How to fix my detailed, accurate but BRIGHT system

Now that I read back through this thread, I agree with an above post: your room is huge! You are trying to pressurize a huge, reflective room with underpowered insensitive speakers. Have you experimented with moving your listening seat closer to the speakers? I think you need larger speakers or a smaller listening room...

"My interconnects are nothing special, some Pheonix gold and Monster. I just can't see cables fixing this big of a problem, mabe I'm wrong."

You may be right, but I think you're selling this aspect of a system way short. They're also some of the easiest and cheapest ways to contour sound to our liking. I'd expect you could find some used AZ Matrix Ref. or Cardas Golden Cross interconnects fairly cheaply and if those don't make a marked positive difference you know you'll need to go in a different direction. Quite frankly it seems like you've neglected this important part of your system -- it's kind of like putting the wrong tires on a sports car (and I have no idea what you're using for power cords either, but that's a whole other issue). Suffice it to say I think you'd do well to at least experiment in this area before sinking thousands of dollars in other components if your results/options are limited in terms of room treatment. Best of luck.

Thanks Soix, It sounds like from many here that I should try cables as a possible improvement to my system. I'm always willing to keep an open mind. The lesson can't be learned without trying. I am a true believer in that. I tell my Daughter that all the time. So, I will try ICs and PCs and Speaker cables as part of my venture into making the system I've always wanted to have. I will also try raising my speakers off the floor a bit and try another amp in my system to see how that effects the speakers. I do have an APC power conditioner and a dedicated 20a curcuit for my system for those who asked. I don't have balanced ICs as my amp doesn't support them.

In Reading these threads the last few months, I find the willingness to help refreshing. I have also found people giving each other a bad time. I don't see how this is productive. We all have our own opinions, isn't that what the OP is asking for? With that said, once again thank you for ALL of your input. I will post to this thread when I come up with a solution. I hope it's sooner than later. Take Care,

Sdrenslow, I do have a large room. This room incorporates my living room, dining room, kitchen and loft above the kitchen. The ceiling is 17'.3" tall and flat, so this adds even more volume to the space. Not only that, the entry and the hallway are also open to this room which I didn't add to the footage stated. My seat is pretty close to the speakers at about 9' and the speakers are about 8' apart. I can't change rooms as I don't have another room to put the system in. I do have a 20'x30' out building that i've been thinking about turning into a guest house, cabana, audio room. This may end up happening sooner than later if I can't solve my problem. Thank you for your post.

A PEQ will do the trick if you can't stomach acoustic treatments.

TVAD:On the other hand, we can also not exclude the possibility that he is right. In the acknowledgments section of his book, Harley thanks several experts in specific fields of audio who provided technical review of his manuscript. I am going to take the viewpoint that they know their fields, and that therefore the information provided in the book has been determined to be correct.

TVAD,

Let's try an example, because I suspect that there is some misunderstanding somewhere in the path from what Harley meant to say, to the words he used, to your interpretation of his words, and to my interpretation of your words.

We have a speaker that is 4 ohms in the bass, 8 ohms in the treble, and an amplifier that we are assuming has an output impedance which is negligible in relation to 4 ohms, and which can put out 250 watts into 8 ohms. And we are assuming that the speaker, like most speakers (especially enclosed box type speakers) is designed based on voltage paradigm principles.

Let's say the amplifier is putting out a treble tone of amplitude 8.94 volts, which is 10 watts into the 8 ohm speaker impedance in the treble region. The corresponding current that will flow at that frequency is 10/8.94 = 1.12 amps.

Let's then say that the system is also called upon to put out an equal volume bass tone (either simultaneously or at a different time; it doesn't matter for purposes of this example).

My first contention is that the amplifier will then put out a bass tone which is also 8.94 volts in amplitude, which will correspond to a power delivery, into the 4 ohm impedance which the speaker has in the bass region, of 20 watts, and a current flow of 2.24 amps.

My second contention is that, everything else being equal, an amplifier that can provide 250 watts into 8 ohms but cannot double its maximum power into 4 ohms will handle that situation no differently than an amplifier that can provide 250 watts into 8 ohms but can double its maximum power into 4 ohms.

And my interpretation of your original post, based on your interpretation of Harley's book, is that in this situation you and/or he claim that the amplifier which can double its maximum power into 4 ohms will deliver the 20 watts, while the amplifier which cannot double its maximum power into 4 ohms will deliver something less than the 20 watts, thereby resulting in excessive brightness. Which I contend is wrong.

So am I correct in thinking that there is a misinterpretation somewhere, or do you in fact disagree with any of my contentions above?

Best,
-- Al

Shadorne, I did read your post and have thought of that option before. I am limited with space in my rack and was trying to avoid adding another componant. I'm sure a peq would allow me to change the sound to my liking.

Thanks,

I have found the stock Wadia 170i to stock a little bit on the bright side for me. Granted, there are numerous listeners who like detailed sound. Ignoring all other components, the wadia may be part of your problem. Upgrading the Wadia or using a DIP to reclock and runing it into a smooth sounding Dac such as the Scott Nixon Tube DAC or a TADAC should help. Assuming it doesn't become too smooth sounding then.

You'll never get the results you seek because you are not willing to address the causes of the brightness and you reject the cures. You have a very large room and you use very inefficient speakers. Your room's surfaces are very reflective, yet you use a wide dispersion speaker. Acoustic rooms treatments - can't do! Equalizers - won't do that either! That leaves you with only one possible way out -- a preamp with built in EQ. Check out the various current and past model McIntoshs. But be warned, it's still a band-aid type solution. The mismatch between your room and your speaker is the real problem.

It would immensely help if you would post your system and include several pictures of your room.

Sage advice from Onhwy61..

Thank you for your posts. I will try to find some time to post some pics of my room. I think you will then see why I can't do treatments. I have tried a couple of experiments that have taught me alot about what sound I am looking for. First of all with TVADS advice, I tilted my speakers up by placing 3/4" footers under the front spikes. This mellowed out the harshness from the upper mids and highs alot, but still too bright for me. Second experiment was to by a Yaquin Tube buffer which I placed between my pre and dac. This completely changed the sound. The sound evened out with much more base, more lower midrange and a much warmer, smoothed out presentation with a nice amount of decay. Now, grant you this buffer rolls off the highs a bit, softens up the base and takes away some detail. But, it gets me much closer to the warmer more anolog sound I seek. The third thing I did, again as an inexpensive test is picked up a Play Station 1, $10.00. This was to take my dac out of the system which I believe may be, as someone suggested above a big part of the problem. I didn't expect the PS-1 to sound near as good as it did. I see why people like them. It does lack alot of detail, even more than adding the buffer, so it's ultimately not for me. My conclusion "so far" is that I like the sound much warmer and organic than what I have now, but I don't want to sacrifice the detail to get it. So, something I would like further input on is this. Should I replace my dac with a tube dac that has more detail than the low cost products I tested with, or should I replace my pre with a tube pre to get the sound I am looking for? What dac in the $1 to $1.5 thousand dollar range would fit the bill? Or should I look into a tube pre? Thanks for your help!

Greg

Tvad is correct. Don't keep asking for miracles if your not willing to make the sacrifice...tile floors in the man livng area? Ouch...get some throw rugs at least and some decrative fabric/cloth window treatments.