IM Distortion, Speakers and the Death of Science


One topic that often comes up is perception vs. measurements.

"If you can't measure it with common, existing measurements it isn't real."

This idea is and always will be flawed. Mind you, maybe what you perceive is not worth $1, but this is not how science works. I'm reminded of how many doctors and scientists fought against modernizing polio interventions, and how only recently did the treatment for stomach ulcers change radically due to the curiosity of a pair of forensic scientists.

Perception precedes measurement.  In between perception and measurement is (always) transference to visual data.  Lets take an example.

You are working on phone technology shortly after Bell invents the telephone. You hear one type of transducer sounds better than another.  Why is that?  Well, you have to figure out some way to see it (literally), via a scope, a charting pen, something that tells you in an objective way why they are different, that allows you to set a standard or goal and move towards it.

This person probably did not set out to measure all possible things. Maybe the first thing they decide to measure is distortion, or perhaps frequency response. After visualizing the raw data the scientist then has to decide what the units are, and how to express differences. Lets say it is distortion. In theory, there could have been a lot of different ways to measure distortion.  Such as Vrms - Vrms (expected) /Hz. Depending on the engineer's need at the time, that might have been a perfectly valid way to measure the output.

But here's the issue. This may work for this engineer solving this time, and we may even add it to the cannon of common measurements, but we are by no means done.

So, when exactly are we done?? At 1? 2? 5?  30?  The answer is we are not.  There are several common measurements for speakers for instance which I believe should be done more by reviewers:

- Compression
- Intermodulation ( IM ) Distortion
- Distortion

and yet, we do not. IM distortion is kind of interesting because I had heard about it before from M&K's literature, but it reappeared for me in the blog of Roger Russel ( http://www.roger-russell.com ) formerly from McIntosh. I can't find the blog post, but apparently they used IM distortion measurements to compare the audibility of woofer changes quite successfully.

Here's a great example of a new measurement being used and attributed to a sonic characteristic. Imagine the before and after.  Before using IM, maybe only distortion would have been used. They were of course measuring impedance and frequency response, and simple harmonic distortion, but Roger and his partner could hear something different not expressed in these measurements, so, they invent the use of it here. That invention is, in my mind, actual audio science.

The opposite of science would have been to say "frequency, impedance, and distortion" are the 3 characteristics which are audible, forever. Nelson pass working with the distortion profile, comparing the audible results and saying "this is an important feature" is also science. He's throwing out the normal distortion ratings and creating a whole new set of target behavior based on his experiments.  Given the market acceptance of his very expensive products I'd say he's been damn good at this.

What is my point to all of this?  Measurements in the consumer literature have become complacent. We've become far too willing to accept the limits of measurements from the 1980's and fail to develop new standard ways of testing. As a result of this we have devolved into camps who say that 1980's measures are all we need, those who eschew measurements and very little being done to show us new ways of looking at complex behaviors. Some areas where I believe measurements should be improved:

  • The effects of vibration on ss equipment
  • Capacitor technology
  • Interaction of linear amps with cables and speaker impedance.

We have become far too happy with this stale condition, and, for the consumers, science is dead.
erik_squires
Uh, I said voice and AI, Mr. Smarty Pants. 👖Could you be any more argumentative?
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Microtubules are a biological construct ... sort of like the hypothesis by Penrose and Hammeroff which are purely speculation
Microtubules are OBSERVED facts of 50 micrometres....Not only a Hameroff construct this is a cellular observed phenomenal object...You falsely suggest that by phrasing that way: "biological construct" and linked this FACT to an hypothesis instead of an actual research program linked to these 50 micrometres objects...

what is this? ignorance? blindness? 


 I only suggested medical science observations to argue my point, you claim that all that is bullshit....You accuse me of exactly what you do … I have plenty of evidence, personal experience, mathematics a bit more sophisticated that algorithm neural network, medical testimonies all around the world verifiable and convergent proof of perception without brain working...:) I am flabbergasted by your self imposed limitations and dogmas....

 All audiophiles are idiot, Penrose also and many other great minds, all those who experience NDE are hallucinating, even if they perceive distant objective reality while bein unconscious....All medical personal and doctors are superstitious idiots...


I prefer to be an idiot also.... :)


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AI is as old as the hills. My friend for a long time was the first PhD in Computer Science from University of Illinois Urbana, the epicenter of computer science in the early 60s and was one of the developers of the first computer with AI and voice recognition/voice generation - the computer that was the model for HAL 9000 in the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey. And later on, when I worked for Computer Sciences there was AI and AI squared - Artificial Intelligence/Artificial Intuition. Even that was eons ago. Artificial Intelligence. The next best thing to the real McCoy.
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where Penrose makes the rather obvious (if you have AI knowledge) conclusion that the human brain is not "algorithmic", and by extension cannot be modelled by a Touring Machine.
This is not true, some aspect of the brain can be modelled like a Turing machine, even Penrose will say that... His point is Consciousness is not the brain at all....It is like a quantum computer linked to a classical computer in some approximation and in some parts, some parts of the brain are like a computer, but the entire brain is working also at the microtubules level linked with the universal external memory, where is the consciousness that survive death... Memory dynamic is not reducible to neurons, that go another second scale under: microtubules; and that go another third level under: quantum states....The consciousness is not in the brain at all...

By the way mathematics is concept creation first, not only  Turing machine....
A HYPOTHESIS of consciousness. A scientist would never call what was written a theory as theory would imply significant evidence in support of said theory, and there is not. It is a hypothesis.
Sometimes it will be helpful to read other books than engineer one....There is theory of consciousness now, and no theory of matter in the 19 century meaning of the word survive1925...
Matter is a hypothesis now, in fact matter exist hypothetically for our convenience,not a fundamental  reality anymore.... Consciousness was a  superfluous hypothesis few decades ago but no more that, it is a hypothesis  beginning to be a reality... You pick it? This is called paradigm change, this change does not appear first in engineering studies...
Theory, hypothesis. What’s the diff? You say potato. I say potahto. Give us a break. This isn’t a convention of Harvard weenies.
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The perception of sound is not entirely the signal. And the noise and distortion is not entirely that comprised in the measured Signal to Noise + Distortion ratio.
This is also my understanding....I cannot negate that at all...


Phenomena are so interlinked with one another, that to understand some we must separated them artificially...This separation is necessary, but this impose a limitation to the understanding that we must be conscious of... If not, we begins to be dogmatic.... Sorry heaudio...
Sheldrake and Penrose are not contradictory theory at all...

and Geoff I apologize for not knowing Peter Belt theory sorry...I am mostly interested by mathematics....

IMHO Penrose went a little bit crazy later on you know, with the Emperor’s New Mind and the quantum mechanics of the brain/mind. Way too philosophical.
This is not true by the way, a theory of consciousness implicating quantum theory, a reinterpretation of the role of gravity, and a cosmological theory and microtubules biology and neurology, linked together in some experimental research programs is not only a philosophical one, sorry....

Read Hameroff and Penrose they worked together...You must refresh your reading because Penrose and Hameroff collaboration begins after the publication of the Emperor`s new mind 35 five years ago ... :)


By the way all that Penrose conceptions are only one example of an interesting theory, they are other one...Personally I even have mine, implicating linguistic and mathematic...

The only point of view in common with all the theories that interest me: they are not materialist one.... Materialism is gone now for good after 1925... Except for crowds....But I know for sure you know that already....Heaudio does not seems to know that at this moment.... My best to you all...
IMHO Penrose went a little bit crazy later on you know, with the Emperor’s New Mind and the quantum mechanics of the brain/mind. Way too philosophical. When it come to mind-matter interaction I want some meat on the bones. If you ask me, Bohm and Rupert Sheldrake hit the nail much more on the head in terms of both mind-matter interaction and quantum mechanics of the mind. And yes, Peter Belt hit it even more on the head! The perception of sound is not entirely the signal. And the noise and distortion is not entirely that comprised in the measured Signal to Noise + Distortion ratio. 
I can only say "huh"? "Indepedence of conscious" ....
Medical reanimation research that confirm many times perception without brain function does not count?

Scientific literature for that is vast now, medicine is a science also you know....

Personal experience is lies or hallucinations also for you, the cannot be facts even if correlated and corroborated?

Mathematics you dont know has no value either?

Grothendieck concept of universe no value?
Penrose reading of Godel no value?
Godel valuing intuition over logic: the hallucination of a moron in logic?
Cantor advocating the creation of new concepts in mathematics over formal logic, an idiot?

Purely a philosophical statement with no grounding in facts
You make me smile , fact without philosophical interpretation exist?

A rock is a rock when your feet push it.... All reality is there ?




But there is a glimpse of hope in your dogmas, if you think seriously at "this something we can agree on" you will understand my point about the creation of concepts...

This may be something we can agree on, though more likely co-existence in the same space could be incompatible.

and would be at some point incompatible with the survival of the human race...
I apologize for being a bit arrogant but you are yourself at least on par with me.... :)

I will not try to convince you, consciousness transform itself only at the right moment in his evolutive dynamic.... Arguing is of no value it is better to see by ourselves... My best to you...
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heaudio123

It is easy to guess that you are a competent engineer....I will not discuss dac with you... :) 

The human brain is just a biological implementation of what amounts to a computer
This is false for almost all thinkers(not for most A.I. engineers tough because claiming contrary help to fund them, the human brain project of Markham for example)

This is even false mathematically speaking...Penrose and others to numerous to cite here...Like for example Kurt Godel, but Godel point is so subtle than it is missed buy most...This subtle point can be guess if you think about the  necessary condition for concepts creation that I suggest in this post...


but if you have a hard concept of a computer only being digital logic then you will not understand where AI will go.
Even with the coupling of quantum computer to classical computer you will not create a real conscious intelligence... You know why if you have read my post :creating concepts is possible only for an entity grounded in the living universe and able to see it from an outside point at the same time... This polarity condition is the basis of linguistic and the basis of mathemathical concept creation also...The apparent superiority of computers is precisely at the same time the reason why they cannot create concepts valid between worlds but only schemas valid in their own and unique  artificial world...  Conceptual thinking linked to metaphorical thinking  is not  only and mainly static schemas but a dynamical engine embodied in language and a powerful seeds for new worlds...Robot dont  speak even if you listen to them speaking, because they were never born and will not die either, they cease to be functional, they are not grounded in the cosmic universal living memory like the brain that is only a creative filter and antenna...Computer has no values.... They are amoral programmed, or auto programmed "learning" machine...Like a hammer...


A complex A.I will only be able to create an artificial world of his own, and will coincide totally itself with this closed artificial universe, unlike humans or unlike living entities and would be at some point incompatible with the survival of the human race...Man and living conscious entities die, they go from a universe to another one...Read some other books than engineer manuals... :) Science is not what you think....Science is a complex endeavour of the free human spirit not dogmas...


 For example reanimation medicine validated scientifically the independence of consciousness in relation to the brain... This is one only of the new direction of scientific research ...


For the mathematics linked to these new science era and describing abstractly the link between consciousness and universe, they are beyond the mathematics of all the 20th century and too new to be discussed here...They are not A.I neural network algorithm for sure...
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 5 bit is more than adequate
No it's not.  They are using 5 bits due to hardware limitation and the over-complexity of the dynamic element matching network.  I don't think you know what you're talking about.

I am still waiting for Einstein or Beethoven coming out of your @$$ lols.

At least you now understand 5 bits. Still in shock? Didn’t expect that did you?
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All it seems to illustrate is a lack of understanding of how DACs work.
You seem to be saying all sort of things just randomly without knowing what you’re talking about. Oh, may be they had the wrong AI programmed in your head lols.  Sigma Delta can use however many bits to your heart content, but it will overload your hardware the more bits you use.

Here’s a link to educate about dCS before sprouting nonsense. That should shock you to know dDC only uses 5 bits.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/71888-ring-dac.html
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/308923-difference-dcs-ringdac-vs-typical-sigma-delta-dem.html


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It may be a bit slow in coming from me, but I want to clarify a bit of what I already posted a while back. I said:

’I don’t think it is so much the death of science that has stopped the adoption of better measurement methods so much as it has been the rise of marketing. Not just the sheer amounts of advertising, but journalism and also the advent of the internet of plenty have conspired to distract us (the consumers) from the notion or concept of what a relevant set of measurements might look like or the significance of its role.’

’Once that notion fell out of public consciousness, then the pressure was off of manufacturers or advertisers to maintain it.’

When I used the word ’conspired’, I did not actually mean to imply a ’grand conspiracy’ that is always to be considered automatically malevolent toward the consumer and that we are all somehow doomed. It was not my intent to project that as a determining attitude of mine or that it was sufficient grounds in my mind to never trust in manufacturers or in innovation ever again. I’m sure at the least I neglected to say that those things **inadvertently** conspired against us, on that point anyway. Even though I’ve had many occasions in my time to feel as though I couldn’t take manufacturers at their word, that was not my point. What I was trying to illustrate was the **mechanism** in the marketplace by which I believe the pre-existing public awareness of measurements and their role had left us. I know my remarks were seized upon earlier in the worst light (my own fault for not being more clear), but I’d prefer to take a moment and set that straight here. And if because of it I came across as unseemly toward manufacturers here, then I apologize. Anyone that I can believe is attempting to further the causes of both maker and end user alike is, contrary to how it may have looked, is quite welcome here by me.

I believe I welcome innovation as well as the next person. But then again, innovation in the market can be notoriously hard to spot. I’m still in the middle of reading the material...but white papers and I argue a lot...and I lose those arguments more often than not.

But, I remain fixed that my ears will have the final say, whatever the tech is or promises to be. Yet I look forward to progress. In the past, tech innovations have come from other disciplines or fields...like Bybee devices by way of the DOD. It does not surprise me to find this trend continuing, should it pan out.

But, as has already been pointed out, I’m sure Erik is dead on the money for raising the question from the start and I would love to see it answered positively, from whatever quarter that may come.
Until you extend your concept of what a "computer" is, you will maintain this simple and erroneous view of both what is possible with AI, and this view that the human mind is somehow "special". The human brain is just a biological implementation of what amounts to a computer, but if you have a hard concept of a computer only being digital logic then you will not understand where AI will go.
It's true that at least in theory, a human brain is made up of the same stuffs such as electrons, neutrons, protons ... just like a computer so in that sense a brain is not "special" nor does a brain is endowed with any "divine" properties.

But it's a stretch to say AI will replace human.  

In a given very specific task, an AI could replace a human, but in very limited and controlled environment.

For example, an AI can land a Boeing 747, but it could only be done in very limited and controlled situation.  When you add cross-wind, turbulence, and multitude of other external factors, no sane pilot will allow an AI to take over the airplane.  


FYI, even at the cost of some of the high-end dCS stuffs, I believe their Sigma Delta Ring DAC technology only has 5 bits on the output, because anymore bits would overload the hardware to point of being impractical to implement on the hardware.

Yes, you read that correctly - only 5 bits.  That should wake up some people who think technology will replace human.
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"For sure no measuring apparatus can rival ears..." because apparatus lack opinions and bias.  The latter can be applied, but it isn't our variety. *s*

mho, I'll welcome more comprehensive and varied 'parameters' applied to the various and sundry equipment offered to the 'discerning consumer'.  But there seems a quandary buried within all that may be measured...

How does one quantify these variables in a manner that would make sense as an entirety to the potential listener?  What sort of scaling could be applied that would or could be applicable to the introduction of 'Unit X' into ones' home environment?

If 'coloration' rates a 7.75 vs.'articulation' @  5.45 vs. 'soundstage' rating a dismal 2.5.....(and you haven't considered the remaining 12 params posted....)....and 'it' hasn't gotten the credit card seal of approval yet.

Nor have you gotten 'it' home...yet....:(

Spirituality and technical virtuosity aside, lofty as they both are...we've back to the flawed measurement systems that are port and starboard on our heads.

As for the 'measurement wetware' between them.....*sigh*  SOS.

BTW...one of the best forums I've had the pleasure to peruse.*VBS*
Intelligent without rancor....

I'll go back to lurking now....*poof*
Very easy if you renounce thinking and became a cyborg....Marrying will do tough....But what is mariage if not stopping thinking ? :)
Can heaudio123 AI create for me a chef?  I am tired of my own cooking lols.
When you understand AI learning and architecture you realize in many ways that aspects are much like evolution and happening in real time. And yes, more creative that Beethoven and an even farther reaching mind than Einstein.
You are right on only one aspect:

This apparent superiority is an illusion....The map is not reality, never mind the sophistication of the map...

"Far reaching mind" ? Goethe cannot be replicate, nor Bach, they are living organism that speak to other living organism.... A machine will speak numbers in so much complicated strings to another machine , no human mind can understand them not even their creators... But it is not something that have to be understood, it is a closed code between two machine or more  and synchronizing them....

A machine will live in a sea of numbers without being able ever to see numbers from the outside and creating concepts about numbers....( this is an important point about what is really a concept) Sorry it is elementary mathematics for the mathematical mind...Read Godel, Cantor, Ramanujan, Grothendieck, even Archimedes will do... One of the greatest genius to ever lived is Archimedes, and do you know what is his central idea? the concept of the infinite....(Reviel Nietz is specialist of Archimedes).

No machine will ever invent a concept? It is simple to know why.... To invent a concept you must live grounded internally in a universe, and you must at the same time see it from the outside.... I will not explain it here but this fact is the basic of linguistic and not only of mathematics...Read Ernst Cassirer, a philosopher and a scientist friend of Einstein, that discuss relativity with him, that know enough quantum mechanics to discuss with Bohr... Not an audiophile...:)

Life is among other things a universal connected cellular "active" infinite memory, and A.I. artificial memory, so powerful it will be, is nothing to compared with....By the way my ideas comes mostly from mathematics, but more sophistical ideas than just algorithmic theory for engineer...The mathematics linked to this universal memory of life are so new they are created 8 years ago by a Mathematician from Japan (Shinichi Mochizuki under the title Inter-universal geometry or arithmetic deformation theory)... Enjoy the read....And dont think audiophile are all stupid....I dont think that all engineers are stupid....
When you understand AI learning and architecture you realize in many ways that aspects are much like evolution and happening in real time. And yes, more creative that Beethoven and an even farther reaching mind than Einstein.
Remind me of 1980’s science fiction flicks :-) Watching too much of those can get you in trouble.

Fyi, 24/192 has 0 compromises within the limits of human hearing.
There is so much limitations even with today digital technology but talking about it would require talking about digital engineer that you may not be familiar with.  
Only, only, if the validation by humans is reproducible under controlled conditions, otherwise it is just conjecture.
Ok take a piece of shungite around 500 grams, put it on the electrical central panel of your house, or anywhere in the audio system, the sound will change...For the worse or for the better.... The important thing is not fine tuning the effect for the time being, but only to induce an objective effect that is not measured …. This effect will be audible worsening or improving the sound by anyone putting it in his system and listening to a files that he knows already well.... After that observation of change, we will discuss how to improve this change and transform it in a definitive positive improvement in all case with any sound system? is it not simple?


By the way accusing all vendors a priori to be crooks is not only not fair diplomacy, it is plainly false on common sense ground judgment...

My self I replicate or create homemade all my tweaks... I dont buy any material that cost more than peanuts... The more costly electronic component I modified for my needs cost me 10 bucks...

There is no relation whatsoever between the audio system I owns now for years, and the same electronic components rightly embedded in the vibrational-resonant mechanical dimension, in my electrical grid, and in the acoustical fiel of my room.... Total transformation of the same speakers-dac-amplifiers....same electronics components but they produce a sound now at his real potential S.Q..... And you will said to me that is an illusion? I will smile for sure....

Try my experiment if you are serious about audio more than about dogmas... Is it too complicated to verify an audible change when putting a rock on an electronic component or on the electrical main box of your house ?
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If one takes the non-spiritual view then there is nothing about the human brain that cannot be replicated.
That is not true. Can you replicate Beethoven or Einstein? If you’re right, then we probably have a bunch of Einstein running around already.  That is such a simple-minded point of view that I have to scratch my head.

Again, you seem to be confused between things that can objectively replicated vs. things that belong to the conscious mind that cannot be replicated.

If you are faithfully recreating the signal that is engineering and science.
That is not possible even with the current equipment. You can come close but nothing in this world that can replicate the original performance 100%. I mean you can come close but not 100%. Currently you got 24bit/192KHz, SACD, DSD and so on but they all have their own compromises.

You seem to be putting yourself into a corner that you cannot get out of :-)
If you are intentionally modifying the signal that is not engineering that is art, in which case don’t make up characteristics for equipment that are simply not true, not validated, not verified, and reproducible and disappear
Thanks, your answer about spirituality is fair enough...

But when I say that engineering is also " art" I dont say that in the sense of your wording in this extract of your post...I dont say that as if I was speaking about taste or fancy....Or illusion....


Some of the tweaks I use modify the sound in a reproducible way and can give new ideas to an engineer...Some ideas I replicate came even from some engineers... Engineering is not only about measuring, it is also innovating, design is not reducible only to numbers and measure....And dont confuse measuring with reproducible....validation by other human beings also count even if not measurable at the moment....And dont call "not true" what is not measured nor measurable at some point in time but validated tough by many human ears...Do you get my point?


If not, you reduce yourself to less than what you are....

If you are faithfully recreating the signal that is engineering and science. If you are intentionally modifying the signal that is not engineering that is art,

By the way, the frontier between art and science is absolutely not clear cut like you pre supposed it to be....Luckily, because creativity is linked to break artificial frontiers, artificial methods, habits, and false rigid distinction that has no link to a living complex reality in biology and in physical reality also....Art is not synonym for illusion and science synonym of reality....This is for common sense and for philosophy absurdly simplistic view...
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Sure it can’t measure your tastes and the way your ears translate the air movement to your brain!
Very good point... We understand each other a little more...

It is just that there exist many other points that cannot be measured or that are not measured at this moment by scientist now in audio experience...One by one these points can be explained, many of them.... But when an audiophile create his room he plays with some basic science, and also with other factors to improve the sound...These factors are not always only the regular one studied by engineers that’s all... They exist.... I play with them with great success....My very real " illusion" of sound comes from them not only from good design electronic components....

If someone negate science I will not complaint if you call him an idiot, but negating some experience not directly linked to usual engineer experiment and calling audiophiles idiot is not good diplomacy....


By the way I am sure the OP was not speaking of the death of science " per se" but the narrow vision of some in audio science....Is it not clear? Or do you feel better in classifying anybody that is not engineer in idiot crowds?





Ha ha ha, "science is dead", what a joke!  Science can show you the transfer function between the source and the end result in the air at your place!
Sure it can't measure your tastes and the way your ears translate the air movement to your brain!
All we want to achieve is, within many constraints, the nearest end reproduction of the original sound taken from the source instruments / voice.

So don't bother with science, it's doing very well and isn't going anywhere!
So called audiophiles without any real technical knowledge repeatedly try to use this false argument that the complexities of sound field interpretation somehow translate to equal complexities AND variables for electrical signal transmission and use that logical fallacy for their justification of all kinds of never measured, never characterized and certainly never validated effects and characteristics in electrical signal recording, transmission and playback.
It is not an argument that the electrical audio signal is conveyed trough an electrical grid of a particular house, in the mechanical resonant constraints of a particular audio system, through a very specific acoustical field in a particular room to be recreated by the ears-brain in some individual qualitative experience, irreducible to our actual measuring process...It is a simple fact....But I think that the improved measuring process can improve this experience yes....


And you contest a great physician mathematician about something you dont understand it seems...And accuse us "idiot" audiophiles ... :)


I smile because engineering for you is a bit distant of mathematics ( those of Penrose are not kitchen mathematics of 19 century) and philosophy it seems...Engineering is not only science , it is based on science, it is an art like medecine… There exist engineers that are also "idiot" audiophiles themselves and they work to create great audio....They dont buy the " fallacy" you speak about because all engineers are not scientist ideologue....They create for the human ears-brain, for the idiot audiophile to buy their products...

 I know what your work or hobby is for sure: it is measuring.... Nothing against that at all... It is very good and necessary thing to  do for improving  Audio for sure.... But remember:  «for a hammer all is nails»


heaudio123
What matters is that all those smarts of the brain and their ability to pull information out of a sound (and visual ) field is completely meaningless wrt defining what happens with an electrical signal. So called audiophiles without any real technical knowledge repeatedly try to use this false argument that the complexities of sound field interpretation somehow translate to equal complexities AND variables for electrical signal transmission and use that logical fallacy for their justification of all kinds of never measured, never characterized and certainly never validated effects and characteristics in electrical signal recording, transmission and playback.

>>>>At least it’s the ones without any technical knowledge who try to use that phoney baloney argument. Are you sure you’re not Ethan Winer? For real? 

He can say it. That does not make it remotely correct:
Ok now I understand what you want to say and what is your conception very clearly.... Thanks....


Do you know why he said that? Not the mathematical or physical, biological argument, but the spiritual insight that guide him?
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