Hypex Ncore NC1200 Amps at NY Audio Show in April

Hifial,

Thanks for clarifying. You are correct, Hypex currently offers only the 2 Ncore amp modules: The NC400 for the DiY community and the NC1200 OEM which is reserved for select class D amp building audio companies. Currently, there is no Ncore 700 amp offered by Hypex. PS Audio is using the older UcD700 amp modules in their soon to be released class D amp. Thank you again, Hifial,for clarifying. I want to be accurate on all info I give on class D products and happenings.

Okay, now that we've made sure everyone's clear on Hypex Ncore, should we begin discussing the alternative: Abletec has their own line of class D amp modules that I find interesting. Should we start another thread for Abletec? Or, should we continue on this thread? I think another thread has already been started on this forum. The thread was on the D-sonic M1500 mono bloc amps (reviewed by 6Moons) but it may need updating since it was older.

Thanks,
Tim

Noble100: As far as I know up till now there is no Ncore700, a UCD700 yes. There are only two Ncore at this time, the DIY NC400 and the OEM NC1200. At times you state there is no NCore 700 and at others you mention a Ncore 700 in the above post.

The Ncore NC1200 is designed to allow an OEM the option to use their own "input stage". There are many items that have been misconstrued on many of the forums.

Also the power modules have similar designations but can be amp specific.

Here's a copied thread from www.psaudio.com's Community forum thread about the new class D stereo amp due out around mid-summer this year:

"Hypex was supposed to apply some of the ncore tech to the UcD series. Will the UcD modules in the new PSA amp benefit from this?

timequesttimequest March 22
Posts: 348Community Leader

@wglenn...

This response is from Streets Still Works - I've copy/pasted a section from the 6th page of this thread. It answers your question nicely...

@ SSW: "...From the Hypex white paper ( http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore wp.pdf )the Features of NCORE are:,
HypexWhitePaper said:

1) A mathematically exact understanding of self-
oscillation. This allows optimization of large-
signal performance.
2) Improved comparator circuitry insures that
actual behaviour matches the theoretical model
as closely as possible.
3) New gate drive circuitry improves open-loop
distortion at moderate signal levels while signi-
ficantly reducing idle losses.
4) A new control loop ups loop gain by 20dB across
the full audio range without sacrificing stability.

Paul's UcD 700 OEM module has items 1, 2, and 3, but not 4. Paul is using a feature of the UcD OEM where the built-in input preamp is bypassed on the UcD. That's so Paul can use his high voltage Class A front end that you see in the photos. The UcD 700 DIY does not have this capability, nor does the NCORE as they rely on the on-board preamp..."

So,Bill_k is correct, PS Audio's new stereo amp will utilize 2 of the older (non Ncore updated) UcD 700 OEM amp modules each powered by a separate Hypex Ncore 1200 SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply). PS Audio has designed a proprietary class A and A/B solid-state Input Stage which owner and chief designer Paul McGowan claims will be mainly responsible for the sound quality advantage his amp(s) will achieve. Apparently, there is currently no Hypex Ncore 700 OEM amp modules yet, so it cannot be used with PS Audio's proprietary Input Stage. Down the road, Hypex may agree to produce new Ncore 700 OEM amp modules exclusively for their audio company customers like PSA that desire discrete input stages.

Dob is partially correct. The dual power supplies, one for each 700 power module, will be Hypex Ncore 1200 switching mode power supplies. However the power modules will be dual Hypex UcD 700 OEM modules, not the top of the line Hypex Ncore 1200 OEM modules. Both of these modules have the trailing 'OEM'(Original Equipment Manufacture) designation because they are reserved for sale to other audio companies' for use in their Hypex class D amplifier offerings using proprietary input stages.

The Hypex 'OEM' designation just signifies that these modules can be coupled to proprietary Input Stages.

Paul M. has stated he wants his new amp, currently code named "PWA" I think, to sell for approx. $4,000. A fairly good price if sound quality is as promised.

He has also stated, however, that he didn't think he could meet this $4,000 target price if he utilized the admittedly superior Hypex Ncore 700 or 1200 OEM amp modules.

Paul M. also claims, though, that his very capable proprietary Input Stage attached to the UcD 700 OEM amp modules will outperform an average/typical Input Stage attached to either the Hypex Ncore 700 or 1200 OEM amp modules. Comparisons of his amp to other newer amps like Mola-Mola Ncores, Acoustic Imagery Atsahs and Merrill Audio Veritas, utilizing the Nc1200 modules should be very interesting. I believe all but the Mola-Mola use proprietary Power Supplies and Input Stages.

If Ps Audio's amp is a winner, I wouldn't be surprised if they came out with another lower priced and powered class D amp, utilizing the same or similar Input Stage but attached to lower cost amp modules, such as the Hypex UcD 400 amp modules.

Thanks,
Tim

" Yes, well over half the expense is in the NL produced Hypex modules - two 1200 watt power supplies and two 700 watt modules"

"Exactly which 700 amp modules is Paul referring to"

These are Hypex switching power supplies.

However, I afree with Bill_k that for $4k MSRP, Mr.
Gowan cannot afford NCore 1200 x 2 plus their PSU x 2

Paul (from PS Audio) has clearly stated that his amp design will not be using the Ncore modules.

Hifial and Kana813,

You are both correct, the target price for this dual-mono stereo amp has been raised to $4,000 from $3,000. My mistake.

I read the following quote from Paul M. in the comments section of Kana's link:

"Yes, well over half the expense is in the NL produced Hypex modules - two 1200 watt power supplies and two 700 watt modules. The PS contribution input board and the chassis form the other half.

I was really shooting for $3K but after adding up the costs that just didn't fly."

But this quote raises some questions:

1. Exactly which 700 amp modules is Paul referring to; the newest Hypex Ncore 700 modules or the older Phillips UcD 700 modules?
It's my understanding that Bruno/Hypex obtained the rights to produce and sell updated versions of the original UcD modules that contains technology Bruno had patented. If this is true, any reference to 'Hypex 700 amp modules' becomes ambiguous since it describes both the new updated Hypex UcD 700 module and the newest Hypex Ncore 700 module.

2. Again, if this is true, what are the differences in costs, applied technologies and sound qualities between the updated UcD 700 and Hypex 700 amp modules?

I know I may be splitting hairs with these distinctions, but I'd appreciate any assistance in answering the questions above. I'm starting to get confused.

Thanks,
Tim

Kana813 beat me to it.

Tim/Noble100:Your price for the PS Audio amp is out of date.
Paul is trying to keep it just under $4000.00. It is a dual mono(single chases) to help keep costs down. See below from the PS Audio Forum.

"adminPaul McGowan February 25 Reply QuoteThanks
Posts: 2,862PS Expert
Finally, we are less than a week away from listening to the prototype amp in its chassis. Here's a picture of the insides.

I've heard bits and pieces cobbled together but not all that we put into the amp and not in a form where I can start dialing it in.

What you see here is the 350 watt per channel dual mono amp that can do 700 into 4 and 1200 into 2.

The big board on the left is the Class A gain stage that's all discrete and makes the amp sound like it does. We're probably looking at $3995 for this dual mono version - but it'll drive about anything made.

I should be able to listen to it this weekend - Bob's promised me i can start testing and evaluating, tweaking, voicing and all that we do by then.

I am stoked to actually be able to try this beauty."

Also, the UCD that Paul has mentioned using may not be, from my understanding, one of the UCD modules that have the trickle down Ncore tech in it.

However, I am sure that it will be a killer Amp at that price, what with Hypex and PS Audios front end.

He hopes for a "July" (most likely August) release.

The target price for the PS Audio class D amp is now $3995.

See:
http://www.psaudio.com/forum/#/discussion/5000/anyone-interested-in-seeing-the-new-amp

Hello Hifial,

Yes, I do know that Bruno P., who created the UCD (Universal Class D)line while working for Phillips and who invented the later Hypex amp modules while working with Hypex, formed the Mola-Mola company (not sure if he's sole owner or has partners) as a means to introduce/produce his own version of a completed class D amplifier utilizing his own Hypex Ncore 1200 module. As you know, these amps were debuted, in monobloc form, at the NYC Audio Show you just attended.

Bruno P. has also stated, in an effort to support the DIY market, that he will make available to the general public all but the top of the line 1200 modules (700 and smaller power modules). He is reserving his top 1200 modules for sale as OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer)licensed product to other audio companies that want to make completed amplifier products with his modules.

My understanding is that PS Audio probably will not be utilizing the Hypex Ncore 1200 modules in their soon to be released new class D amp. Instead, they will most likely utilize one of the recently updated UCD modules in an effort to keep their offering more affordable.

I think PS Audio's new amp will use a proprietary Input Stage attached to a UCD700 and the current target price is $3,000. Mr. McGowan implies that his Input Stage is very good and will improve the performance of any UCD or Hypex modules it's mated to.

Thanks,
Tim

03-29-13: Jtwrace
"Since he has ties to Merrill, you will not get a unbiased review. "

Wow, that is funny coming from someone who got a sweetheart deal for beta testing the Atsah nc1200 product....Guess you forgot to mention that....

Noble100: Mola-Mola is Hypex/Ncore.

I hate to burst your bubble but it is my understanding that Hypex has no plans to have the Ncore at a lower price point. Maybe someday they will release a down the product line Ncore. But that is why they have the UCD line. So I doubt it.

Kana813: Well this has been done before with Hypex UCD.

An example is the Genesis Reference Amplifier.

Link. http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/grefamps.html

And done very well.

I am also very curious to see how well the PS Audio amps turn out.

Good points ESanchez... I tend to think of class D power conversion modules as basic electronic parts, around which a designer implements a particular circuit design, exactly like a KT88 or 6550 tube. Such a design can be quite minimalist, in which case the inherent characteristics of the part yield the most noticeable character to the amplifier, good or bad as it may be. Other designers prefer to create around such parts more sofphisticated topologies, that harness the underlying potential of the part into a whole that instantiates the amplifier's creator philosophy more than any idiosyncratic behavior of the module.

G.

"Is it because of divinde intervantion?... or we already finished development of power amp and anybody including Mr. McGowen can buy mass production module instert it into his own design chassis with his own colors and logo (with his or other input stage) and Oh-La-La, we arrived in Paradise (without 72 virgins)?"
Dob (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Dob,

My short answer is perhaps. However, I must admit I've been consistently highly skeptical of the existence of a divine power since my college days.

For argument's sake let's assume a divine power exists, as many well meaning humans believe. Wouldn't you suspect this god would bestow a few positive things to mankind, along with his many dark side gifts such as those 10 depressing sins, huge floods, fire, brimstone and those nasty and pesky massive insect swarms? Isn't it possibles, in one of his lighter and more benevolent moments, he declared "it will be so" and bestowed a ss ("that shalt be called class D") amplifier that behaved like a "straight wire with gain" upon his flock to try to balance the ledger? If god is an audiophile, I would wager he has one hell of a system. Definitely Valhala cables with top of the line class D amps.

As to your other point about designers utilizing these new and relatively inexpensive amp modules to start rolling out new amp creations with their own unique surrounding engineering technologies ( capitalizing on high profit margins to make large profits), I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is a possibility. This is already an issue with some current higher priced amps such as the Mola-Mola, Merrill Audio and Mark Levinson offerings.

I don't think this is a big issue since some of the wealthier audiophiles among us are likely to be more than willing to pay the premium prices for such an attractive and simple solution to their amplifier needs(wants).

It will probably just be a matter of time before a smart entrepreneur realizes that a lower priced, and lower profit margin, amp would also be highly profitable if sold in high enough numbers. A company like Tom Ross's ClassD Audio is well positioned to capitalize on some lower priced Ncore based amps.

Also, if there is a divine power, I hope he turns his attention to affordable room treatments next.

Just thinking out loud,
Tim

Dob, stridency is not helpful. G.

" According to most listening impressions, including my own, Class D technology's main overriding sonic characteristic seems to be that it sounds like nothing. In other words, class D's main sound character is a total lack of a sound character."

Is it because of divinde intervantion?... or we already finished development of power amp and anybody including Mr. McGowen can buy mass production module instert it into his own design chassis with his own colors and logo (with his or other input stage) and Oh-La-La, we arrived in Paradise (without 72 virgins)?

Those are good points, Noble100.

I few days ago I was playing Janos Starker Bach Solo Cello Suits on vinyl. My wife walks into the room and we had this conversation:

W: why are you playing this particular record?
Me: because I wanted to know how it sounds with the new speaker cables.
W: oh.
Me: how does it sound?
W: it sounds like he's in the room!

Class D is here to stay. A well designed amp, and any other piece of audio gear in the chain, should just disappear and let the music through.

Judging from the success of companies using OEM class D modules, it seems that the ones that gained the most acceptance design their own input stage, along with other modifications to the amp architecture, perhaps to compensate or correct what they consider deficiencies in the OEM amp topology.

This is fascinating info Kana.... Could you post the url of the McGowan citation?

McGowan confirms my own conjecture that, while Ncore constitutes in itself an excellent premise for implementing a high quality power amplifier, designers need not limit themselves to the inherent properties of the part, but should be able to create advanced circuits that may exceed the base properties of the underlying power conversion module in ways that are consistent with their own sonic philosophy. I suspect that designing unique input stages may be only the beginning of what one may be able to implement around an Ncore or UCD module, depending on market targeting and designer preferences.

I am confident that things will get exciting over the next couple of years.

G.

Noble100: I totally agree with your statement.

Although my experience with class D amplifiers is with modules that some might consider inferior to the Hypex Ncore modules, Mr. McGowan's statements appear very accurate to me. According to most listening impressions, including my own, Class D technology's main overriding sonic characteristic seems to be that it sounds like nothing. In other words, class D's main sound character is a total lack of a sound character.

I think it is this character, or lack of it, that makes class D so impressive. It has achieved what most amp designers have been striving for since amp design work began: "a straight wire with gain". The amp designers' self-stated goal was a device that accepted an input signal at low voltage, amplified it with no additions or subtractions and outputted a signal that was sufficiently amplified to drive any transducer/speaker regardless of that tranducer's/speaker's impedance.

All other current and past amplifier types have failed to attain this goal, mainly due to either altering the inputted signal or failing to drive speakers of very low impedance. Class D's success in achieving this goal, imho, is a landmark achievement in the history of amplifier design and the main reason that those of the opinion that class D is just the 'latest fad' can be disregarded.

Class D designs will obviously become the wave of the foreseeable future, at least until the next major achievement in amp design.

Mr. McGowan's comments about the importance of the, or his, input stage in the performance of a class D amp's performance is completely consistent with the concept of class D having no sonic signature. His input stage, and anything else preceding the class D amp modules (preamp, dac, source or anything else), will be the major factors determining the sound quality of a system. The final factor influencing the sound quality will, of course, be the speakers selected/matched.

I wish the best to PS Audio and any other amp designers working to maximize the performance of this exciting new technology.

Just my 2 cents,
Tim

It will be interesting to see how the stock modules in a box, $12K Merrill Monos compare to the $4K PS Audio Hypex amp to be released this summer.

According to Mr.McGowan:

"Basically regardless of which core we use, the 700 UCD or the Ncore, the sound quality is almost all found in the input stage. By that I mean if we were to use the Ncore and put on a lesser input stage, the sound would not be as good as the UCD with an exceptional stage. Pretty much everything you are hearing with this amp, in terms of pacing, transparency, frequency extremes, control and dynamics are all controlled by the input stage design. Both of these Hypex modules are off the chart in terms of quietness, control and linearity - we just ran a bunch of sweeps, Vin vs. Vout, IM and THD and very high levels and it's as if the Hypex stage is not even there - it mirrors almost identically the input stage performance."

And here is another one.

Merrill Audio: "Not For Tube Lovers"
By Ariel Bitran • Posted: Apr 16, 2013
Merrill Wettasingh of Merrill Audio says his class-D Veritas Monoblock amplifiers are "not for tube lovers." The crimson or black chassis is made of a solid 60lb billet of aluminum. Allowing only spade connection for the "best and biggest" sound, these 400 watt (8 ohms) power-houses seek "audio purity" rather than coloration, according to Wettasingh.

Very interesting posting by The Absolute Sound. These are the same people now being accused by Harry Pearson (the creator of The Absolute Sound) of writing favorable reviews in exchange for advertising in TAS. I wouldn't be surprise to see Merrill Audio placing an ad in TAS with that quote in it.

Audiogon members with no affiliation to the brand they own have a lot more credibility than many "professional" reviewers. My entire system was built based on information I gathered from this website and I'm absolutely happy with it. So I choose to believe no-brand-affiliation Audiogon members and their comments over "professional" reviewers recommendations.

Also here is another professional posting of the listening impressions of the sound in the Merrill Audio Veritas and Mola-Mola amps rooms.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/new-york-audio-show-the-big-apple-goes-big-time/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&page=2&utm_source=email-109

"Rhapsody Music and Cinema outfitted three rooms, each at different price points. At the lower end room (relatively speaking), I met a new company with the unlikely name of Mola-Mola. New York was effectively its U.S. launch, with products becoming available in June. On hand were the $10k preamp and the Bruno Putzeys-designed Class D $15k monoblocks. They were sourced by the all-new, double-DSD capable Luxman DA-06 DAC ($6k, June). Driving the Giya G1 speakers and wired with Kabula-Sosna cables, the sound was, in a word, lovely.

At the highest price level, Rhapsody fielded a roomful of equipment from Kondo Audio Note Japan. (Note to manufacturer: could you please just call yourselves Kondo?) There were Kondo Audio Note Japan (OK, that’s the last time I’m doing that) speakers, electronics, cables and ‘table, plus a Pi Greco CD player. Total price: $400k, including a prototype of the 55 Watt Kagura SET monoblock amps, which will see production next year at a price somewhere north of $160k.

Although the sound in the Kondo (….) room was very fine, I personally was more taken by Rhapsody’s “middle” room, which was anchored by the amazing, stand-mounted Raidho D-1.1 ($28,500). Are these guys on a roll or what? As driven by a Kondo G70 preamplifier (see how much better that works?) and Merrill Veritas amps, the Raidhos delivered better bass than any speaker this size has a right to. Overall, the sound was sweet and spacious, despite some room-borne mid-bass resonance. BTW, elsewhere in the show, this same amp paired beautifully with Sanders Sound’s new flagship ‘stat, the 10C ($14k). The duo delivered some of the best imaging I heard, along with other virtues, such as transparency, that one expects from good electrostatics."

Guido and others; the TRL NC1200 based amps are in the center of this photo and are orange/gold in color.

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78956

Jdec, sorry Mr. Grzybek passed away. The email I received was from his own personal ID.... Probably handled by a service machine, or perhaps his estate.

G.

Guido,

I think the Ncore 1200 based amps you're looking for are the Tube Reseach Labs 600 Monos.

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78933

Hello Dob, Yes, I have the Spectron mono-blocks with the Bybee purifiers and the Joule Electra 300ME. That combo still puts a smile on my face every time I listen to music.

I totally missed room 1019 because I wrote down the wrong # in my list of rooms to attend. The NYAS booklet indicates CARE Audio was in room 1019. They are supposed to be an audio dealer in NJ. This link has a photo of their room with two wooden boxes on the floor, but no description is given about them. Are these the amps?

"Paul Grzybek, responded today that Tube Audio Design is closed."

Odd. Paul passed away last year:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1339113070&read&keyw&zzpaul=grzybek

Hi Dob, you stated that in room 1019 Tube Audio Design featured their new Ncore NC1200 monoblocks, which you heard on Sunday. Are you sure about the name of the company? The web site listed for Tube Audio Design on the Audiogon Industry directory is no longer active. I then sent an email to the company, and its owner of record -- Paul Grzybek, responded today that Tube Audio Design is closed.

What is the scoop?

Saluti, Guido

"This is a quote from Positive Feedback reporting on the NYAS 2013:

Sanders Sound & Merrill Audio
Right across the hallway was another electrostatic speaker, the Sanders Model 10c, and another variation in sound quality. Power was provided by the Merrill VERITAS Mono Blocks, which use the latest Hypex Ncore NC1200.

Radically different than the Martin Logans, the expected transparency usually associated with 'stats wasn't in evidence. The midrange on down was heavy and the top lacked a bit of sparkle."

Hello Isanchez - I heard the same. I called this sound "warmish and boring" - may be your definition "overprocessed" is more accurate then "warmish" but boring it WAS !!!
I also like word "artificial"

If I remember well, you are aslo Spectron owner. A few weeks ago, I audition Spectron stereo with all upagrdes versus SET amp - the rest of the system was the same. To my surpise, the midrange was equally (well, very close) sweet in both amps...

All The Best

I would like to clarify that my posts were strictly based on what I heard at the show and that I am not in any way questioning or generalizing the performance of the NC1200-based amps. Based on your posts, I'm sure you're happy with how they sound in your system. I also think that perhaps you would not trade the sound you're getting in your system with these amps with how they sounded at the show.

These amps are new in the market, so perhaps dealers have not had a chance to really explore what gear mates best with them to get the best possible sound. Every new company goes through this experience to some extent, so time may tell a different story as users start to narrow down what works best with these amps.

I did sit in the sweet spot in all rooms. I also happen to have speakers that sound best in the sweet spot. They also sound great from anywhere 20 - 30 feet away. Sure, the sweet spot magic brings everything into focus and all instruments take their space in the soundstage, etc., but the quality of the sound is always there, regardless of where you are.

We also have different tastes. What suits you and me, may not suit others. In the end, it's what makes us happy what counts:)

Cheers

I agree, that is what I look for in my system. But the best tube amps I have heard are very clean with the least distortion. Unfortunately way too costly, $30,000 and up.
But I understand that some people like the sound that some tube amps that have the "distortion" you like.

As a counter to the PF post see the post below on HP Soundings from the Brill Report.

"My first stop was the small Raidho room, where their new D-1 loudspeaker was partnered with Merrill Audio amplification and a Kondo preamplifier. All of the zest and verve in the Jarosz tune was delivered by this system with great tactile flair, especially capturing Jarosz’s soaring vocals and her sparkling mandolin hits. A little bass boom was apparent, but this was a nice demonstration of the Raidho’s superb coherency, galvanizing high-octane energy and overall gift for capturing pace and rhythm. Interestingly, even in this small room, one could gain a palpable feel for the recording venue, particularly noticeable on another cut I played here: the “Willowtwist” from Michael Gandolfi’s remarkable piece, The Garden of Cosmic Speculation [Telarc SACD]. With the Raidho system, you were seated in the balcony of Atlanta’s Woodruff Performing Arts Center with the sprawling Atlanta Symphony spread out before you."

And also this.

"“Pure sounding” could also nicely describe the Sanders Sounds 10c Electrostatic Speakers partnered with Merrill Audio electronics. Although they were positioned to listen very near field, the Sanders performed spritely and with more tonal weight than I expected on Jarosz’s feathery high vocals and on her bassist’s quick plunges. You could lean-in towards these speakers (positioned only a few feet away) and yet be immersed in a deep, layered soundstage that was quite impressive and full of inner tactile treats."

I must ask, did you (or anyone) sit in the "sweet spot", front center, location in all the rooms you visited in order to evaluate the sound of the rooms?

If you (or anyone) did bravo to you, if not then your evaluation has to be off, just like your seating position.

Anyway enjoy your Spectron amp, they are great sounding amps. I actually almost bought a pair of the mono blocks before I heard the NCore based amps (DIY NC400-OEM NC1200). My only other choice was the Pass Labs Class A (160-200 watts) mono amps.

The Raidho D-1 Monitors were stunning on their custom stands. (The integrated speaker package has an MSRP of $28,000.) It was quite surprising how they are able to fill the room. For a smallish profile, they were amazingly full range and dynamic. This was another room with Merrill Audio amplification.

This just means that they filled the room and sounded dynamic. Plenty of other stand mounted speakers can do that. You can check many other reports on these rooms and you'll find that they either just mentioned the gear in the room or used generic terms to describe the sound.

On the other hand, a lot of audio gear can produce a very clean, taught, fast, controlled, articulate, high contrast sound. But this doesn't necessarily mean that it sounds real. If one listens to a lot of live music, it then becomes more difficult for the brain to associate reproduced sound with live music. What I heard from all three rooms was a sound that was going the opposite direction of trying to reproduce a live performance. I can extrapolate and say that all three systems will certainly sound better in a more controlled environment, but I'm not that optimistic and think they'll sound like live music.

Designing amps can be very, very difficult. It took John Ulrick from Spectron a few decades to produce their excellent live-sounding amps. There are a couple of other legacy companies that also took a few decades of research and customer feedback to arrive at the great products they produce today. Many of these engineers happen to also be musicians. Their products simply aim at recreating a live performance in your room and that, IMO, should be the ultimate goal. An engineer can produce the most desirable measurements from an amp and not sound real at all. On the other end, some high-distortion tube gear can sound so real.

Now, let's not confuse noise with distortion. I've heard a lot of high-distortion tube gear that sounded very pleasing and real. I have not heard a system with some electrical noise in the signal sound pleasing and real.

Musical instruments have all kinds of sound. My wife and I went on a cello auditioning tour a while back. We encountered cellos with fat lower frequencies and clean upper frequencies, cellos that were very quick to recover from excess reverberance, cellos that sounded lean and forward, but the one thing that they all had in common is that they sounded real. And this is the experience I want to dive in at home when listening to music.

Isanchez
I quote you below.

"Many OEM class D designs have had noise issues in the past and the latest generation seems to have corrected that. The NC1200 is in in first iteration, so I'm confident that this is an issue that will be dealt with in future generations."

Well the NC1200 is the LATEST "ITERATION" so...

And his take on the sound is no were near what you describe, just the opposite. Though still not good. But was it the room, the source or something else.

You mention the one quote from PF but what about this one from the same poster.

"Merrill Audio, Raidho Acoustics

The Raidho D-1 Monitors were stunning on their custom stands. (The integrated speaker package has an MSRP of $28,000.) It was quite surprising how they are able to fill the room. For a smallish profile, they were amazingly full range and dynamic. This was another room with Merrill Audio amplification."

It would seem they were fine sounding in this room with the Raidho Speakers.

Also this is just a report of the show not a full fledged review.

Look, you heard what you heard. I am not saying otherwise. Just that it was not an ideal way to judge ANY equipment that was at the show.

What I am saying is I know the NC1200 (and the NC400) very well and in many different systems with many types of speakers and it is in another league when it comes to Class D. It is equal to other types of amp Classes.

If you keep an open mind and you have a chance to hear the Veritas or the Mola-Mola or the DIY NC400 assembled properly (I can not vouch for ones I have not heard) in your system properly set up you will be surprised at how well it sounds. That does not mean it is for you. Your taste might be tubes or whatever. If we all liked the exact same sound it would be a very boring world for Audiophiles and the companies that build the equipment would be few.

HiFiAl

Then if the "noise" was not present during the silence parts then it can not be the equipment. If the noise was inherent in the equipment you would hear it all of the time, even during the moments of silence.

That's not necessarily the case in all designs. Let us assume for a moment that the signal has to pass through some filter before leaving the amp. This filter will only work on the signal, therefore it will do nothing when there is no signal passing through the amp. Therefore, this is a scenario where the noise will be added only to the music (signal), not the silences.

Many OEM class D designs have had noise issues in the past and the latest generation seems to have corrected that. The NC1200 is in in first iteration, so I'm confident that this is an issue that will be dealt with in future generations.

This is a quote from Positive Feedback reporting on the NYAS 2013:

Sanders Sound & Merrill Audio
Right across the hallway was another electrostatic speaker, the Sanders Model 10c, and another variation in sound quality. Power was provided by the Merrill VERITAS Mono Blocks, which use the latest Hypex Ncore NC1200.

Radically different than the Martin Logans, the expected transparency usually associated with 'stats wasn't in evidence. The midrange on down was heavy and the top lacked a bit of sparkle.

As you see, I'm not the only one to have perceived this odd behavior in the context of the Merrill Audio Veritas amps.

Isanchez

Very interesting. Lets assume it was not a bad batch of modules.
Then if the "noise" was not present during the silence parts then it can not be the equipment. If the noise was inherent in the equipment you would hear it all of the time, even during the moments of silence.

The one aspect that the NCore tech that is in the NC1200 OEM and the NC400 DIY modules that everyone who has had a chance to hear one or the other in their own systems is the total lack of noise or Class D sound.

I have to say it had to be the software or perhaps the venue as over the weekend I heard most of the rooms go from bad to good, good to bad sometimes in the same day.

A Club member who is very critical and has the knowledge told me that many of the room were being greatly affected by the AC and the electric in the rooms.

I can tell you I am very sensitive to that type of noise and could never live with it in my system.

The two rooms with the Merrill Audio Veritas and the one room with the Mola-Mola sounded different from each other. But they all had something troublesome in the sound: there was a noise embedded with the sound that made the sound very artificial. The noise was similar to pink noise with the difference that it was present with the sound and no with the silences.

When there is noise present in a piece of equipment, it can be heard constantly when there is sound and when there is silence in the song. In all three rooms, the sound (not the silences) was accompanied by this noise. This made the sound come out as if it was being processed in software, and not by a piece of hardware.

I have a little recording studio that includes the Millennia STT-1 Recording System and the Neumann TLM 49 mic. For what I need it, this is overkill as this setup is used by well stablished recording studios, not so much by individuals. Prior to having the Millennia STT-1, I tried feeding the signal from the TLM 49 directly to Apple's Logic Pro. The software translated everything into sounding like a high frequency mechanical apparatus as making the sound, not like a human voice was making the sound. Adding the Millennia STT-1 and skipping Logic Pro allowed for the human voice to be recorded and played back like a human voice, nothing more, nothing less.

I felt like all three rooms sounded as if the sound as being overly processed by a piece of software, as if the signal was amplifying some noise along the way. This is a phenomenon that I heard before while listening to the first generation Bel Canto class-D monoblocks. Apparently, other first generation ICE powered class-D amps also exhibited this noise, which was particularly noticeable in the higher frequencies.

Since all three rooms had this noise embedded in the sound, it makes me wonder if the nc1200 module is really ready for prime time or this is simply an out-of-spec batch of modules that slipped through quality control.

Kana813

I have no business. If you checked my other posts I have stated so many times it is getting nauseating.

I HAVE NO FINANCIAL OR OTHERWISE INTEREST IN MERRILL AUDIO OR HYPEX!!! I am just a fan and owner of the Veritas amps. Do you own the companies that you are a fan of (MAGTECH).

That is great for your friend and I respect his choice because he ACTUAL made a comparison in his system.
That does not mean you would agree as you should hear it in your system for yourself.

Lets get something straight.

My posts on equipment consist on three types. And post what type it is.

1) I heard it in MY system and to me this is the most important one. I have what I would describe as a very good system that is transparent and resolving (among other things). If a change is subtle I will hear it. I DO NOT LOOK FOR SUBTLE CHANGES in my system. I do not have the money or the time for subtle. It must be an across the board improvement in sound and NOT SUBTLE and not at the expense of other areas of the sound.

2) I heard it in a friends or Club Members system that has a very good system. Hearing equipment here could and has peaked my interest to investigate further.

3) I heard it at a dealer who I am familiar with their set up. This is a "do not drive under the influence" and "precede with caution".

I do not care if the equipment is of the same "Tech/Class/Design/Engineering etc" because unless you have heard THAT product in Your system you really do not have an opinion on that equipment. You are just making an assumption.

Here is a short list of equipment that I have had in my system that I can highly recommend to demo.
I am not saying these are the best just the best I have heard so far and are worth spending your time on.

1) Synergistic Research Galileo Speaker and Interconnect Cells. Just with the entry level cables they come with they beat out some HIGHLY regarded brands that cost far more. I should have kept these.

2) And their Power Cell 10 SE MK II. Again beat out several highly regarded Brands in my system.

Both of the above was by no small margin.

3) PS AUDIO PW DAC MK II with Bridge. For the money hard to beat and it is upgradeable. Set up the right way it rivals DAC's at two to three times the price.

4) The new Stillpoints Ultra SS. All I can say is WOW. Just make sure not to just try them only in one area under your equipment as you my need to find the sweet spot. The Ultra Mini are also worth checking out.

5) I am in the process of demoing something that so far has impressed me but I need to give it the break-in time it needs before I can do any critical listening and comments.

Enough for now.

Hifial,

I haven't hear the Merrill Audio Veritas monos. I have had a Magtech in my system.

I have a friend who compared a stereo Magtech to Merrill Audio Veritas monos and preferred the Magtech.

Good luck with your business.

Drubin

I agree in small part of your FLoA. However this friend is not of those stripes at all. He also waited several months before going foreword so it was no impulse buy. He just is not the impulse buying type. He thought long and hard before he went with the Veritas. As I said the Magtech is a really good sounding amp so he had no reason to spend more money to get a tiny improvement in sound. He is just not that way or that free with his money. AND NEITHER AM I.

But unless you have actually heard those "ANY new product" in your system with the time needed to do a proper evaluation you might be the one who "Don't mean a thing"

Also the Veritas actual cost more then the Magtech so that part falls short.

I have a friend who owns the Sanders speakers and amps, upon hearing the Merrill Audio Veritas vs the Sanders amps he replaced them with the Veritas.

Drubin's First Law of Audiophilia: ANY new product will find a few customers who will buy it to replace a highly-regarded and often more expensive product. Don't mean a thing.

Hello Hifial,

One of the friends of mine who actually presented at the show also told me that NCore1200 sounded "bright and harsh"

I heard what I heard but it could be choice of demo music: at any rate I did not found them very musically involving. May be if I would audition them in my own system I would change my mind.

Boy was I tired last night. There was no need for the correction after all. It was still more just not a hell of a lot more.

I most make a correction in my above post. The Magtech price is for a pair. But I stand by the rest of the post.
Even more so, as my friend had to spend a hell of a lot more to replace the Magtech amps with the Veritas amps. Way more then I thought he had.

I have been very busy this past week and still am but had to respond to the two above posts.

Dob: "warmish and dull" Really?! It is your opinion but what show were you at. Not the same as I.
I heard loads of people from the show say many things about the Sanders/Merrill Audio, Mola-Mola/Vivid, Merrill Audio/Raidho and Tube Audio Labs rooms, but while some liked what they heard and others not so much I never heard anyone describe the sound in the rooms as "warmish and dull". Several people thought the Mola-Mola/Vivid room sounded "bright and harsh" at times. I was at the show Fri and Sat. On Fri I thought the room sounded very good but on Sat a little bright. However I would not point the a finger at any one piece of equipment, amp, speaker, CD player, DAC, preamp etc. It very well could have been the music track as some are poorly recorded.

Keep in mind that show conditions are NOT the best place to get a true feel of what equipment will sound like. Some get lucky in their set up and others do not.

I have heard the Spectron amps and do like them very much.
But I also know many Spectron owners who after demoing NC1200 mono blocks have sold the Spectron and bought the NC1200 based amps.

Kana813: First that was a shared room with both Sanders Sound and Merrill Audio.
Well lets compare an apple to an apple. You are comparing a stereo amp to a mono block. Well Sanders makes a Mono Block version of his amps. And the price is much more as a mono block-$11,000. So lets lets discuss the sound.
The Magtech is a fine sounding amp. But as I have stated in another post; I have a friend who owns the Sanders speakers and amps, upon hearing the Merrill Audio Veritas vs the Sanders amps he replaced them with the Veritas. This person is VERY critical of the sound of his system and has spent a lot of money on his overall system. It was not an easy decision financially as the cost is not small. He is not independently wealthy.

We all have different tastes in what we like in the reproduction in sound. But you should do a direct demo in your system (with a reasonable amount of time) before you dish a product. Even if you think it is "all the same" as for the tech.

Also as I have stated in another post. Is this the best. No, nothing is. But for the price it ranks with the best. Now you have to decide what is your taste, Tubes/Chinese, Class A/Italian, NC1200/Dessert. They are all great just choose the one that meets your taste.

It's too bad that Merrill Audio didn't have the Sanders Magtech amp(s) on hand for comparison on the 10Cs.

IMO, Anyone who pays $12K for the Merrill Audio amps or $15K for the Mola-Molas without listening to Sanders $5.5K Magtech is making a big mistake.

I visited on Sunday. My impression of NCore1200 based amps: Tube Audio Design, Mola-Mola and Merryl Audio - they all sound the same: "warmish" and dull.

I could not A/B any of them with my Spectrons monoblocks but from memory, Spectrons are much, much better.

A friend of mine who also have Spectron monoblocks wanted to have a separate system based on SET amplifier and hi-efficiency speakers. He got SET built by Dennis Had (of famous Cary) and we did a few listening tests.

To my suprise, the "sweet seductive etc" midrange of SET amp was not better then midrange of Spectron transistor switching amplifier (with old fashion transformer base power supply which I suspect is the key to Spectorn sound).
Overall, Spectron sound was much better then that of SET. Regardless of midrange - you need weight, body, slam, soundstage etc.

I did not wanted to post that Spectron midrange is nearly identical to that of SET as not many people will believe it. However, I remember I am not a single one. There is review in Audioreview.com of Spectorn owner who also did the same comparison. I did not believe him at that time.

I wish the best to all owners of "new and imporved" NCore1200 but I am extraordinary happy with my Spectron with old fashion power supplies (with all upgardes possible!). I will add only that in my V-Cap Upgarde I have CuTF caps instead of regular TTFT caps and this make a big difference, IMO

Also, another point. New-er technology may be important but its implementation is much more important then anything else. As far as I can understand "Athmosphere" who produces one of the best tube products in the world and "Spectron" express identical philosophy in approach of building pre- and power amplifier and may be this is the key why Spectron midrange in A/B test show the same sweetness as SET amp

Electroslacker,

I concur with your comments. I've never heard glass cabinet speakers before and this experience totally changes the misconception that glass is supposed to ring. I'm not a glass expert, but I know that glass as material can have many different levels is rigidity. I'm almost certain that the glass the use in the Waterfall speakers is more inert than the one we are used to see in home windows and table tops. The glass that is used in skyscrapers, for instance, is a totally different type of glass. This glass should be able to handle extreme wind forces and building vibrations without ringing or breaking. Based on the sound in this room, they for sure did their research before releasing their speakers to the market.

As for the Vivid speakers. I totally agree: that room was simply way to small for the potential of these speakers. Furthermore, all those rooms in that area were being swamped by what appeared to be a very loud transformer or an A/C compressor noise coming from outside. You could easily hear the outside rumble noise when music was not playing. This forced them to play louder than what they would normally do so to compensate for the outside noise.

BTW, all the rooms in that area were affected by this phenomenon and therefore did not sound any better either. The only rooms with great sound were the larger ones that were on the opposite side.

Let's keep in mind also, that as far as I know, the Mola Mola amps shown are still prototypes. I was told that the DAC and Phono modules for the preamp are supposed to be released in June. So perhaps then, we'll see the final versions of the Mola Mola system.

Rhapsody Music & Cinema is in NY, so I may listen to the Mola Mola amps in a more controlled environment in the future.