I get impatient and wonder what's out there. Audiogon was so
seductive. I try to do my homework reading up on DS vs multibit, DAC
chips, upsampling or not, interconnect limitations per source, etc. and
never could get to the bottom of just how much better an 800-1000 dollar
DAC would sound than what I already had.
How can you finally say "enough!"?
Simple, stop "doing homework" and reading audio threads and magazines. Go about your life and just listen to music and be happy with what you have. You will find out that the more you read, the more perceived inadequacies you will find with your system. Ignorance is bliss!! |
Even Simpler, stop "doing homework" and reading audio threads and magazines.
Go get some room treatments and just listen to music and be happy with moving them around the room and using your measurement microphone with REW.
You will find out that the more you move, the more perceived inadequacies you will find with your system.
Keep BUSY!! |
It would be wise to filter what you read on these forums. Find the industry expert and listen to them. I can tell you that most audiophiles make the mistake of trying one DAC after another thinking that this is the path to nirvana. It's not. It is a system, not just one part that gets you to nirvana. It's like changing a phono preamp over and over without changing the source, the stylus/cartridge and arm. Start with your source and make it exceptional. Then try some DAC's. By source, I mean the feed from your CD player or computer. Jitter is the #1 problem with digital audio, so find ways of minimizing it. If you want to spin CD's, add a reclocker like the Synchro-Mesh to reduce jitter. If you want to stream from a Sonos, add a reclocker to that. If you are using USB from a Mac, this is more difficult for you to reduce jitter. You almost need to get a Berkeley USB converter, used on Audiogon, and drive coax to your DAC with a really good coax cable. Relying on the USB interface that is built-into an inexpensive DAC will probably not get you there. Some find that older NOS DACs sound much more like analog and there is now a resurgence of custom ladder DAC designs that are becoming popular as well. Some of these NOS DACs are inexpensive on ebay. Then there is Ethernet, the best new interface that is generally lower in jitter. There are some gadgets to play with from Sonore audio and others. Some of these can enable you to use Roon, which is very popular. I have mostly abandoned USB in favor of Ethernet for my own products. There are fewer hoops to jump through than USB to achieve superb results. Steve N Empirical Audio |
Well, I agree with the 'ignorance is bliss' part... Supposedly Odin plucked out his own eye for knowledge, and what did it get him - two crows crapping on his cape. There you go.
I'm confident I've done the best with what I have, jitter control and all. I have a hunch that the 'wow' factor would cost thousands of dollars I don't have, so bimby, gumby, NAD, all the ear candy I see everywhere for 700 to a grand will have to sit there taunting me, and unlike Ulysses I can't stuff wax in my ears to thwart their siren call - my speakers will be 'veiled' and lose inner detail, or I can just stick to Judas Priest and GWAR and not worry about it. |
I feel your pain: had the same dilemma when my two Naim NAP250s got stuck in Naim-USA "recap" limbo and I bought BAT VK75SE as a temp substitute. Overall sound was at freakishly another level, I started listening more to "classical" than my usual fix of PF, KS, TD, PT, David Sylvian... But it was painfully clear that my Naim SBLs is a poor match to BAT amp. Did I go shopping? No... ;-( When NAPs got home I sold BAT here on A-Gon: still remember the pain of this thing called "to bite a bullet"!
Now that you asked, maybe its a Universal Pain: should I have married that other girl, should I have gotten a lease on Jag XKR instead of buying Saab?... But somehow that VK75se stuck as a painful experience of my choices...
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It is definitely an addiction, quite possibly a sickness and for some quite incurable!
I found myself mired deep in the rabbit hole but think so far I have managed to crawl back out and am just enjoying listening to the music instead of worrying what might be waiting around the corner that could be "better"
Indeed I bought a 3k DAC, then as yourself started thinking about even higher end.
I changed tack completely, sold the DAC, in process of selling my power amps and have bought an integrated with built in DAC, that might not be quite as sonically "good" as my previous DAC setup but I am just turning on the Hegel and enjoying wither vinyl or cd or streaming music and kicking back.
Consider yourself to have had a lucky escape....lol.
Of course I am also fairly certain this present mindset of mine will change after a few days of perusing ebay and audiogon! |
It would be wise to filter what you read on these forums. Find the industry expert and listen to them.
Surprisingly, written by an industry expert. Hahaha! I do agree with Steve's first line, filter what you read, on these forums, and from "industry experts". Remember, that industry experts have an agenda, to relieve you of your money. Most here have no such agenda. You could do even better by filtering what you have to read to zero. No experts, no forums. Many folks manage to live a life quite content without ever reading an article or forum related to audio equipment. I have never read an article about wine written by a wine connoisseur, as I have no interest. Just imagine how I can somehow still live a relatively happy life, completely ignorant about the finest French wines. Would my life be even better if I had a wine addiction? I doubt it. Feel free to replace the word wine with the beverage of your choice, watches, cars, boats, travel, etc., etc., etc. The world is full of salesmen, whose job it is to convince you that you are missing out on life unless you buy Product X. If you do not listen to the salesman, how would you know how much better your life could be??? Hahaha! Ignorance is bliss!! Seek out addiction, and it will find you. |
"By source, I mean the feed from your CD player or computer. Jitter is the #1 problem with digital audio, so find ways of minimizing it. If you want to spin CD's, add a reclocker like the Synchro-Mesh to reduce jitter. If you want to stream from a Sonos, add a reclocker to that. If you are using USB from a Mac, this is more difficult for you to reduce jitter. You almost need to get a Berkeley USB converter, used on Audiogon, and drive coax to your DAC with a really good coax cable. Relying on the USB interface that is built-into an inexpensive DAC will probably not get you there."
So, Steve, if your DAC only has a USB interface then you're SOL?
Gary
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This hobby is addictive if you focus too much on what magazine and reading thread, post on any audio site especially here at Agon. Well not all audiophile need 10k to put up a good system , Settle for used gear when money come.i know someone who spend less than 2k and his system is very musical, I enjoy his system when I go to his place...Patience is the key .....if I tell you my SB 22 pioneer speakers gives me almost the same enjoyment like my 1k speakers do maybe you won’t agree, But they do... |
.industry experts have an agenda, to relieve you of your money. Some of us actually help people make their systems better. I have been doing this for 15 years. Also, some of us don't pay advertising, marketing departments, legal departments or distributors, so our products are much lower cost than the competition. So, Steve, if your DAC only has a USB interface then you're SOL? So, if you bother to look, you would see that the Overdrive SX has S/PDIF coax, I2S and (galvanically isolated USB or Ethernet) inputs. My point here is to not focus only on the DAC as a panacea. The source is equally important. They are both important. Steve N. Empirical Audio
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I've gotten better advice from industry experts than from the forums, and I've gotten tons of great advice here. Not everyone in the industry is here to take your money most are audiophiles too and love to talk audio. And the smart ones know the person they give free advice to today may become a customer tomorrow.
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So, Steve, if your DAC only has a USB interface then you're SOL? So, if you bother to look, you would see that the Overdrive SX has S/PDIF coax, I2S and (galvanically isolated USB or Ethernet) inputs. My point here is to not focus only on the DAC as a panacea. The source is equally important. They are both important. ************* Steve, I couldn't agree more. But I'm still stuck here, and at the risk of sounding stupid, I need to understand where my system could use some help as the ONLY input on my current DAC is USB. (I think you interpreted the word "your" in my comment above as my meaning your Overdrive SX DAC; I meant your as in "one's"). I have an Eero-based wireless mesh network using a Windows 10 PC. Software is JRiver / JPlay out through the PC's USB port. Setting aside power supply issues for the time being and focusing solely on USB jitter, Marcin at JPlay recommends his JCAT USB Card Femto to improve the USB implementation from the source There's the Empirical Audio's Short Block USB filter, but I think you discontinued this and it's unclear whether it would work with my USB Border Patrol DAC anyway. The Offramp 5 doesn't appear to have an output interface that would "square up" with my DAC's USB port. Could you offer some advice/insight? I feel I'm missing something. |
I need to understand where my system could use some help as the ONLY input on my current DAC is USB.
Okay, here are some things that might help: http://www.sonore.us/ultraRendu.html http://www.sonore.us/microRendu.html http://www.sonore.us/signature-rendu-se.html These are all Ethernet to USB interfaces that essentially eliminate the effects of the computer. Most USB users report better results with these. The ultimate limitation will be the master clock and associated circuits in the USB interface of your DAC. Each of these interfaces has different quality due to design, implementation and parts choices, so some sound better than others. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@gareneau
If you’re going to stick with PC as a transport and want to improve the sound quality of your USB DAC then you definitely need the USB card.
microRendu or any other USB transport will still depend on all 'PC' components before it: media server software & hardware, home network infrastructure and cables.
Best regards,
Marcin
JPLAY & JCAT Founder |
Steve and Marcin, thanks for your inputs. I do wonder how a non-technical guy such as myself is supposed to be able to evaluate the quality of the design, implementation and parts choices in the USB DACs I might be looking at. Right now I'm using Gary Dews' Border Patrol DAC, also Tommy O'Brien's DAC DAC (a real sleeper in my opinion) and a Conrad Johnson HD3).
This is impossible to answer, I realize, but it sure would be good to know beforehand what the degree of improvement one might expect by putting in a USB card in my laptop. A 10-15% improvement in sound isn't worth the time / trouble, at least for me.
BTW, I'm using Scott Berry's (Computer Audio Design) Windows optimization script to minimize PC processes in my laptop.
Gary |
Gary - Most people on the forums are reporting that these Ethernet to USB converters make a big improvement and there are a range of prices and performance on these. see the reviews of the Rendu products at audiostream.com They also have the added benefit of being Roon Ready, which many audiophiles want. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@gareneau Are you using a laptop or a desktop PC? If it's a laptop then you won't be able to use JCAT USB Card - it requires a PC with a free PCIe slot for expansion cards. Laptops don't have such capabilities.
But you can use JCAT USB Isolator which is also very effective. Best to read comments from users and reviewers.
Best regards,
Marcin
JPLAY & JCAT Founder
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Hi Marcin,
I'm using a laptop so glad you told me about the USB Card's desktop PC requirement. Ok, I'll take a look at the USB Isolator - thanks.
Gary |
baxsc01 - My advice is to set realistic goals, have a plan, and listen to audio gear that might work in your system. You can read reviews online or the Audiogon Forum but home demos are best way to find the sound you like. Dealers can supply the gear or you can buy used, keep for a while and resell for a small loss later.
I'm in total agreement about ethernet to USB streamers (or music servers) rather than a generic or modified computer. My experience with several good quality dacs ($4K) and a W4S modified Sonos was never satisfying. Replacing the Sonos with a Sonore MicroRendu ethernet streamer drastically improved the sound quality, even when using a modest dac in my Hegel integrated amplifier. With an outboard quality dac, you can expect major improvements.
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