How to find the good CD recordings?

And then there's the issue of reversed channels on LZ releases. On Steve Hoffman there's a very long discussion about the matrix numbers and which issues have the correct L,R channels.

Speaking of which, one wonders what role, if any, Polarity plays in the differences among CDs.

geoff, I’ll bet phase was not a major consideration for recordings of that era.
As to polarity, there would be no consistancy, don’t you think?
I should invert polarity on the flat sounding CDs.

If the various Zeppelin masters for worldwide distribution had inconsistent channel assignments, how many other mistakes were there?

@n80A small contribution fro me. I started using Tidal two years ago and have since then put huge amounts of good music and also recordings to my playlists. Thought I had it all but no no no... The recommendation for a simle Node 2 or maybe just a Sonos Connect os similar is a very good advice. You might be able to get a little better sound but also if the quality isn't good enough from the beginning its not worth it to search for better material or buy more expensive equipment. The fine with digital is that you start from a very high level compared to before (when I was young). The negative is you get a resolution that is not very friendly to bad recordings (and most are).
Since you like good old rock I would suggest you to look for recordings made 1965 - 1975. Preferably UK artists recorded in the UK. The Who live at Leeds is fantastic. The last issue of Cat Stevens Tillerman might be the most dynamic of all time. It's a little scary to listen to :-) The Doobie Brothers always top notch. Takin' it to the streets the most perfect recording i know of. You can't play that loud enough (on my ATC 150 ASL). There's lot to discover. On these recordings it feels that the technicians didn't interfere at all (or didn't know how!), they just put the music through. Nowadays, I would say you find the best sound in the Americana and Alt-country scenes. But if you are playing LZ and feel the music is flat then I must advice you to change some equipment of yours (speakers). The last issues of LZ I - III are very dynamic. A little overemphasized around 2-4 khz which could bring you some fatigue if you're listening loud, but you can feel the kick!! I also would like to thank the person that gave us Black Cat Bones - like finding a new Free record!

Thanks gosta. I'm still working out all the pros and cons of Tidal. If it is worth it to pay $20 a month ($240/year!) for the hi res stuff then it seems to me it would be imperative to have the equipment to listen to it at the highest quality level and I'm still just not sure how to do that or even if I want to spend that much more money for that additional equipment.

I might even consider the low-res subscription just to find music I like and then find good recordings of it on CD.

I'm re-listening to my earlier Zep CDs and maybe they'e not as bad as I thought. I think more volume (they way it was intended I suppose) would probably help. 

Replacing the equipment I have (which was all free) is not really an option. I'm fairly sure I cannot afford higher quality than what I already have (Aerial Acoustic 7Bs) unless I started trading and selling which is a rabbit hole I am not going down at this point since I really don't know enough to do so.

As I've been listening to my CD collection again (it has been years, only about 100 CDs) there are some standouts. I mean obvious, immediate standouts. The original release of Sting's Soul Cages is just amazing. I keep going back to it over and over. It is one of those situations where even though none of the songs on the album are my favorites, the sound is so lush and bright that I keep wanting to hear it again. The same with Pink Floyd's Animals and Wish You Were Here.

Hi again!
Yes if the record was med loud I think it needs to be listened to loud if you want to have the right feeling of it. The human hearing functions that way (the loudness curve). And I'm sure they played rather loud...
Thank you for the tip. Sting is an artist that always have a very balanced and highquality sound. Today actually I happened to find another for me unknown record when seaching around on tIdal. I thought I would have a look at the production of Lynyrd Skynyrd. And I found some live recordings that really sounded live and also with a good well-balanced sound that don't hurt your ears at higher volumes.
And - I found an acoustic record of Lynyrd "Endangered Species" that really stands out. And I mean REALLY. It's absolute top quality. In the same league as Eric C. or Nirvana MTV or Nils L. Maybe better if you prefer LS songs (I do). Why isn't this recording more well-known? Never seen any comments about it. But seen a lot of recommendations on rather dull audiophile acoustic recordings... This is what you sometimes will find exploring Tidal or similar services. And well worth 20 a month. Thanks.

Sting's Ten Summoner's Tales sounds good too but I really dislike a lot of the songs on that album.

@n80,
since you like the hard rock blues that Zeppelin is known for, I suggest you pick up the BBC Sessions Remaster (1997) CD. It's 2 CDs with side one containing blues performances in the BBC studio. And it's outstanding SQ; raw with great studio ambience.
Side two is LZ performing live in 1971.

And if you'd like to know which versions of the Zep CDs you own, feel free to PM me. I'm sure I can identify them.

I will look into that. I may have some of that on vinyl. When I was in college in the early 1980’s I bought a used double album called Led Zeppelin BBC Broadcasts. It cost me $20 which was crazy money for me back then. It was my understanding that it was bootleg and it looks it. On the back it says "Taken from BBC Broadcasts in 1971 and 1972 recorded at the Royal Albert Hall and at the BBC studios in London. Under that it says, " Due to the unavailability of some master recordings and transcription disks, some surface noise may be evident on certain tracks."

If I remember correctly the SQ is not too good but some of the performances are great. The back of the album lists Whole Lotta Love including "Minnesota Blues" which is really Elvis’s Mess of the Blues. Plant is fantastic with this. I need to put it on the TT and see what it sounds like.

Here it is on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-ZEPPELIN-BBC-Broadcasts-NM-Sunburn-Eva-2x-double-LP-Royal-Albert-Hall/1...

I also have what you are referring to via iTunes. It includes Traveling Riverside Blues and The Girl I Love She Got Long Black Wavy Hair. I think those are the best two songs out of the whole bunch.

I need to get that CD. I’m pretty much done with iTunes.

Hi n80,
  There are many LZ bootlegs. BBC Sessions and The Complete BBC Sessions are official Atlantic releases remixed by Page.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-BBC-Sessions-3CD/dp/B01IOAAZSE/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_15_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&...

This may be what you have on iTunes. Disk one was recorded in the BBC studios and is very good quality. These were live to tape recordings for broadcast.

The latest release is a bootleg called How The West Was Won. Jimmy cleaned it up and released it as an official remaster. The performances are really exciting, the band is young and really into it. Disk one is compressed but it doesn't matter because the band is so good. The SQ on disk two (at the LA Forum) is quite good.
  Just don't make the mistake of buying the original bootleg which is still for sale.

I have How the West was Won and the BBC sessions. Everything LZ put out is so great musically. Everything is enjoyable due to the superb playing and chemistry. Of course they ripped off a great deal of music from others but that is not so important because it really is the performances that shine - playing on a level that really stands out against anything before or since. The individual skills are not as important as their combined chemistry - this is what makes LZ unique, IMHO.

Right on @shadorne .

Greetings George!  I used to feel your pain in finding music that "sounded" right or good also.  As mentioned in other posts, the Dynamic Range Database is the place to go for CDs, SACDs, or LPs information.  I did not read every post completely but and could have missed it but didn't see the address for you to find this valuable info. I don't buy anything now until I have at least checked it here first...
So, here you go...and Enjoy the Music!
dr.loudness-war.info

Cheers

@gosta   


+1 your comments on music.

Check out Hey Negrita or Curse of Lono - not necessarily for the recording quality but for the music!

SACD's sound pretty good on my Mac system

CD recordings matured like any medium. Take records recorded in the 30's and compare them to recordings in the late 40's and then the 50's. CD technology improved as did analog recordings. This CD bashing is way off and done for marketing to boomers on a dying hobby and a hobby which is driven by boomers. Young folks have their own way of enjoying music and that is free streaming from many sources where there is no need to buy a whole recording but a song of 2 they like. The only thing you have to stay away from is the current trend of highly compression both in Vinyl or CD or Streaming the format does not matter. Look for good mastering labels and if you like current produced music then expect not stellar sound. My experience anything from the late 90's through today sounds good as long as the mastering was done correctly. It gets down to the artist you buy and the recording was produced more than the format. I've collected music for 45 years so I have the experience in both formats and believe I sold many LP's at recorded collector shows that sounded god awful so the myth about vinyl being superior is a myth, it all gets back to the production of the recording, garbage in equals garage out.   

Regarding the LZ CDs in all their incarnations I don’t think there is a unanimous approval for any of them.

Reading all the threads on various forums you get recommendations for all of them.

The key is to find posters with preferences and systems like your own - kinda like food or movie critics.

For me, the Diament CDs are my go to; I’ve tried the 2014 remasters, didn’t care for them. Much louder, brighter/brittle; great for low level listening when the baby is asleep and you want to hear detail. For cranking? Nope - like evil gnomes with ice picks attacking my eardrums.

The Diaments are for cranking loud - for me, for my system, for my preferences.

By coincidence I found the first Led Zeppelin II LP in some thrift in MD. It’s the one with STA etched in the trailing vinyl. Anyone heard it? It’s the one they say had to be remastered due to some cartridges flying out of the groove. But it’s not the SS RL issue.

compression, EQ and bad mastering killed many CD issues of LPs.When CDs 1st arrived, most labels used EQ'd masters to make CDs from, as compared to a 1st gen master mix flat 2 track, or even a 2nd generation flat.
An EQ'd master was made in the days of vinyl to compensate for the physical limitations of vinyl.  Vinyl is really only good for 18 mins per side with decent dynamics.  When LPs became 25 mins per side and the last song was most dynamic, the mastering engineer really had to compensate.  Great ones could make compensation during songs if need be, but most stuck to changes in between songs, so as not to shock the ear.
But even then, when a US label shipped a master to the UK for local LP or CD production, it was still 2nd gen.
I was recently looking for a cut that I knew I had on at least 3 CDs.  They sounded completely different from each other.  One was a US issue and the others on later Brit collections.
A lot rests in the recording engineers hands.  Glyn Johns, Tom Dowd, the Beatles guys - Emerick, Scott, MacDonald, Smith, and others. Brilliant sound with minimal mics.
Check out Buena Vista Social Club for a truly fine recording with space and limited augmentation of sound.  Jerry Boys, old school Brit.

Original CD pressings from the 1980's are a real sonic joy and Remasters, unfortunately or at least 9 times out of 10 sound like absolute rubbish. In the event of remastering, the recordings themselves are just made 'louder' which follows suit to the so called 'loudness Wars'. The decimation of the cd's warm character was destroyed around 1997 when music mastering for the cd in general took on a whole new persona. Above all, It is really quite sad really. 
Long story short. Stick with original cd pressings. Most of the comments are on here that I've read are absolutely right on the money. 
My advice. If you plan to buy a cd that was recorded after 1997 go to drloundnesswarinfo.com
it is a pretty good database of info that tells you the DR value of the piece of music you are interested in. 
Lastly. I must share one remaster that is actually far superior than that of the original and that is Metallica's 2017 remaster of Master of puppets. It wasn't made 'louder' it is an actual proper remaster. Fixed the bloated low end of the guitars that really took over. The sharp treble from the cymbal crashes lost its heavy bite and the vocals were smoothed out slightly. Everything a great mastering job should do! Check it out and happy cd hunting! 

If there is one thing I know. It is great recordings so if you wish for me to give some suggestions to you, especially in Prog rock I'm so happy to help. 

-nicholas

@shadorne 

++1 on your recommendation. I would say very well composed, played, sung and produced americana. Nice warm organic sound. Live feeling. Even the harmonica! Curs of Lono have great harmonies and impressing sound landscape with lots of interesting details. You could almost believe Daniel Lanois was sitting there behind the controlboard. Hope they will make a hit song! Other favourites:
France Gall - Concert public - Concert privé 
Pretenders - Live at the Isle of view
Guy Clark - Keepers - A live recording
Little Feat - Waiting for Columbus (PLAY LOUD!! - not best quality though...)
Enjoy!

Thanks for all the great advice and discussion folks. I'm still all ears.

Okay Nicholas, how about dropping the names of your 5 favorite prog rock CDs? Or more if you have the time.

I looked up my Zeppelin CDs on the dynamic range database. My 1990 Zep I Diament did not rate very well, but II and III by Diament and IV by Page all rated very high.

I'm going to look for a Physical Graffiti CD next. I'll use the database but open to suggestions as well.

I have all of their major releases on vinyl but most of those are worn out. I have two In Through the Out Door albums. One is still in the brown rapper and the sleeve is unmolested by water so it is in decent shape. The others were mishandled......and played on a record changer stacked high! Remember those?

One can’t help wondering how many Led Zeppelin CDs and LPs over the years were mastered in Reverse Polarity. I bet a bunch.

Some CDs have skyrocketed in price, to the heights of rare LPs. An average Gold DCC jazz or rock CD typically is listed for $150 to $250. Some of my rare Pearl and Biddulph CDs are in the same range. Classic CDs $400 to $600 each.
I have most of the Classic CDs, dozens of gold DCCs and a smattering of the high value Pearl and Biddulphs. I paid less than $15 for any of them. The remastering engineers such as Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman for the DCCs should have kept a box of each of their CDs (let alone their LPs) which would have brought them a fortune today. They didn’t for space considerations.

As you can tell, I’m not into streaming yet (or ever). I have had multiple CDs from the same pressing facility sound different which is an unfortunate situation as we all can attest to from LP stamper/pressing differences.

I didn’t start collecting CDs until the early 1990s because they did not sound good relative to LPs. The vast improvement in CD players made them currently equal to my LP playback equipment (both high end now). So, now I have 25,000 LPs, 7,000 CDs and 7,000 78s (dynamic and room filling mono sound, lacking in frequency extremes and for orchestral recordings, missing many subtle sounds). If it weren’t for CDs, great remastering engineers such as Ward Marston wouldn’t have produced such exquisite sounding early vocal and piano recordings at very affordable prices (Many recordings are priceless with CDs filled with 25 78s for only $18/disc). These are not recordings available on Tidal or any other streaming service.

I prefer owning the media because of the accompanying booklet/back side/information. I really appreciate large collections well remastered by Sony/RCA/Columbia, DGG/London/Mercury and Warner for classical, but they rarely have adequate booklets as do the individual CD release booklets.

Off topic, but my late uncle, a neurologist in New Orleans, was a classical music aficionado first and probably an audiophile second. I remember his Klipsch speakers from the 1970s and that his components were McIntosh.

For a long time one whole wall of the listening room in his house in the Quarter was shelves of LPs from floor to ceiling.

He went entirely to CDs when they came out. I do not know what happened to his LP collection. The last few times I went to see him that same wall was completely replaced with CDs. He had some sort of connection with Sony and Sony would send him CDs to preview before they were released. I think my aunt, his sister, donated the CDs when he died or they were sold in the estate sale. I have a handful of them, maybe 10. I like mainstream symphonic works but have only a basic knowledge of classical music. My cousin has the speakers but does not use them. I think they are in a self storage unit.

I was recently looking for a cut that I knew I had on at least 3 CDs. They sounded completely different from each other. One was a US issue and the others on later Brit collections.

I have been saying that CD releases of the same album sound different and most people disagree. First of all, you must have a system that is revealing enough to hear these differences.
I own US, German 1st and late pressings, and Japanese CDs. I am talking about original flat masters, the first generation from the 1980’s.
When comparing SQ, there is no steadfast rule as to which will sound the best. Very often a German pressing will sound best, sometimes the US will stand out.

My experience (and several of my friends in the mastering business) hear the differences of CDs pressed in the SAME pressing facility using the SAME mastertapes.  I consider this an unfortunate occurrence and really unknown to most CD owners.  As far as different pressing plants (German, Japanese, U.S.) of the same master, there's is even more room for sonic differences in pressings.

n80 I know quite of few people (men and women) who sold off or tossed their LP collections for CDs, for reasons of convenience.  Elderly people had the most need for convenience (I'm talking 75+ ages) and even Frank/Oregonpapa has infirmities which make it more difficult to spend long hours getting up and down to change record sides every 20+ minutes.  I am lucky to be young enough to still play 78s and lift crates of records let alone get up and down to change LPs and volume levels.

@goose , I second your observations. It sound like we are into a lot of the same treasures.
For older blues recordings Verve and EMI rarely, if ever, put out anything that was not excellent. On EMI. I especially like Long John Baldry. Also, Ricky Lee Jones, Cowboy Junkies, and Joni Mitchell always seem to deliver superior recordings. Some of Mitchell, Mark Knopfler and Patty Griffin CDs have an HDCD layer that is not hinted at on the packaging. Hidden treasure if your player can take advantage of this almost forgotten format.

Ani DiFranco to that list! Maybe not the latest cd though. Thanks for Patty Griffin. Silver Bell for me unknown Daniel Lanois production.

Been studing this Dynamic range website. Interesting to see that "finer" SACD, bluray etc pressings seldom means better dynamics. Or is it the measuring method that does not deliver correct results? It compares as I understand average dynamic in a song with highest. So if the song is very loud all the time it could get a low rating, while actually beeing very good and destroying your hearings? Iggy Pop - Lust for life...someone. Also, there seems to be not that great correlation between a dynamic and a good recording. Look at ZZ Top Afterburner which has a good rating, comparable to Pink Floyd The Wall, but is completely unlistenable. And it seems to favor vinyl, which is not how I see vinyl in general. (Ok, I also played Telarc 1812 and Decca Carmina Burana and studied the tracks in the vinyl when I was a little younger :-) Interesting that older cd issues like Nephilim says seems to have the highest ratings (i.e Talking Heads). 

I can't speak to audio, but in the photography world dynamic range is a big issue from film to camera sensors to monitors to printers. We obsess over histograms which show not only the dynamic range (as 'x') but also the amount of luminance across the dynamic range (as 'y'). And you want each of your components to have the widest dynamic range capability.

However, the dynamic range of the finished photo (or print) nor the histogram even, tells you anything about whether it is a good photograph or not.

I suspect the same is true of music but don't know for sure. I'd guess the dynamic range is just one element of what makes a song sound good. Could be totally wrong.

For Gosta (and others): For what its worth;  be sure when checking the DR database that you are on the Specific release: (if near or complete data is avail), the barcode, origin of pressing, the date, etc, as there are many variants of album/compilations (as you know already), and of course not every recording is available unfortunately.  But you are correct in that some SACD releases/pressings are and can be terrible.  I found that out later as I have/had (copies of specific CD's/SACD's that attest to that.  For the most part, the database is what it is, and of course your system will show (or hide) the shortcomings in a respective recording/mix.  I don't believe that if a recoding/song(s) are inherently loud, has any adverse effect on the rendering of the dynamic response logarithm.   Although many LP's are decent, VG, to excellent, there are many terrible LP mixes also.   If it's a poor recoding/mix, then it will show as such.  I also agree with you on there yes to be a direct correlation to the "older" CD pressings generally tend to be more dynamic, as well as many Japanese and EU pressings.  Keep listening and, Enjoy the Music!
Cheers.

n80

I looked up my Zeppelin CDs on the dynamic range database. My 1990 Zep I Diament did not rate very well, but II and III by Diament and IV by Page all rated very high.

I’m going to look for a Physical Graffiti CD next. I’ll use the database but open to suggestions as well.

The Zep CDs were not released in chronological order, but you should be looking for the 1986 and 87 issues. There are the early Target issues from Germany, 1985; excellent SQ, very transparent, but only LZ IV $ HOTH were produced.

The early releases should not have a barcode. And a first release is a nice collectable having a solid silver inner ring, as opposed to transparent plastic.

Timely tip: all things being equal CDs with a solid silver disc around the spindle hole sound worse than those with transparent rings. Don’t believe me? Use a Dremel tool with the abrasive attachment and remove the solid silver layer around the spindle hole. Theory - The solid silver disc is highly reflective of scattered laser light, thus produces more noise.

The solid silver disc is highly reflective of scattered laser light, thus produces more noise.

I guess that’s possible since it’s often advised to use a coating or cover the the reflective areas of CD’s.
But as I stated earlier, finding the best quality CD pressing is a crapshoot. Some of my silver ring CDs have outstanding SQ. However, first issues are not always the best sounding, even when they have the transparent inner ring. I have some late issues that sound better.
I’m a collector of CDs and vinyl so I like owning first pressings, including the silver discs. And they do maintain their higher value.

n80
Rock On!

jafant, will do! 

Slightly off topic but not really.  As I've been learning about hifi sound and going through all my CDs there are a few that seem like standouts in terms of SQ and one of them that has kind of become my test CD and which I keep coming back to is Sting's Soul Cages.

This CD was bought when the album came out, the original release from A&M Records dated 1991, catalog number 6405, barcode is 07502-16405-28. It gets high numbers on the Dynamic Range DB.

It is also marked as recorded in "Q Sound". Looking that up it seems it is not something that caught on. I'm not sure why because it really seems to work. The SQ is so rich, the bass is deep without being muddy or boomy (except on one track, Why Should I Cry for You, where it is clearly intentionally boomy with in your face timpani drum). The CD draws me back as much for the SQ as the songs themselves. 

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there for folks who might want to give it a listen or might have some thoughts on Q Sound.

N80, I agree with your view of the quality of Soul Cages except for that the timpany drum (or what it is) is far away back in the soundstage and that the bass is actually perfect in balance. Not muddy or boomy at all :-).
Interesting what different speakers and room can do to the sound....

However, I would wish Sting used his bass more offensively after he left the Police. It's mostly playing very low and hard to hear at all and in my opinion rather boring to listen to. Actually you don't listen to it at all. Suppose he wants it that way. But besides that I agree most of the songs are really well recorded with layers of instruments and a very deep soundstage. So reference quality and also a fine test what the speakers can do with the bass.

Agree with you about Sting's use of his bass. I may be wrong about this but I never thought Sting was a standout bass player. He is certainly a world class singer and writer but I always felt his bass playing was good but not amazing. Certainly Soul Cages could have benefited from more up front bass playing, like with the Police, but I do get the impression that he wanted it more subdued.

As for the timpani drum, I just meant it sounded boomy in a good way, the way a timpani is supposed to sound. The emphasis in that song is 'boom-boom" . With my system it sounds like someone is hitting it right there in the room right in front of you.

I'm in my apartement now and can't play very loud but will pump up volume in the weekend to find that tympani in my room :-)

N80 King Biscuit up the road from Clarksdale in Helena Ark. really good blues festival in Oct. every year right on the levee. One of the best CD collections I own is the last remaster of Robert Johnson (every song he recorded). It was a box set with also a bunch of 10" vinyl as the originals would have been and some other music recorded at the same time. The 2 Robert Johnson CD's are spooky good, like he is in the room. Especially with a little firewater.........

Thanks jkingtut, we've been thinking about going back in the fall and that would be a great reason to do it. We drove through Helena several times on our previous trips. The last time we were there the river had flooded levee to levee and parts of Helena were under water.

I will look into the RJ set.

@gosta

Check out Weekend in LA On Broadway by George Benson for really dynamic  great live music