If you doubt the exsistence of LF info on LP, I would direct your attention to several recordings that prove that it IS there:
DAFOS - Mickey Hart/Airto/Flora Purim. Reference Recordings 45 RPM
Respighi/Church Windows - Also 45 RPM Reference Recordings
Stravinsky/Firebird - Sheffield Labs Los Angeles Symphony
Pink Floyd - The Final Cut (side 2 track 1 "Get your filthy hands off my desert")
These are but a few. If your stylus can track them, your amp has the oompf that your speakers need, you will get all the LF info you need, or, can hear. Any of the above are great ways to determine if your arm and stylus are set up correctly. There are passages in these LPs that are visceral, in that you can feel that "punch in the chest" as your speakers push the wavefront out at you. |
How about keeping the stylus in the groove with the kind of excursion required for deep bass at real volumes? The cd has less dynamic range than an lp? That statement is surely based on perceived dynamic range through casual listening. Insofar as drums not being a sine wave is concerned, please elaborate. I actually believed that it was a all a sine wave at any given moment in time which was the total of all the sounds being reproduced, whether drums, kettles or Stradivari. Then again, I come from a time long ago and a place far away. I seek enlightenment. |
Neither of them should be bass limited in useful range ie 20Hz above. But record has higher dynamic range and usually is harmonic rich. Therefore, you feel the impact of bass plus lots of harmonis with a drum without compression due to the "big" dynamic range. A CD can go very deep of course, try organ, but it usually has less hamonics than the sound pick up by a needle. Actually a drum covers not only bass but also lots of info and energy on its rich harmonics, i.e. it not a sine wave. And LP is good at picking up those harmonics (or some may say generating?)
There is no fundamental limit CD can't carry 20Hz data. The "feel" of not much punch is, IMO is due to the limited dynamic resolution and the less harmonics in CD playback. That's why SACD will have more punch than CD. And your ears tell you that LP gives you the most "WOW" punch. And it is a closer one to the live drum beat in orchestra. |
To Nrchy,
My point about your speakers, which btw I also own, is that they do not produce deep bass. The Sonys fall off sharpely by mid-40Hz. Such a speaker cannot be used to make any meaningful statement about deep bass. To make myself as clear as possible, by deep bass I am referring to the octave from 20-40Hz. I respect the fact that you are reporting what you hear, which as you state has been formed by listening to more than one system, but I too have heard numerous setups and I come to an opposite conclusion than you have. Over the past few years I have had in my system digital components by Apogee, Goldmund, MSB, Sony, Sonic Frontiers and Wadia. With the exception of the Sony and Sonic Frontiers each of the digital components produced deep bass that equaled the performance of my turntable. The Goldmund and the Wadia slightly bettered the turnatable in this narrow area. You've made a broad statement that the CD medium cannot produce deep bass. My experiences tells me that you're wrong. |
Onhwy61, my system is not the only one I have ever heard. Even if it were, how would that be relevent to anything? I am using the same speakers for listening to CDs and LPs. Why would my speakers (of lesser quality than yours) sound better with LPs than with CDs? I doubt the speakers can tell when I am playing an LP rather than a CD so it probably reproduces everything in its range of ability.
The specific error of your statements is that you are wrong about the mediums ability to reproduce the deepest bass. As I mentioned, I have a CD player, an SACD player and a turntable. Each of them retails for about $3500, so they should be fairly equal in quality (one would think). Neither of them are junk anyway. Neither CD nor SACD will play bass as deep as the Sota/Rega/Benz combination.
Do you think that result will change with different speakers? It's the source, not the speakers that determine the signal arriving at the drivers.
I have a hard time beleiving that your TT doesn't sound better than the Sony 333! Am I to beleive that your CD player reproduces deeper bass? I doubt it! Then again I have never heard your system. |
Nrchy, you have a very fine system, but your speakers don't do deep bass. My comments about the merits of digital bass are from listening to a system capable of producing deep bass. Rather than talking in vague generalities, please point out a specific statement where I am in error. |
Pbb:
I do believe that 500 pound canaries hear down to 7hz, but as an offset they have to wash themselves with a rag on a stick.
There are no free rides. |
Leaving aside the theoretical outer limits of vinyl's frequency range as proposed by TWL, which are one part wishful thinking to two parts religious belief, I would venture to say that there is enough low frequency information on most, if not all lps, to make having a speaker system with good deep bass response worth your while. Check out a recent thread where the issue of sacrificing deep bass response for perceived benefits elsewhere (notably the mid-range) was discussed. IMHO you can have speakers with both at very decent prices, you just don't get to run with the status seekers, that's all. Keep Canada green, buy Canadian speakers! |
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions you guys! I guess my main reason for asking was to see if my next speaker purchase would need quality deep bass or if I could get away with spending the same $$ on more quality midrange and treble in a quality mini-monitor instead of a gigantic floorstander with 10" woofers. Also, I do think that I have a mismatch at my cartridge/headshell interface. I have a Stanton CS100 MM and Moerch UP4(green dot) unipivot on a Merrill KT-1 TT. I may need a new armtube/cartridge combo with the correct weight/compliance matching. |
Pbb, the point of the frequency response was not whether we are hearing the 7Hz or not, but that it is possible with LP records. The point being that a properly made LP record is not bass limited as the thread poster surmised. The information is culled from the website of a record mastering company named RTI, and is available for all to see. Whether any individual system using LPs is experiencing such bass response is related to the equipment in the system, and the quality of the record being played. |
Nismo:
Forgot to mention that I also use record weights on my TT's (they improve/define bass).
I made them myself by Blue Tacking a Mapleshade brass cone (point up) to the top of a 45 rpm adapter (any symetrical non-magnetic weight should do in place of the cone, just don't go too heavy). This is then placed on top of the LP @ the spindle.
Suppose that I will try some commercial weights eventually as I have found them to be effective on my TT's (don't think that they work on all TT's though, so it's better to experiment, on the cheap, as I have). |
Euh, boy. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story. The analog LP is a perfect source. Nothing can touch it. Every recording available is a flat, clean, noise-free pressing, does not deteriorate with age and does faithfully reproduce 7hz (to 25Khz, an upper range tested by human ears no doubt) or, as someone else put it, an unbelievable amount of bass. The other way of reproducing music is a conspiracy from hateful, deaf, nasty, large corporations only thinking of themselves and out to rid the world of the only natural source of high definition sound reproduction: the non-compromised analog lp. There is not one aspect of the other way of doing things that is remotely close to the vinyl lp. You name it: bass, treble, mid-range, definition, resolution, noise, dynamic range etc. And if one number should ever be tested properly (which is an impossibility, as you know) and come out better, well it simply is too high (or low, depends) and anything more (or less, depends) you don't need and detracts from a musical presentation. Now if anyone hss actually believable data on this, let's hear it. The fear induced by the original poster is that he is trying to find fault with the analog lp and the bass thing is just the thin edge of the wedge. Better stop this dead in its tracks and come out with answers that have no relationship with the real world. When is the last time you heard 7Hz through your speakers from an lp, or anything else for that matter? |
Nismo:
Try listing you complete system.
If you are experiencing a lack of bass from your TT (with a variety of source material) then something is probably mis-matched or a poor performer.
Even with small monitors (granted that they do not have a steep roll off in the LF's) you should "on a whole" be getting better bass response from your LP's.
I use old Thorens TT's (also have a TD165 -w- the stock arm that is not listed with my system) and they perform quite well in the LF's when set up properly with the right cartridge. The best bass comes from a 20 year old Ortofon cartridge (F15-EII), not the Grado Silver.
Considering that I am getting good results from cheap/cheap/cheap battery powered phono preamps and budget TT's/cartridges I think that you need to take a closer look @ your setup.
You could first try shimming up your TT mat which will affect vertical tracking angle (VTA). Cut a round (or rounds) of felt (you can usually pick up squares of it for $1 @ most fabric shops) and place it on top of your existing mat. This will lower the tail end of the cartridge and increase bass response. I only have three cartridges on hand, but all of them perform better when the tail end drags a bit lower than what the manufacturer specifies, so this may be a common occurance.
If this works then look to see if your tonearm has a VTA adjustment. I set my arm's VTA for the thickest LP's that I have and then use a shim mat when playing thinner stock.
Hopefully it will be something as simple as this. |
I have yet to own a CDP with bass that even begins to approach the bass produced by vinyl. I have an SACD player too and it's still not even close. I'm not sure where some of these comments about the merit of digital bass originate?!? Everything about the design is flawed. It's undersampled, under-clocked, and poorly transfered. |
My Linn LP12 SME 309 and Shure V15 transmit lots of bass ! Its actually quite unbelievable how much bass and its clear and well defined too. I like to get the Led out. If Lps didn't rock I would not be spending every waking moment searching for more LPs !(Just kidding about the last comment, just don't ask my wife) |
As stated above, there's no question that vinyl can go quite low, but deep bass is one of the few areas, maybe the only area, where Redbook standard CDs can actually exceed the performance of well pressed vinyl. Very deep bass on vinyl is constrained by the physical limits of the groove width. Loud music requires wide grooves. Deep bass requires wide grooves. The problem arises when you try to have loud deep bass because you'll fairly quickly run into playback tracking problems. At 60Hz this is not an issue and I believe it only becomes serious once you start to get below 40Hz. There's also the issue of running time per side of vinyl. Large amounts of deep bass cuts down the running time available per side. As a practical matter it is very rare for mastering engineers to purposely press vinyl with sub-30Hz info. Also deep bass on vinyl is always (100% of the time) mixed mono. Redbook CDs can have true channel independence down to any frequency. |
I wonder if you are refering to the RIAA curve? It was learned a long time ago that low frequency signals require a lot more space on LPs than do higher frequencies. For that reason the curve was introduced. Any reasonable phono stage is going to replace the LF that is reduced in the pressing.
TWL is exactly right is his comments. LPs contain more bass than CDs are capable of holding due to the terrible design flaws incorporated when building the originals. That is one of the reason new formats like SACD and DVD-A are coming out. The manufacturers are trying to make machines which are capable of reproducing sound as well as a *basic* turntable. Digital has a long way to go to get there. They will probably never match the sound quality of better turntables!
The signal is there in vinyl, you just have to be able to retrieve it! |
IMO, as usual, the vast majority of mass-market LP's contain truncated or highly compressed bass. Especially as one moves towards the inner grooves; especially the innermost track. Bass equals groove excursion, and that equals expending vinyl floor space... Having said that, in my limited experience w/ CD's, there doesn't appear anything magical about bass on CD's.
I've just run a low end test w/ the Rives test CD/Radio Shack meter, and believe me, the room structure is the final factor in bass response. Vinyl is capable of some *very nice bass, but the room acoustics are what makes or breaks the situation... |
I'm not sure where audiophiles got the impression that LP's don't contain low frequencies, but Twl's comment is on the money. I have some LP recordings of pipe organs which have frequencies that reach as low as my pair of Vandy 2Wq's can reproduce, which certainly means down to the 20-Hz range. I have also read liner notes on several of the Telarc LP's that I own that state there are frequencies down to 16 Hz.
Having said all this, that does not necessarily mean that a given person's analog system will be able to accurately reproduce frequencies down to the 20-Hz range. The turntable itself must be rock solid and well isolated from acoustic vibration; and the tonearm/cartridge combination must be able to accurately track the wide, low-frequency undulations of the LP's grooves. Extreme low frequencies require very wide groove on the LP, and this is a severe test of tracking ability. |
As usual,Tom is correct.
There are so many misconceptions about analog it isnt funny.
Try analog,see for yourself! |
According to the article by Kevin Gray at RTI mastering, the LP record is capable of frequency response of 7Hz - 25kHz, with a dynamic range exceeding 75db.
How much more do you want?
If it is not coming out of your speakers, it is the speaker's problem. Or maybe you have a low frequency rumble filter that is cutting into your bass response area.
In any case, if you want to hear deep bass, your records are not holding you back, and will give any speaker all it can reproduce. |
