I have a great relationship with many dealers, that is precicesly why I don't want to waste their time on what would inevitably be a fools errand.
Fact: US MSRP is $8995
Fact: EU MSRP is $6995
This i s a music forum in the end so I'll put it simply and quote Kenny Rogers " You've got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away and when to run".
I don't want to waste peoples time chasing after what, at best, will be their potential to match a price I can simply press a button and buy online from an authorized dealer in the EU. I wont owe anyone anything for the amazing deal they get me.
Cartridges are a tough thing to test and buy, hard to demo and short of an install it's hard for a dealer to show value. I did have a dealer who happened to deal in my turntable once allow me to bring in my turntable and compare it to his with the cartridge I wanted to buy already mounted. Total dealer effort? Make room for me to place my TT on his rack.
Dealers serve a purpose as I've said previously and I wouldn't have been through a few pairs of speakers without them over the last couple of years. They have helped enormously to trouble shoot and earned high margins on those sales. I'm simply saying that selling Lyra's to savvy buyers makes the dealer value prop very difficult. If I was a dealer, I wouldn't be happy with what AQ are doing to Lyra from a price perspective only. Being a consumer, I'm hopeful my dealer beats the EU pricing but it's not going to be an easy conversation for me to have as a consumer who does value my relationship with my dealer. Just not to the point of handing over an extra couple thousand dollars. |
@bbyer Another excellent post! One that i totally agree with. The dealers that i have had long time relations all are willing to talk price, but I wouldn’t bother them either with the scenario that you brought up. Maybe a lot of these folks are losing a lot of $$ due to the pricing differential that is evident on cartridges from country to country. I do know of one a’phile who buys and sells cartridges on a frequent basis, none of which retail for anything less than multi thousands of $$ here in the US. He is absolutely doing two things, one is buying off-shore...and two, is not paying anything like what the US dealers are expecting... |
@dover Very interesting post. The Air Tight PC1 you mention is a good example of this pricing strategy. Now maybe this cartridge was so under priced at its inception and that the market demand was so huge after the review, that this lead to a change in the pricing. We have to believe that market demand drives pricing...and that the price now asked is apparently in line with said demand. OTOH, IF folks were unwilling to pay the current asked price, and the only price that sufficient demand for the PC-1 was at $2000...then I question whether this cartridge would be selling at its current price. Or, maybe the demand is so low, that the distributor feels that they need to absolutely make a killing on each unit sold in order for it to be practical. Either way, presumably the distributor knows what they are doing---or not?? |
For what it’s worth, I think the term "gray market" was coined in the USA in the late 1970s, to describe a market for certain exotic automobiles that could be purchased in the US through normal dealer channels but which in that case would be loaded down by emission control devices and huge ugly bumpers which were then mandated by the US DOT. In those days, those cars if sold in the European country of origin, usually Germany or Italy, were unhampered by such devices, looked a lot better, were a lot faster. (I remember test driving a legal 1976 Porsche 911S; it was a joke on the Porsche reputation. From 1975 to maybe the mid- to late 1980s, "legal" Porsches were no fun.) In response to a demand in the US for unfettered performance from these expensive cars, there was a business associated with illegally importing Euro versions and modifying them to comply with US standards for emissions and etc. Such emission controls could often be removed by owners, once having passed inspection. Problem was that the workmanship performed and the add-on gizmos installed in order to pass inspection were often shoddy. Those cars were not warranted except possibly by the shady companies that marketed them, and that was the "gray market". If something went terribly wrong, you were stuck. Re-sale value was poor.
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Grey market goods are still manufactured by the company , they are just distributed through alternate means. Perhaps a dealer in EU needs to unload excess inventory and sells to an out of territory dealer. These products are of the same exacting quality we all expect, they simply weren't sold by the authorized dealer the manufacture expects to sell in a specific country. Nothing "Illegal" about it, in fact the vast majority of the used items on Agon are by any definition grey market.
Someone made a watch analogy earlier in the thread, only real difference is the demand for watches is far higher than for Audiophile gear.
I imagine it would blow some peoples minds to think there is a wait list for all steel sports model Rolex's. I remember when I bought my first nice watch after college, Rolex wasn't a great brand and they were desperate for sales. Now sales people actually laugh at customers who ask to see/purchase the popular models such as a Submariner. I live near NYC and can't get my local AD to return my calls or allot me a watch. Leaves me no choice if I want a particular watch to buy it "Used" as there is no other option aside from popular Grey websites that seem to alway have inventory being provided to them.
This all reminds me....I actually wrote to my Rolex AD yesterday offering to buy an $11k watch (less popular model) and I never heard back from them!! some business they are in today, hate to see what happens to them when the economy turns.
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Not everyone living in the world where $6000 cartridge is normal and $4000 is bargain. Even saving $2k you still have to pay another $4k just for the cartridge (this is madness).
A lot of great cartridges cost 5-10 times cheaper and the difference between grey market sellers and official dealer is very little so it makes no sense to buy from grey market dealers trying to save $100. So for the reasonable priced cartridges (say $1k max) this problem is irrelevant.
Some people created a lot of troubles accepting prices like $4000-6000 for a cartridges!
When your cartridge retail is $6000 you can save about $1k buying from grey market dealer, but the manufacturer will never swap your worn cartridge for the new one (or next model) for 60% of retail like they do for official buyers, they will send you back to the dealer. Both scenario is weird, once you bought it officially you're hooked and the manufacturer suck your money forever, when you bought it on the grey market cheaper your cartridge can be used until the stylus worn out or suspension collapsed and then it will be refurbished by some one else with different parts.
In my opinion it's better to select and buy 6 different cartridges for the price of 1 for $6000.
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@chakster Great points...maybe. Kind of depends on whether you believe that as cartridge prices increase performance remains the same, past a certain level. IME, that is not always the case, some of the more $$ cartridges do sound better than their cheaper brethren. OTOH, if you are one of those folks who are happy with the performance of their thirty year old cartridge and its veiled performance, then I can see how saving a lot of $$ is beneficial. |
if you are one of those folks who are happy with the performance of their thirty year old cartridge and its veiled performance, then I can see how saving a lot of $$ is beneficial.
I am one of those guys on audiogon who actually compared some of the best NOS vintage cartridge to $3000-5000 NEW modern LOMC cartridges reviewers are raving about. I did the comparison tests in my own system, not at distributor’s system or his shop. And i paid for all my cartridges and purchased over 50 different samples, in my situation it wasn’t about saving money, more like a personal research. Never in my life i would buy a $4000 cartridge again, the price has nothing to do with performance and i know it. This is nothing but marketing and someone already explained this strategy in the earlier posts on here. You’re perfectly explained how big is the distributors margin in modern high-end world. The only way to find out what’s the best is to buy and compare, the only modern cartridge i’d like to keep is my Miyajima Kansui, the rest of my cartridges are all those rare vintage models (the best ever made, mainly MM and MI, but some of the best LOMC too .. all in perfect condition like new and fully original). |
interesting thread.
i happen to be the customer described in the opening post who bought the cartridge which prompted the USA distributor to get upset. it’s a complicated situation which i’m not going add anything here about. people have their perspectives and opinions.
i have bought and sold many pieces of hifi gear in my life, and typically anyone who is selling the brand/model that i have bought gained from my ownership of that product. i am pro-dealer, pro-distributor and pro-manufacturer.
that particular distributor decided his own path.
in my day job i manage a franchised auto dealership and deal with this stuff x1000.
btw; i love the cartridge, it’s easily the best i’ve ever heard. and i've heard a few. |
As the world of high end audio shrinks - so do the dealers that can demo a product. I don't mind uplift when there is good product support and advice - along with demos. Theres a lot of risk in audio these days and at the top end i guess businesses taking big risks on products that don't sell in high numbers justifies a greater uplift. There's an awful lot of manufacturers and dealers who really are not making much money at all - in fact it is a labour of love and in many cases a side job. it's no wonder that many shops and importers have shut up shop and closed down. Maybe they have to work harder for their money now and expect lower profits, but that might not be financially feasible. Think about it - import - duties - stock - premises - staff even before a sale...
I owned my own law firm for a short time and sold it within a pretty short time as people thought to shop for law on the web and through the odd internet search - whilst the law society did not clamp down on charlatan lawyers. You pay your money and take your choice.
I try to buy new goods from dealers - that's just me. |
@lohanimal I think what you states applies far more to gear like amps and speakers than it applies to cartridges. Same goes for cables, reputed to be the biggest profit source in high end audio.
BTW, are there actually any “charlatan lawyers”..? |
Agree with millercarbon’s points. Hell, sometimes with the savings you can buy a SECOND, if you get ripped off on the 1st one or some reason, and STILL come out ahead. And I really think getting ripped off is pretty rare in this game (always shop smart). For those of us who can buy mail order and install it ourselves, the reality is that there is very little value to dealer / distributor support on a cartridge. I build a long-term relationship with my local dealer for tube amps, speakers, turntable, etc - and it works out great! Both parties happy. With cartridges the value just isn’t there. You buy the cartridge, and if it’s going to be defective it’s most likely going to be immediately apparent - so you request a refund for DOA, which applies no matter the source (PayPal or CC dispute as a last resort for sellers who won’t play ball). After that, it’s probably either going to die by your own (error) hand, or through use over a long lifetime (hopefully!).
The only exception to this is if you miss out on any sweet trade-in or rebuild deals that may be provided only through the "authorized" channels (it would have to be a hell of a sweet deal though) - or manufacturers that won't service retip / rebuild cartridges without a paper trail. |
Contracts apply only for the parties involved. The ''third persons''
can't claim any right to others contracts. Judicial simplification
is the reduction to ''creditor'' and ''debtor'' relation. So the importer
has an contract with manufactirer with mutual obligations . If one
of bouth commit default the other can bring charges against him
according to the involved national or internation (private) law.
Those implay judicial procedures which are costly so the practical
solution is dissolving of the contract. Without mutuall trust there is
no honest relation possible. At present with ''on line'' product
distribution the relation is ''reduced'' to direct contract between
producer and buyer with the same ''general'' contractual obligations.
On priciple that is. The seller should publish his liability.
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@daveyf
charlatan lawyers -
there are a lot of unregulated people who cal themselves legal experts that give advice. Members of the public think they are getting a solicitor which would afford standards and protection. Instead they get idiots who ball things up - rip off people and provide a poor service - sadly - in the short term people are happy with cheap fees - until something gpes wrong... |
Sorry about typos - problem with phone screen |
you can't regulate people. The only way is to educate people.
For educated person charlatan lawyers don't make sense.
In audio there is no known standards so education is tricky - for example I know 3 persons capable to calculate and to wind output transformer properly. But these proper results are different. So at the very end it's not standard - it's subjective experience or taste. |
Probably 2K
but it depends
Corona infected country: cartridge for free + 1k from the distributor cash
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