I've been reading posts from Hifial and Guidocorona for months. I wouldn't call them totally unbiased since both have their favored brands, But I never doubt their integrity and enjoy reading their posts on class d technology/brands.
I think both are just very knowledgeable and enthusiastic followers of class d happenings. I think any biases they may possess are based honestly through personal experience and listening comparisons. I would absolutely trust either one of their listening impressions to be informative and valid.
On second thought, I would call them discriminating listeners rather than biased ones.
Thanks,
Tim |
I'm really interested in Hifial's listening impressions of the various amps employing the Hypex 1200 modules.
Guidocorona and Hifial,
Just to set the stage, could you guys confirm my understanding of the current state of class d amps going into the N.Y. show? Please let me know if my statements are correct:
1. The Acoustic Imagery Atsah and Merrill Audio Veritas monoblocs are arguably the 2 best current class d amps implementing the Hypex 1200 modules.
2. Bruno Putzeys of Hypex, the man who invented the NC1200 module, is also involved with Mola-Mola and will be debuting his NC1200 based monoblocs (or at least prototypes)at the N.Y. show, driving Vivid spkrs.
3. The A.I. Atsah will probably not be at the show but the Merril Audio Veritas will be there driving Sanders Sound and Raidho spkrs.
It looks like Hifial will have his work cut out, comparing the Merrill with the Mola-Mola amps while driving different spkrs ( the Raidho and Vivid dynamic types and the electrostatic Sanders). Do you guys think it would be more useful comparing the Mola-Mola amps/Vivid spkrs combo to the Merrill Veritas/Raidho combo, and treat the Mola-Mola/Sanders combo as a separate impression, since the Vivid and Raidho are similar spkrs? Or, given both amps use the same modules, would this really just become comparing impressions of the spkrs?
Thanks,
Tim |
Hifial and Guido,
Thanks for both of your clarifying posts, I now have a better understanding of class d's current status.
You may have a tough task coming up, Hifial, but my suggestion is to just relax and enjoy the show. Even if your listening reports are a complete load of crap, what's the worst that can happen? It's not like you're going to be fired, demoted or forced to take a pay cut. And all of us interested readers will still be getting our money's worth.
Have fun,
Tim |
Hifial,
Sorry to take this thread temporarily off-track, but I wanted to make sure my earlier post was not offensive to you.
I certainly don't believe that any of your show reports will be 'a load of crap'. I was just trying to make a point. My intention was to, hopefully, help you relax and enjoy the show. Just wanted to make sure you knew this.
Thanks and enjoy the show,
Tim |
Although my experience with class D amplifiers is with modules that some might consider inferior to the Hypex Ncore modules, Mr. McGowan's statements appear very accurate to me. According to most listening impressions, including my own, Class D technology's main overriding sonic characteristic seems to be that it sounds like nothing. In other words, class D's main sound character is a total lack of a sound character.
I think it is this character, or lack of it, that makes class D so impressive. It has achieved what most amp designers have been striving for since amp design work began: "a straight wire with gain". The amp designers' self-stated goal was a device that accepted an input signal at low voltage, amplified it with no additions or subtractions and outputted a signal that was sufficiently amplified to drive any transducer/speaker regardless of that tranducer's/speaker's impedance.
All other current and past amplifier types have failed to attain this goal, mainly due to either altering the inputted signal or failing to drive speakers of very low impedance. Class D's success in achieving this goal, imho, is a landmark achievement in the history of amplifier design and the main reason that those of the opinion that class D is just the 'latest fad' can be disregarded.
Class D designs will obviously become the wave of the foreseeable future, at least until the next major achievement in amp design.
Mr. McGowan's comments about the importance of the, or his, input stage in the performance of a class D amp's performance is completely consistent with the concept of class D having no sonic signature. His input stage, and anything else preceding the class D amp modules (preamp, dac, source or anything else), will be the major factors determining the sound quality of a system. The final factor influencing the sound quality will, of course, be the speakers selected/matched.
I wish the best to PS Audio and any other amp designers working to maximize the performance of this exciting new technology.
Just my 2 cents,
Tim
|
"Is it because of divinde intervantion?... or we already finished development of power amp and anybody including Mr. McGowen can buy mass production module instert it into his own design chassis with his own colors and logo (with his or other input stage) and Oh-La-La, we arrived in Paradise (without 72 virgins)?"
Dob (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Dob,
My short answer is perhaps. However, I must admit I've been consistently highly skeptical of the existence of a divine power since my college days.
For argument's sake let's assume a divine power exists, as many well meaning humans believe. Wouldn't you suspect this god would bestow a few positive things to mankind, along with his many dark side gifts such as those 10 depressing sins, huge floods, fire, brimstone and those nasty and pesky massive insect swarms? Isn't it possibles, in one of his lighter and more benevolent moments, he declared "it will be so" and bestowed a ss ("that shalt be called class D") amplifier that behaved like a "straight wire with gain" upon his flock to try to balance the ledger? If god is an audiophile, I would wager he has one hell of a system. Definitely Valhala cables with top of the line class D amps.
As to your other point about designers utilizing these new and relatively inexpensive amp modules to start rolling out new amp creations with their own unique surrounding engineering technologies ( capitalizing on high profit margins to make large profits), I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is a possibility. This is already an issue with some current higher priced amps such as the Mola-Mola, Merrill Audio and Mark Levinson offerings.
I don't think this is a big issue since some of the wealthier audiophiles among us are likely to be more than willing to pay the premium prices for such an attractive and simple solution to their amplifier needs(wants).
It will probably just be a matter of time before a smart entrepreneur realizes that a lower priced, and lower profit margin, amp would also be highly profitable if sold in high enough numbers. A company like Tom Ross's ClassD Audio is well positioned to capitalize on some lower priced Ncore based amps.
Also, if there is a divine power, I hope he turns his attention to affordable room treatments next.
Just thinking out loud,
Tim |
Hello Hifial,
Yes, I do know that Bruno P., who created the UCD (Universal Class D)line while working for Phillips and who invented the later Hypex amp modules while working with Hypex, formed the Mola-Mola company (not sure if he's sole owner or has partners) as a means to introduce/produce his own version of a completed class D amplifier utilizing his own Hypex Ncore 1200 module. As you know, these amps were debuted, in monobloc form, at the NYC Audio Show you just attended.
Bruno P. has also stated, in an effort to support the DIY market, that he will make available to the general public all but the top of the line 1200 modules (700 and smaller power modules). He is reserving his top 1200 modules for sale as OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer)licensed product to other audio companies that want to make completed amplifier products with his modules.
My understanding is that PS Audio probably will not be utilizing the Hypex Ncore 1200 modules in their soon to be released new class D amp. Instead, they will most likely utilize one of the recently updated UCD modules in an effort to keep their offering more affordable.
I think PS Audio's new amp will use a proprietary Input Stage attached to a UCD700 and the current target price is $3,000. Mr. McGowan implies that his Input Stage is very good and will improve the performance of any UCD or Hypex modules it's mated to.
Thanks,
Tim |
Hifial and Kana813,
You are both correct, the target price for this dual-mono stereo amp has been raised to $4,000 from $3,000. My mistake.
I read the following quote from Paul M. in the comments section of Kana's link:
"Yes, well over half the expense is in the NL produced Hypex modules - two 1200 watt power supplies and two 700 watt modules. The PS contribution input board and the chassis form the other half.
I was really shooting for $3K but after adding up the costs that just didn't fly."
But this quote raises some questions:
1. Exactly which 700 amp modules is Paul referring to; the newest Hypex Ncore 700 modules or the older Phillips UcD 700 modules?
It's my understanding that Bruno/Hypex obtained the rights to produce and sell updated versions of the original UcD modules that contains technology Bruno had patented. If this is true, any reference to 'Hypex 700 amp modules' becomes ambiguous since it describes both the new updated Hypex UcD 700 module and the newest Hypex Ncore 700 module.
2. Again, if this is true, what are the differences in costs, applied technologies and sound qualities between the updated UcD 700 and Hypex 700 amp modules?
I know I may be splitting hairs with these distinctions, but I'd appreciate any assistance in answering the questions above. I'm starting to get confused.
Thanks,
Tim |
Here's a copied thread from www.psaudio.com's Community forum thread about the new class D stereo amp due out around mid-summer this year:
"Hypex was supposed to apply some of the ncore tech to the UcD series. Will the UcD modules in the new PSA amp benefit from this?
timequesttimequest March 22
Posts: 348Community Leader
@wglenn...
This response is from Streets Still Works - I've copy/pasted a section from the 6th page of this thread. It answers your question nicely...
@ SSW: "...From the Hypex white paper ( http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore wp.pdf )the Features of NCORE are:,
HypexWhitePaper said:
1) A mathematically exact understanding of self-
oscillation. This allows optimization of large-
signal performance.
2) Improved comparator circuitry insures that
actual behaviour matches the theoretical model
as closely as possible.
3) New gate drive circuitry improves open-loop
distortion at moderate signal levels while signi-
ficantly reducing idle losses.
4) A new control loop ups loop gain by 20dB across
the full audio range without sacrificing stability.
Paul's UcD 700 OEM module has items 1, 2, and 3, but not 4. Paul is using a feature of the UcD OEM where the built-in input preamp is bypassed on the UcD. That's so Paul can use his high voltage Class A front end that you see in the photos. The UcD 700 DIY does not have this capability, nor does the NCORE as they rely on the on-board preamp..."
So,Bill_k is correct, PS Audio's new stereo amp will utilize 2 of the older (non Ncore updated) UcD 700 OEM amp modules each powered by a separate Hypex Ncore 1200 SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply). PS Audio has designed a proprietary class A and A/B solid-state Input Stage which owner and chief designer Paul McGowan claims will be mainly responsible for the sound quality advantage his amp(s) will achieve. Apparently, there is currently no Hypex Ncore 700 OEM amp modules yet, so it cannot be used with PS Audio's proprietary Input Stage. Down the road, Hypex may agree to produce new Ncore 700 OEM amp modules exclusively for their audio company customers like PSA that desire discrete input stages.
Dob is partially correct. The dual power supplies, one for each 700 power module, will be Hypex Ncore 1200 switching mode power supplies. However the power modules will be dual Hypex UcD 700 OEM modules, not the top of the line Hypex Ncore 1200 OEM modules. Both of these modules have the trailing 'OEM'(Original Equipment Manufacture) designation because they are reserved for sale to other audio companies' for use in their Hypex class D amplifier offerings using proprietary input stages.
The Hypex 'OEM' designation just signifies that these modules can be coupled to proprietary Input Stages.
Paul M. has stated he wants his new amp, currently code named "PWA" I think, to sell for approx. $4,000. A fairly good price if sound quality is as promised.
He has also stated, however, that he didn't think he could meet this $4,000 target price if he utilized the admittedly superior Hypex Ncore 700 or 1200 OEM amp modules.
Paul M. also claims, though, that his very capable proprietary Input Stage attached to the UcD 700 OEM amp modules will outperform an average/typical Input Stage attached to either the Hypex Ncore 700 or 1200 OEM amp modules. Comparisons of his amp to other newer amps like Mola-Mola Ncores, Acoustic Imagery Atsahs and Merrill Audio Veritas, utilizing the Nc1200 modules should be very interesting. I believe all but the Mola-Mola use proprietary Power Supplies and Input Stages.
If Ps Audio's amp is a winner, I wouldn't be surprised if they came out with another lower priced and powered class D amp, utilizing the same or similar Input Stage but attached to lower cost amp modules, such as the Hypex UcD 400 amp modules.
Thanks,
Tim
|
Hifial,
Thanks for clarifying. You are correct, Hypex currently offers only the 2 Ncore amp modules: The NC400 for the DiY community and the NC1200 OEM which is reserved for select class D amp building audio companies. Currently, there is no Ncore 700 amp offered by Hypex. PS Audio is using the older UcD700 amp modules in their soon to be released class D amp. Thank you again, Hifial,for clarifying. I want to be accurate on all info I give on class D products and happenings.
Okay, now that we've made sure everyone's clear on Hypex Ncore, should we begin discussing the alternative: Abletec has their own line of class D amp modules that I find interesting. Should we start another thread for Abletec? Or, should we continue on this thread? I think another thread has already been started on this forum. The thread was on the D-sonic M1500 mono bloc amps (reviewed by 6Moons) but it may need updating since it was older.
Thanks,
Tim |
