My experience, BTW, is that not all speakers like to be toed in at all, but compromises for the side walls is often needed. Also, the ideal height for some speakers is below the tweeter axis. B&W often does this, some do this by accident. Ear at tweeter axis / height is a starting point, the sweet spot is often below the tweeter. |
watched the video. not sure his up-mixing comments are relevant to my situation. he starts talking about using a multi-channel receiver or processor as a preamp. and his comments seem to assume everything is already digitized. not a right or wrong kinda thing, just a different universe of system culture. and his absolute focus is on sound staging, not musical refinement and tonal density or texture/timbral realism. it never comes up because it’s not his focus. OTOH my opinion is that sound staging is secondary to those aspects of musical touch. he does not really "get" where i’m at, he needs to experience some different type systems that don’t start from his place to know how this can go. he is talking to a different crowd and set of priorities. the listener needs to look at the media type they listen to, the quality of the sources, and the potential purity of their signal path before you can judge what to do with the level of purity they have. garbage in<->garbage out. what is at risk of losing with the approaches you are contemplating? i have much to lose. but that varies. |
and proper toe in is relative to listening position. if you sit at the top of the equilateral triangle then image height based on toe in is one reality, but move your listening position slightly far field, or slightly near field, the image height will likely vary. and ideal toe in might change. many listeners are not comfortable listening near field or even considering it, mostly due to too much direct sound in less than mature room acoustics, where there is just too much direct sound and reflective energy. but the near field is where the holographic fireworks live. in my large room, i sit in the near field with twin 7 foot tall, huge towers in my lap visually, yet the acoustics allow for a comfortable natural tonality and cohesive experience. you have to work at near field acoustical comfort before you dismiss it, and be open to playing with toe in for ideal staging and height. |
The acoustic of very small room cannot be set as very big room... And great hall acoustic is very different... I dont have money , then i decided to embark in a homemade set of experiments 7 days on 7 for more than a year because i am retired... A dedicated acoustic room make it possible such set of experiments,,, i learned to experiment with passive material treatment but also with what i called active mechanical controls with a grid of distributed Helmhotz resonators tuned by ears all along the room near the speakers and near to my listening position... The end results was not perfect but so hugely different from average speakers in a living room , there is not even comparison...my 2 way box system gave me what a multichannels gave in some way...
It was not perfect because my speakers so good they were , were not top nor my other gear pieces... But my experience was so stunning that it resemble being in the sweet spot on a great musical hall and hearing music around me ... Because my gear was average it can be improved on many acoustic aspects, but learning how to control a room taught me how general acoustic recipe given as solutions can be useful but scratch only the surface of the acoustic puzzles and the acoustic power of transformation in a room... Those who did not experiment it cannot have an idea... If someone want to reach the top, he must create an acoustic room for his speakers , buy the best gear, and buy the BACCH filters....No need to multichannel... Acoustic consist in helping the ears to create, not tricking the ears to go where human brain do not naturally go...The difference between these two roads is very, very small... Milliseconds... It is only my limited experience teachings... There is three main focus in my tuning experience of very small room ( 131/2 feet by 15 feet by 8 feet 1/2) : the main aspect is timbre experience, because you can have localization of sound in space with a not optimal timbre experience or a distorted one....Then in second localization of sound sources all around you....But the third last aspect ask for more work and it is immersiveness, the way the listener is included in the recording acoustic translation experience in his acoustic room reproducing the recording but including him with his listener position in the soundfield... This is possible to some level with purely mechanical means... It is not perfect as i said but going back to normal room listening or even to a room only passively treated with usual acoustic recipe is impossible...But to reach perfection is impossible with homemade mechanical controls made by tuning ears ... If someone read about the BACCH filters i think the next acoustic tool to buy it is this one... I learned a lot doing it... I learn at least that it is less the gear but acoustic that is the basis of audio... We are all different with budget differences and different spaces... Then no one can impose his road to others for sure... I only advise people to read basic acoustic more than gear review...😊
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i agree. to attain that ’proper balance’ is of course, the trick. and it requires that you start out with more energy than you end up needing, so as you do the fine tuning for balance you can reach that perfect balance. in 2015, after i’d been in my dedicated room for 11 years, i took 6 months of messing around to find that perfect balance, and have not touched it since. you can reach that right place and stop. of course, since then i have improved my sources, but my system bones and room has not changed at all since then. here are some notes i wrote at that time describing my fine tuning process. i’ve posted these before but i think it’s very relevant to this subject. i get deep into the weeds for those interested. and note that all this system tuning had almost a zero cost, just huge amounts of sweat equity and time. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/almost-free-and-4-inches-the-final-1.17389/
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/almost-free-and-4-inches-the-final-1.17389/page-3#post-314941
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/suck-out-fixed-i-think.18116/
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/suck-out-fixed-i-think.18116/page-2#post-329496 |
This discussion has been very interesting in terms of provoking thought around what I feel, acoustic treatment wise, is the remaining weak link of my room.
My listening room is my living room, so it has double duty of TV and music. I would love to add diffusion between the speakers, but it would have to be removable which eliminates a solid number of wood options given the weight. Would anyone have recommendations of what could be used? |
@christianb5s4 Unfortunately TV's are a difficult item to overcome. If you can put it behind a movable curtain, that is ideal, otherwise compensate by making sure the rest of your room is treated well. Treat the ceiling, diffuse behind the listener and to the sides of the speakers. |
@erik_squires Out of those, I haven't done ceiling but I did treat the others mentioned. Thankfully I have vaulted ceilings which helps but my WAF of existing treatment is definitely near or at the limits! |
