Ikeda 407 Tone Arms - New or Vintage

The difference between FR/IKEDA and some other tonearms is Dynamic VTF, so the counterweight position is always at the balance point depending only on cartridge/headshell weight.

 

If you have small (stock) counterweight with lightweight cartridge and heavy shell (or with heavy cartridge) then a counterweight will be far away from the tonearm pivot (just like on these images from the web):

 

 

When I use my FR-64fx with optional W250 counterweight designed for FR-7 and SPU series, this is the right position (very close to the pivot) on my tonearm:

 

 

But with my long 66fx tonearm (and its heavy counterweight) the distance between the pivot and counterweight is bigger simply because the long armtube of the 66fx is much heavier than short 64fx. Tracking force generated by spring mechanism, not by the counterweight. The counterweight is at the balance point anyway:

 

billwojo, you can perhaps dream about infinite numbers buy you

can't  make infinite number of countrerights. 

Well since I'm a machinist and can make any counterweight I might need can I say that all of my tonearms have a infinate number of counterweights?

BillWojo

edgewear, ''universal quantifiers'' are used to expres generality.

The so called ''universal satements'' are so ''composed''.

I am not aware of existance of ''verstile statements'' of any kind. 

Dear dover,  ''at least 4'' does not exist in the number theory.

This then must be your meta-mathematic (grin). 

Versatile is perhaps a more appropriate term than universal. The tonearm closest to being universal is probably Audiocraft AC-3300/4400, which offers 4 different counterweights and 2 different sub counterweights but also various armpipes, including those specifically for SPU A and EMT TSD. And it offers adjustible oil damping. So far I have been unable to find a cartridge that doesn't perform well in this tonearm. That being said, there are some low compliance MC's that simply adore the FR-64/66 arm, like FR7, Ikeda 9, SPU and Miyabi. I assume the same goes for the later Ikeda arms.

@nandric 

both the kuzma and moerch have at least 4 counterweights of different weights which are combined to optimise their mass and position. By my maths that equates to 24 combinations in each case 

the helius has 3 counterweights plus 2 small counterweights used in tandem. When you order a helius they ask you for the weight range of your cartridges to ensure optimisation.

the 6 counterweights for the Sumiko are quite crude by comparison

Dear dover, you forget to name just one with 6 counterweight while

the expression ''multiple''  of them does not say exactly how

many are involved. The difference  is as by ''numerical quantifiers''

versus  ''universal'' which are not determinate.   

@nandric 
there are plenty of tonearns that provide multiple or adjustable mass counterweights .

examples I have owned or set up are Kuzma 4point, sme, zeta, helius, moerch to name a few. 
 

Unfortunately many audiophiles who claim to be expert do not understand the benefits or physics behind getting the counterweight as close to pivot as possible.

chakster, ''the key to using the arm with high compliance cartridges 

is to get the counterweght as close to the pivot as possible''. 

This means, according to me, the question about ''universal arm''. 

I own Sumiko 800 ( ''the arm'') with 6 counterweights meant not

so much for ''compliance'' but well for different cartridges weight.

Those 6 are meant for cartriges of 6 g till 26 g. But back than

people bought just one counterweight corresponding with ONE

cart which people used to own. That is why my sample is so

rare.

I started an thread ''on what there is'' and got all kinds of reactions

except the ''relevant kinds''. Well ''there is Sumiko 800 with 6

different weights  ''  but its ''existance'' make no sense when

nobody is aware ot this ''fact''. 

Dear @mcmprov  :  Look, Japan is the bigger tube market on audiophiles and at the same time FM Acoustics has it's bigger market rigth in Japan.

 

FM Acoustics is out of question on its design or quality levels. If any electronics partner does not mates well with FM then the problem ( you can be sure. ) belongs to the partner never to FM.

 

R.

Audiogon provides an excellent forum for audiophiles to discuss and debate all things audio.

 

@dover This is why you have to discuss AUDIO, nothing else, because nobody cares about your opinion on how to sell our used/vintage gear, where and when.

Who are you to talk about it? As far as I know (as you claimed on this forum) it was you who’s been selling new high-end gear as a distributor with ridiculous distributor’s margin (before the internet era), everyone knows how big the distributor’s margin is, sometimes over 50% for all that crazy overpriced gear.

 

The issue is that Audiogon can only exist if funding permits, and I assume that some of their funding comes from sales commissions.

 

Mainly from advertising on the site and on the forum if you did not notice yet!

The forum is not even the site, they are two different platforms with two different web addresses. Forum is FREE for everyone, and this is about contribution, knowledge, community, friendship after all. No one will read a forum if there is no information, without forum audiogon market place will suffer.

There are many more powerful social media platforms like Facebook, Instagram, Telegram and a dozen of absolutely free audio forums everyone can read for free, communicate with people, share knowledge, pictures, videos whatever.

 

If you take a helicopter view, then Audiogon has saved a lot of readers a lot money through access to excellent advice. Therefore is it too much to ask for Forum members to give a little back ?

 

Your logic is pointless, it’s audiogon must pay back to the contributors who shared the knowledge on this forum for ages for free, this is the only reason people read this forum! But because of people like you, who act like a forum police, and complain to moderators each time your imagination goes too far, a lot of great contributors left this forum forever! They do not post anymore and I miss those people, because they were a driving force of this forum for years! Right now we have no more than 10 contributors who’s opinion is valuable. The rest is just FAQ from the strangers. If you want this forum to be dead soon with all these FAQ instead of an interesting discussions between experienced users you can do your thing (continue to make claims) and people like Nanric will leave this forum forever just like other people did, he always was one of the greatest contributors since the old days of audiogon, I enjoyed his posts before I even start posting here. You want to teach him how to sell on audiogon, just because he mentioned another German site? Do not forget that we’re in Europe, not in the USA.

I think criticism is the key to make things better, so I will add my 50 cents:

Audiogon SALES fee is fine as it will be charged after sale and no one will argue about it, but LISTING FEES are charged even if you did not sell anything, even ebay does not charge listing fee at all. The smart decision would be to change the sales fee (even higher sales fee is ok) but without charging listing fee at all (because items remains unsold). Listing fee is for shops, distributors and professional sellers (like you), they have a budget for ads and stuff. Private collectors and audio enthusiasts do not have a budget for additional fees and I want to remind you that we often have to sell something to buy something else in audio. Many years ago I listed a few things on audiogon market place, I was shocked when they charged the listing fee for unsold items (and the listing fee was so high). In my opinion they could have more sales ONLY if the listing will be free of charge and then they can charge sales fee (which is totally fine). Ebay was smarter and they canceled listing fees for all. Guess where people will list their stuff for sale ? Probably on ebay.

Hi Raul,

I ended up buying a Glanz MH 1200S.  I am using it with several Miyajima Infinity Cartridges.  I am swapping headshells and 0.7 mil, 1.0 mil, and 3.0 mil for different types of mono records.  Lately, I am also experimenting with using different null points to optimize for 7 inch / 10 inch records (a seperate cartridge / headshell for that).  I think the Glanz was a step up from my FR-64s.  In fact, I might even buy another Glanz for my Ortofon SPU collection.  I have not bought the FM 123 yet, but it remains very high on my list of most wanted upgrades.  I'm not sure if FM would work well in a tube system, such as my Shindo / Devore set up in my living room.  I bought a Thomas Mayer Mono Variable EQ Phono stage and absolutely love it with the Shindo system.  I think the FM will work with my Accuphase / Tannoy Legacy Eaton media room set up.  I like the Eaton, but i'm thinking about upgrading, as I might move to a place with a larger room.  So, FM on hold until I figure out my new media room set up.  Some tonearms seem a bit tough to make work will with the TD-124 (e.g., Ortofon RS-309D / Glanz) owing to low height of the platter, but I was able to mount the FR-64s and get the correct height for my cartridge.  I'd need to spend more time with it to post any worthwhile feedback.  For what it's worth, my first impression is that I liked the FR-64s better on my Garrard 301 which allowed for use of the B60, but the FR-64 still sounded pretty good.  Also, I am upgrading my Devore's to the O/20...waiting for it to be built...so that's where I invested my funds / efforts lately....

All the best,

 

Mark

The key to using the arm with a high compliance cartridge is to get the counterweight as close to the pivot point as possible, which may require using a heavier counterweight for the higher compliance cartridge. It’s counter intuitive.

W250 black fx counterweight designed for superheavy SPU and FR-7 series (they are over 30g each), for 'normal' cartridges/headshells there are W170 counterweight and even W210 counterweight. I use my FR tonearms with FR-7f and FR-7fz xartridges exclussively (with the right counterweight). For any other cartridges FR-64fx owners can use ONLY small stock counterweight which is small and lightweight, you can;t balance 32g cartridge with such counterweight. BTW I have all types of counterweights in my collection for my FR tonearms (it took a wile to find and buy then NOS).

 

Dear dover,  I am not sure if ''holy water'' or wine from (Dutch) New Zeeland

made you so altruistic but in the rest of the world prices are still dominant

factor. In Holland, for example, all prices are 5,99; 29,99, etc, sugesting

that diference of 1 cent make the whole euro ''invisible''. That is to say

that that the prices are 5 and 29 euro's while 1 cent does not even

exist as currency.  

@nandric

It is very simple.

Audiogon provides an excellent forum for audiophiles to discuss and debate all things audio. The issue is that Audiogon can only exist if funding permits, and I assume that some of their funding comes from sales commissions.

If you take a helicopter view, then Audiogon has saved a lot of readers a lot money through access to excellent advice. Therefore is it too much to ask for Forum members to give a little back ?

Dear Dover, your moral is curious. As a former seller of electronic

stuff with 30% fees for your so called ''services;''  you are critizing

'''small  and accidental sellers '' who try to get their own money

back. Also curious that you have no idea about fees which

A''gon market charges and those by much larger German site

which charge 5 euro per item for two months listing.  Even more

curious is that we enjoy and value your  musical  judgment then

your, say, comercial kinds. 

@nandric 

nandric

3,806 posts

11-16-2021 7:12am

I own two and just listed one with B-60 replica on the German

site ''audio-markt.de''. The arm for 2000 euro and B-60 for

700 euro. 

 

You might have a better chance of selling your arm if you advertised it on here on audiogon rather than just posting a link to your ad on another site.

@chakster 

the arm can be used with high compliance cartridges with stock counterweight and with low compliance cartridges with optional W250 heavy counterweight. 

You have got this ass about face.

The key to using the arm with a high compliance cartridge is to get the counterweight as close to the pivot point as possible, which may require using a heavier counterweight for the higher compliance cartridge. It's counter intuitive.

 

 

Fidelity-Research tonearm like the FR-64fx is one of those great vintage tonearms anyone can use today, the arm can be used with high compliance cartridges with stock counterweight and with low compliance cartridges with optional W250 heavy counterweight. Dynamic tracking force is a super user friendly feature. With an additional N60 stabilizer nut the performance can be improved. This is really amazing in my opinion. You must be an annoying snob to not like the FR tonearms, especially the latest FX series from the 80’s, the FR-66fx is the best of them (predecessor of the IKEDA 407). Any FX tonearm is better than 64s, because the common problem for 64s is dried up grease in the VTF mechanism and in the arm lift. Also the base of the 64s is a joke, compared to the base of the FX series. So the 64s is much harder to find in a good condition simply because it’s older tonearm, but after replacement of the arm lift and arm base (with B60) it’s a great tonearm!

 

 

The first bunch of IKEDA tonearms also have stainless steel arm tube. Never triend the latest IKEDA, but old from the early 90’s are amazing. It’s a rock solid tonearm, I love my IT-345.

 

 

For the owners of the mighty FR-7f, FR-7fz and IKEDA cantilever-less LOMC cartridges those are the best tonearms. And this combination will give you the sound of Ikeda. People who don’t like this sound are from the parallel world for me (I wouldn’t take their thought seriously), because the FR-7f + FR-66 fx is mind blowing combination in direct comparison to a dosen of vintage and new tonearms and cartridges.

 

I never tried the 66s, but I believe it’s stunning.

 

I love the 66fx in my system and I would be happy to find an early version of the Ikeda IT-407 for a good price.

Dear @mcmprov : I don’t know if you finally pulled the triger for the FM Acoustics phono stage to mate which some of your really good cartridges you own.

 

I know you own FR arm(s) that I owned too and now you ask for the Ikeda 407 that I owned too.

Both tonearm designs are very good looking items but nothing more than that and with all my respect to Mr. Ikeda he was very good cartridge designer but certainly not a good tonearm designer.

 

What mean I with this? the FR and Ikeda tonearms were designed and builded with out take in count the specific aND COMPLEX CARTRIDGE NEEDS ( ANY CARTRIDGE. ).

 

The Ikeda designs set up VTF is a balanced one where Ikeda uses the traditional but " stupid " spring to make VTF set up. This sole characteristic is way resonant and goes against MUSIC reproduction: no matters what.

 

Maybe you don’t care about and is what you like and I’m not questioning you in any way but I care where I mount any cartridge for it can shows at its best and tonearm developed resonances is not in my " equations ".

 

The 407 is a long EL design and way more resonant than a shorter design and other disadvantages and not as the people think that longer is always better and certainly it’s not. Heavy mass means higher inernta moment in the tonearm and this a disadvantage too.

 

Both Ikeda designs are almost undampened and during play the arm wands rings/resonates as a bells.

 

Vintage or today the Ikeda tonearms maybe is the worst choice other than unipivots tonearms designs.

 

Lyra designer posted on FR/407 resonances:

 

" Yes, I’ve already done so with the Titan i. Likewise the Olympos. I agree that the results can be quite OK - as long as you wrap a damper strip around the armtube or take measures to dampen it better. "

 

"" I agree that the FR-66S would be somewhat better than the SAEC, but truth be told, I’m not overly enamoured of the "S" family either (and I say this as the long-time owner of a 64S with Elevation Base and Arm Stabilizer). The stainless steel is great to look at, but less great to listen to, and when I run mine I prefer to keep a compression wrap around the tube.

FWIW, I’ve known Isamu Ikeda for many years ""

 

"" And as Raoul suggested, I use the Warren Gehl armwrap, which is far more effective than heatshrink. It dampens the resonances of the armtube by compressing it radially, and works on a similar principle to how you play harmonics on a bass or guitar.

The armwrap’s radial compression of the armtube makes the 64S and 66S operate a bit more like Ikeda’s later arm designs like the IT-245 and IT-407, although these added interference damping by force-fitting multiple concentric tubes of various materials together. ""

 

All those does not means that with the arm wand compresion everything is ok, NO it’s not.

 

I repeat what you like is your privilege but if I was you I never mount any of the great cartridges you own in either tonearm designs but everything is up to you that are the gentleman that must live with and with what you like. Period.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

My problem is that I like all of them and this is only one turntable on the image (with 66fx and 64s), Ikeda is on my Denon DP-80.  

 

I own two and just listed one with B-60 replica on the German

site ''audio-markt.de''. The arm for 2000 euro and B-60 for

700 euro. 

I wouldn't trade an old IT-345 for 64s 

 

@nandric 

Wow, that's surprising, and good to know! I've been intermittently curious about the Ikeda arms, but already have a 64S (plus two 64fx's) and love it. 

I sold my Ikeda 407 because I prefer FR-64 s which is also much

cheaper. 

Old IKEDA have better finishing (matte grey) and stainless steel armtube.

I have an old Ikeda IT-345 and it’s great.

P.S. What I don’t like about new IKEDA is the gloss (mirror) finishing.

 

 

Stay away from 2juki! He took my money and the cartridge. Not good, he sales fake goods!

Just came upon this thread. Mcmprov, I would be happy to discuss the Ikeda tonearms with you. I'm happy to be importing the legendary products here in the U.S.
www.beautyofsound.com
Bill Demars
518-852-9183

I doubt the US importer will recommend a vintage model.

Try to ping Agon member Rauliruegas. I'm interested in what you find out.

If you're in the U.S., here's a link:

http://www.beautyofsound.com/page1/index.html

Hopefully they will be able to answer any questions you may have.

Also, you can purchase on eBay/Audiogon from 2Juki in Hong Kong. Prompt delivery and competitive pricing. Not the best source, however, for answering technical questions. YRMV.

Good luck to you!