While doing paperwork this weekend at the office, I had the TV on - big mistake - I got very little work done. The picture in High Def was amazing, to say the least. I was truly in AWE of how good the picture was - no artifacts, no problems at all.

I then went home to my 65" Hitachi Diamond Series rear-projection HD TV and found myself yearning for the better picture of the Sony. I had been perfectly content with the Hitachi prior to the Sony LCD, but now that I see what is possible visually, I'm afraid the Hitachi may have a shorter life than originally intended. I just have to wait until the LCDs get bigger and less pricey.....

Question about the Panasonic 60 vs. 600 models. I've seen the 60s but not the 600s in store displays. Don't know if it's poor setup or endemic to the budget model, but I've observed mild problems with jagged razoring along edges during motion sequences. Are the 600 models any better in this respect?

Your price range will keep you from true 1920 X 1080 Hi def plasmas which run $10,000. For the best plasmas in the $3000 range (1366 X 768) the new 50 inch Panasonic, Pioneer (NEC screen), and LG models are the ones to check out.

One thing is for certain Brad, you will be far more critical about TV's looking at them in store than once you have one at home.

There are so many different technologies right now that it becomes near impossible to select a TV. That said, I suspect most are very good and once you make your choice you'll be.

Well, after reading up on the Panasonic plasma's, I found out that the Panasonic professional models do have more adjustments such as the gamma level. Went over to my local BB to look at displays, and noticed a Pioneer 5070 model that looked very nice. Has anyone had a chance to compare a Panasonic 60u to the Pioneer 5070 and with what results? Thanks.

Does anyone know if the Panasonic pro models(9uk) have a wider range to adjust the pq than the commercial models(60u)? I thought that I read that before, but would like a confirmation. Thanks.

Thanks to all who have given suggestions/advice. I'm awaiting delivery of the Oppo 970 dvd and will making the plasma decision soon. The HD dvd player looked nice at first, but have received mixed reviews and still needs to mature IMO. Have been out of town and while visiting my father, noticed that he now has a Hitachi plasma monitor in his office which looked great while watching the Colts game. I'm torn between Panasonic and Hitachi plasma. Which brand would you all go with and why? Thanks.

I see Panasonic just dropped the MSRP of the 60U to $1800. The price of even good branded plasma is crashing through the floor.

Sorry, Undertow, but the technologies are very different in operation which is why I drew the distinction. The Three-Chip LCD rear-projection and LCOS both indeed do produce great pictures and resolution, but I have yet to see an LCD flat panel over about 25" that I'd buy or recommend. The larger they get, the grainier, and they all seem to have that "cartoonish" look to the colors. Reproduction of blacks continues to be a problem. For flat panels, I'll stick with plasma. And yes, I am critical.
TVAD, I appreciate the fact that you've had direct experience in the "pros;" more insight into the topic always helps. Good info.

Whether or not LCD bulb changes are truely possible by a consumer or not is a matter of debate. Know anyone who has actually changed one?

Burn in in plasma is basically a myth as far as current residential displays. LCds form of "burn in" is MUCH more common, which is an uneveness in image light/contrast due to bulbs malfunctioning. Extremely common.

Soundsmith1
I was not trying to get confusing and criticle, basically people would see the sets as LCD from sony.. excuse the exact term.. But I kinda was stating 2 seprate by Saying the "3 Panel LCD " from sony and the SXRD from sony, I just blended the statements together... As far as the picture being worse or better is gonna be tuff to prove one way or the other and money is a factor.. Mostly the new LCD's cost more than Plasma as well, and I have seen them tweeked with just as good of picture and not the downfalls of Burnt images, and Simple Bulb changes can save the LCD a plasma fails and its panel is done from my understanding. Sorry for the confusing post.

Tvad - I've worked for ABC (in NYC & Hollywood), channel 11 in NYC, CNN and several multimedia/post production companies in NYC, LA and ATL with full blown recording and editing studio departments. I can tell you the decision to purchase plasmas, cameras, speakers and a myriad of other studio equipment is rarely based on best of breed performance criteria. It's all about the business deal. What manufacturer can supply the studio with the broadest range of equipment at the best package price. It's about leveraging economies of scales and lowering the number of vendors you have to manage. See Procurement 101 for further details. Basing an equipment purchasing decision on what the pros use is not always as compelling as it seems.

Confessions first--I'm a HD junkie. I've had HD in my house for 6/7 years. Even after all that newness I still watch "whatever" in HD as a first choice.
I had the Monster 2000 near 5/6 years ago. I had the Pioneer Elite pro 119 at the time. The Monster helped it and made the purchase worthwhile. (Back then I had front projector for HD.) When I got my present Mits. the Monster did't do jack;period.--So I'm only stating what worked for me, and what didn't--.As far as pure PQ; I'll bet the Toshiba HD DVD player (hd disc) will beat any SD player. Sure I know this is un unfair comparison. Right now my AV spending habit is in remission. To bad these guys couldn't get together and share the market,instead of mucking it up. They had this kind of debacle just before DVDs came to market. As far as plasma goes--I can't go smaller than my 65" I already own.

Right on, Bradz! Since you have Maggies, you're obviously an audiophile, so you "look before leaping," and you're wise. The surge protectors with advanced line filtration, like the Monster, clean-up the picture quality because they eliminate AC line noise and stabilize voltage, either of which can have negative effects on picture quality (and of course sound in a good system). I use the Monster surge protectors with "Clean Power" when I do a system, because they work and I can get a decent price on them. Regarding the Oppo 971, I haven't tried that combo, so I'd go with the recommendation from the folks who have. The 970, as you've read, is a very nice unit for the money. Though Toshiba typically builds good, reliable products I don't think I'd invest in an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player yet. They're still in the "teeth-cutting" stage.

Okay, Undertow, let's get the technologies straight. You gave kudos to the Sony SXRD, and I strongly agree, however the SXRD is Sony's tweak of LCOS, not LCD! Liquid Crystal on Silicon (LCOS) is actually my preferred of the "new" technologies for RPTV, CRT RPTV still being number one for many reasons. Why? Recently The Perfect Vision, after testing one, said that the SXRD had resolution and black level equivalent to the best CRT RPTVs!?! My experience as well. LCOS TVs do offer great resolution and picture quality and prices are coming down. JVC's tweak is called D-ILA, or Direct Image Light Amplifier. In any case I prefer these to DLP or LCD RPTVs, with an honorable mention to Sony's new three-chip LCD RPTV, which is outstanding for the money, but as deep as a CRT RPTV and costs more. LCD flat panels, if they're over 25", IMHO, suck. There has been no significant break-through in this technology nor do most experts predict one. The retailers are pushing them now since plasmas have come down in price, so the LCD flat panels are the new "cash cows," but one can do better for less with a plasma. I also agree with Dawgbyte that Hitachi plasmas are overall the best popular price displays I've seen, but I know that the Panasonics get good reviews as well. (They all have pros and cons.) The absolute, hands-down best plasma I've ever seen is a Runco, pricey, but probably worth it. And to Tvad, the "pros" use those because they likely get them for little or no cost; that's the way this industry works. If you mean the custom installers, they're going for availability and mark-up, not performance (generally).

I used a monster cable surge protector with my sony crt years ago and it made a big difference. Avguygeorge....Why do you think there isn't as much of a difference when using a conditioner with a HD set compared to a crt set? Thanks also for the suggestion of the Toshiba HD dvd player....I've read positive comments about it and didn't consider it because I thought that it wouldn't work with SD dvd's, but it's good to know that it will. It would be nice to know how the Toshiba's pq compared to something like a Oppo 970 pq. Thanks for the suggestion for the NEC plasma Unclejeff. I wished that there was somewhere I could see it with my own eyes though! Funny that you mentioned how people put their displays over a fireplace Soundsmith1...I've never understood why someone would have a display so high and with possible neck strain, instead of the recommended center of view to the center of a display. My wall for a display is free of a fireplace. The plasma would hang above a four shelf (34-36" high) rack in between the speakers. I've read that the Oppo 971 is known for not working well with Panasonic because of its Faroudja chipset...is that correct? The Oppo 970 though may be a better match with the Panny because of the different chipset. Sorry that I didn't mention it before, but my main purposes is to free up the space between the magnepans, therefore not interfering with the soundstage like it is now with my crt and to have a cleaner look. Thanks.

Chazzbo - I need to set the record straight on something you said.

..."but I am amzed at what lower end Hitachi and Samsung can do."

Hitachi plasma TV's are NOT lower end. The Hitachi brand is is less well known in the US, but they are huge in Japan and the rest of Asia. Hitachi plasma screens are made in the same factory as Pioneer Elite. All of the electronic "experts" I've talked to about Japanese and Korean electronics state that Japanese made products tend to be of higher quality. Based on my consumer experience with both brands I would have to agree with their take.

Earlier this year I did a side-by-side plasma comparison (all things equal) between LG, Samsung, Phillips, Hitachi, Panasonic and Pioneer elite. The best was the 50" Pioneer Elite, followed by the 55" Hitachi. With 5 extra inches and $1K+ price difference, the Hitachi was a no brainer - particularly in light of the only minor PQ differences.

Hope this helps.

I have a suggestion... LCD
And above comments from Soundsmith1 has it right with both the RPTV & Oppo suggestions, but I still suggest the newer LCD vs. CRT now. 2 years ago I would have said CRT.. The new SONY 3 panel LCD and SXRD's are just amazing and easily the top rated today.

Also the OPPO digital is the Best Video player on the market, it easily competes in picture with the Denon top units at multiple thousands and they can be had for under 200, unless you need the best SACD, DVD-a, Redbook performance in sound too, the oppo is the way to go.

Just to be sure on your choice go to AVSFORUM and check out comments on the panny...also go the the NEC thread which has the reviews on the 50XR5

Well;45 responses re. a video subject---at A-gon?? (Amazing !) A lot of good ones,too.! I've been here and at avs.com for 6/7 years each. Personally I find most all the conditioners I have tried didn't help video much. Sure, they helped my old rp crt sets. HD is a different animal. Re. a dvd player;--What about the Tosh. HD DVD player?? Less than 400; if you look around. They rent the discs at Netflix and the player upconverts the SD discs. No, I don't have one yet.I know the players, out of the box, need the 2. firmware upgrade but if I were looking for a cd player this or the next gen. is what I would buy.
My tv?? Mits 9"guns,crt.--Big and bulky.--The blacks are pretty good tho. Actually I used to rent every disc that came out; going back to LDs. The image is better in HD so I quit renting---.

You always have better picture quality for less money with a rear-projection TV if you have the space behind (and the right RPTV). Of course, the best bag-for-the-buck is CRT rear-projection. If you absolutely must have a flat-panel due to space limitations, then you picked the right one. I hope you're not going to make the most common mistake I see today; that is, "flat panel over the fireplace." I don't know who started this, but whoever it was definitely was NOT a videophile. Believe me, I've been doing this for over eight years now, and I know of only one client that's happy with his, because it's in a room adjacent to his kitchen and they primarily watch while standing and cooking. I try to talk clients out of this configuration; I usually get called-in after they do this to "make it better," which is usually not possible. Save your money with an RPTV and spend it on a nice sound system. Think about it.

Regarding DVD players I don't think you can do better than the units from Oppo Digital. They have gotten rave reviews (The Perfect Vision and others) and are extremely reasonably priced. Their nice universal player is $149, and an upgraded DVD-video player with Faroudja upscaling for $199! (These prices are direct from their website.) I recently put one in a client's system and was so impressed that I'm going to buy one for my demo/family room! They even throw in a DVI cable! Check them out at oppodigital.com.

Thank you everyone with the suggestions! I think that I'm going to go with the Panasonic th50px60u plasma, but am not sure which dvd player I should consider. I didn't mean to take this thread from plasma to dvd to power conditioning/surge protection...sorry! Hope to hear from anyone with suggestions for a dvd player. Thanks again.

The commercial displays have outputs for two speakers so you can attach whatever you want if you dont want to fire up the separates. However, the speakers have to be pretty efficient as the watts per channel from the little amp that comes with is like 8 watts per channel solid state.

Unsound,

It's a matter of running a pre-pro combination and two or five channels of amps. Sure it can all be turned on with the flick of a switch (actually press of a button), but what about the wasted energy?

db

Donbellphd, if you were firing up a front projector with a complete OTL set up I might agee, but, with a plasma, for the rest of us, it's just a flick of a switch.

Bradz - You would use the VGA input if you wanted to hook up a computer to your display. If you ever think you might have an HTPC to manage and play digital movies, show photos/home videos, or just want to use the plasma as a PC monitor. For me, that having that input was worth a couple hundred extra for the 600U

I've been using a 27" crt for what seems like forever and I think that a 50" plasma will be fine. My room isn't ideal for a projection because of the light, current house is a rental, and especially the WAF. It sounds like using separate conditioners/surge protection for video and audio is the way to go. Your suggestions Tvad look great and I was wondering if you compared the powervar to the brickwall and with what results. The audio side will be amp, pre, cd, and sub. I'd like to have a extra plug for a turntable in the near future. The video side will be plasma, dvd, and vcr(or a dvr). I also looked at the professional plasma's and really like the look of them, but I don't want to have to buy a hdmi blade and power up the separates every time I watch tv. Why would I want to use a vga input Goatwuss? Thanks again all!

I ended up with the Pansasonic 600U. I'm pretty picky with stuff, and No regrets here.

Go with the 600U over the 60U if you want a PC VGA port that hooks up to native resolution 1366 x 768. Unfortunately, HDMI does not accept 768P (720P and 1080I ok) so hooking PC up via digital is not the best.

Unsound,

For casual viewing I don't want to fire up my separates, so I rely on the audio from the TV. That may be true for more folks than you think. Sure, I could listen in great surround sound, but I don't really care for the PBS evening news.

db

I can't help but think that the Panny pro models were geared directly towards Audigoners. I doubt many here would use the cheap amps and speakers built into most commercial offerings.

Hello and congrats on your plasma decision. Plasma is the optimum PQ technology these days, until SED displays make it to the mass market---if ever. DLPs suffer from color inaccuracy and essentially non-realistic PQ. The single color wheel DLPs by definition can never be accurate and the newer LED displays, while better, still dont make it. LCDs work on light bulbs so a decent contrast ratio can never by generated, as a shadow detail and shardes of darker colors cant be reproduced by a light bulb ( ie off is off). Their refresh rates are indeed a tad too slow , although improving. Meaning motion artifact will occur.

AS far as brands, I find Pioneer to be a better display in lighter conditions, such as a room with daylight. Panasonic is the better display in a darkened room and over time, their is less viewer fatigue with a Panny display. Hitachi is excellent too, with NEC in fourth place in my opnion. Some folks fell NEC is a much better display than given credit for. While I dont agree, I thought it worth mentioning. Sony discontinued their plasmas; they had absolutely disastrous QA problems; Samsung falls in to the next group followed by the Vizios, Maxents, Phillips, Gateway, and Zenith products.

Fujitsu used to have absolutely the best Plasma but hasnt had an update to their famed AVM-2 processor in years. Reportedly new tech coming out soon. Still a great display however! Very expensive.

AS far as power conditioners/line consitioners--hit and miss effect--often based on local current conditions really. Your PQ will be drastically more affected by a good calibration than a power/line conditioner. Surge protection however is a no brainer and I am not talking about a 10 dollar power strip either.

DVD players-- well--are you planning to watch Hi Def DVDs or standard def dvds? Assuming standard def-- you want excellent 480P players. If you get an HD-Lite display--ie 1366 x 768 res or a 1024 display, you now have to consider whether you want to upscale at the level of the DVD player or the display. Remember OPPO DVD players cannot de-interlace over a component connection as an FYI. At 12.5 feet, our eyes cannot really discern resolution differnces so easily, so keep that in mind. hometheatersecrets and Kris Deering and co do their famed DVD shootout where you can compare myriads of DVD players in total score but more importantly in written test result form too. SO you can see strengths and weaknesses of most DVD players out there. Check that out. A lot of the best 480P players came and went a few years back as much of the newer emphasis and R and D dollars have been placed into HDMI connectivity and Hi Def DVD players. ie; law of diminishing returns over time.

good luck.

My ultimate goal was to upgrade my video side while eliminating clutter as well. That's how I wound up with the Esoteric DV-60. Instead of having a dvd player for my HT and a seperate cd player for my audio system, I sold them both and got the DV-60 to fill both needs. The DV-60 was actually less expensive than my cd player alone. Sonically, it is equal, but different. Visually it is much better than my old DVD player.
Fewer power cords, fewer interconnects, one less box.

As for power conditioner, I'm using a PS Audio UOHC for the plasma, and it works great. I do believe you are better off using seperate circuits, if not power conditioners for audio and video. I have the video, digital, and analog each on their own dedicated 20A line. Works great for me.

Happy hunting,

John

Bradz,

You asked about viewing distance with a 50" diagonal 16 X 9 screen. The maximum SMPTE viewing distance to obtain a 30° viewing angle is 6.8 feet; the maximum THX viewing distance to obtain a 26° viewing angle is 7.9 feet. The recommended THX viewing distance is 5.6 feet. These distances are aimed at providing an immersive theater experience for movies.

Front projection matches these viewing angle requirements, because the diagonal can easily be 100" or more, but front projection requires a darkend room, a darker environment than you might wish for casual TV viewing. Then there's the bulb life issue.

In any case, I don't think you want to sit 12' from a 50" image. I've read advice of viewing distances ranging from 1.5 to 2.5 diagonal, but 1.5 to 2 seems more reasonable -- assuming you want some immersion, not just an image you can see. (The maximum vieiwng distance for a 50" screen is 18 feet)!

db

I've read that most displays benefit from a power conditioner...is this correct? Of course my main concern is to protect all the gear with a surge protector. Are you using one of the units you mentioned Tvad? Thanks.

I'm sure the esoteric dv-60 is very nice, but it is way out of my budget. My budget for a dvd player is no more than $300. I think that the panasonic th50px60u is the plasma that I'm going to go with, but now I'm not sure which power conditioner to use with the plasma. Should I separate the video side from the audio side with two different conditioners? My ultimate goal is to upgrade the video side while at the same time simplifying any extra clutter from cables,etc. A product such as the PS Audio power director 3.5 would help with the clutter. Is the power director 3.5 a good product and value? Thanks.

I watch sports a lot, I have a DLP, I do not suffer from motion artifacts at all. Plasma does have a few advantages over a rear pro, and to be honest i never thought i would ever own a rear pro. but for the money, the size screen, and the technology built inside, it blows plasma away.

I cant hang it on a wall and make it look as sexy like as a plasma. In some scenes the colors are darker and richer, the plasma wins there. But that is really where it stops. If you were to wrap all that info up, I really feel someone with a critical eye, who isnt biased towards one type of tv or the other, would pick a rear pro. They are finally getting that good.