How may a simple "Power Cable" change, improve an audio system?
How? How can just a power cable change improve the sound of ANYTHING? Damned if I know. I have my own theories. But as of right now they are very simply just that, "Theories". And I am a skeptic on this, "At least to a point". Yes, I believe that; A new, shiny power cable, simply designed to spec. "According to the NEC". And with basic shielding, twist and good terminations along with appropriate insulation "should" in my mind sound better than the ratty old power cable that came with "whatever component". But that's not always the case in my experience. Sometimes the new power cable seems to make no difference at all. And beyond that? I simply know that it "can" be an improvement. I do understand that many here believe that anything to do with, "High-end Power Cabling" is just, "Snake Oil" for sale. I used to think the same. But things like this that I am about to report to you just keep happening to me.... Last Saturday at 7:00pm I was at the "Capital Audiofest" in Washington D.C. And that evening there had been arranged a bit of music "Live", for those of us that were still there at 9:00pm (I "think", it had been a long day).. I happened to walk in early as the band was just doodling around after just setting up for the gig. They sounded really good and I decided to just hang-out until they played. as the band was going through the set-up and about fifteen of us on-lookers were just talking amongst ourselves between practice songs. A fellow whom I do not know stuck his "head" in the room and yelled someone's name. The bands leader stopped and looked around. The "Head", said; "Plug your amp in with this and it will sound better"! The "Head", then disappeared as quickly at it had appeared, never to be seen again!, "By me at least". There were a few scoff's that I heard. A few chuckles about a power cable, "Making an amp sound better"!? Then the band leader shrugged his shoulders. He laughed a bit too as he remarked and joked, "Well ok then, A power cable that will make my amp sound better huh"!? He then bent and swapped out the old cable for the "New" one. The band leader then played what sounded like the beginning of a song for about 5 seconds. He stopped, "With a bewildered look on his face and looked around as if confused" and then began playing again. After another ten seconds or so he stopped playing again. He looked around the room "Again", with a questioning look on his face. In fact I noticed several people with odd looks. A couple of them looked simply, "Dumbstruck". A few others had smiles. But honestly? The bandmates looked mainly confused! Then everyone seemed to chime in at once. "Sounds great!", "Sounds better", I heard among other comments but all seemed positive. And I have to admit, there was a difference. To me? Not a small or slight difference. A absolutely HUGE difference! Both more open and dynamic it had sounded. Larger and more alive, with more detail too! And I have to say, as I "was" sitting right there in the second row about twenty feet from his amp. NOTHING had been changed except for the cable, A two second cable change on the rear of the amp. That was all! The band seemed to be having difficulty with this. For about five seconds! Then someone tried to basically tell them that "Yes, The power cable can indeed make you sound better". Just as the, "Head", had said! And the band played on! Has anyone else had a similar experience? Even I was very surprised that the small, "Maybe a 10 watt amp with a ten inch driver". Could have such a major improvement with JUST a power cable change. I never did find out what the power cable make or model was but I will. I talked to the band leader dude and offered to send him a IEC inlet of good quality as he promised me he would swap that out on his amp and let me know of any differences there "If any". Thanks in advance for all whom respond!
Unfortunately the "head" has never replied to the email he provided to me for further correspondence. I did go ahead and purchase two different models from "Pangea" but neither cable impressed me much. I will say after getting a bit frustrated one evening..... I ordered several from different companies. Far and away the best I have currently found wasn't that expensive as far as these things go at $165 from an Amazon vendor. That cable was the "Shunyata Research" ,"Venom" power cable. Most of the power cabling I purchased is now used around the home for my printers, computers and what-not as I heard either no difference or the change it brought too miniscule to really matter. "Change is not always good"! I will say that I did also try a Shunyata Venom USB, ($90, Amazon), and liked that over the Pangea USB cable I had been using for my DAC. "The one which separates the power and signal at about $150". Wireworld......I had high expectations. But all of their offerings? Left me simply wondering how they have gotten good reviews from anyone, "I feel this way about "Audioquest" cabling as well. I ordered several power, USB and RCA interconnects from Wireworld. I ordered at first their "Second Tier" products. Then their "Flagship" line. Not impressed at all. I have some older "Moon Audio" power cables which I do like also. I believe the fellow there whom developed them worked for a time with an old "Cabling Legend" or so I have heard and builds an interesting mix of cabling with varied properties. Of course everything I buy is going up against what I design and build. But at this time I really am only happy with my speaker cabling and RCA interconnects. Some I don't work with like USB or haven't had much luck with like XLR. "And I have spent a ton of time and money on those XLR's"!! Someday........... Hopefully AXPONA and other audio shows will be up and running again soon and I'll find that elusive, disembodied "Head"......And find that damned cable! And too bad also that I made a "kit" up to send him for free. He plays the "Strat". I have a kit for those. Including a gold plated RCA angled inlet, made specifically for the Strat with 12Awg silver wiring harness plus 1/4 RCA cable and patch cords. Just in case anyone knows of the "Anacostia Blues band" and their lead singer/guitar player. "I think that was their name". They said they had "Disbanded" a few years ago but got together again just for this show. Great band!
It can make a change in your feelings... Let's say you was kind enough to pay for a power cable US $ 1,000.- That's a lot of money for a power cable. US $ 5,000.- is even more. Let's stay with the $ 1,000.- cable. So you paid for it, connected it and: Nothing changed. The sales guy will claim that it needs a burn in of 500 hours min. You might claim, to avoid the cognitive dissonance that after some time it sounds better (as if you would remember a sound you have hurd 4 weeks ago and tell the minutes of variation (if any). But if you really would like to gave only the feeling, without the burn in BS, you can take US $ 1,000.- drop it in the toilet and splash it down the drain. The feeling will be identical. Don't flash the cable, it may club your toilet!
@jollygreenaudiophile2 Did you ever manage to discover the brand and model of the power cable the "Head" appearing in the room gave the band?
@williewonka so I guess it's you I have to thank for the helix shaped connections I put inside my amplifier? I just used cat 5 solid cable to jumper from the back of my XLR inputs to the solder joints in my DB25 output, to pass signal to the outside of my power amp. Then two resistors and a 1:1 tranformer to the RCA output to my sub. I'd love to discuss rewiring my input stage to the internal PCBs in my amplifier, if you don't mind?
Oh, and williewonka, I use a multimeter regularly at work, and I do find a bit of clamping force of the terminals to the conductors give me a better reading, the meter isn't changing values, it becomes stable. This tends to make me believe that clamping of the conductor, as in mechanical connections absolutely make a difference.
Please excuse my absence from this thread. I kind of thought a bit of time to let it, "Percolate", (If you will), -would be nice. Of course this lets my own thoughts rattle around the in, Ye 'ole noggin, as well.. By the way, These "Silver Net" connectors for XLR, in particular are my current favorite XLR connector. I fell in love with them a few years ago. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32986949864.html I experimented a bit using these for speaker cabling actually. From an active crossover network to amp. Then to speaker. This in a few speaker "System", designs. And with excellent results. The problem with XLR is always the "Means of termination". I am sick of "Solder" regardless of the materials used. It is always a substandard termination and always tests-out as such.
Steve-"Willie"- Abrupt transients in a
waveform. "And I almost, Plagiarized,a bit here", But this is a part from a "DSP.com" paper with an edit by myself. A reliable transient detector is needed. This
can raise deep questions regarding what a transient really is; for
example, not everyone will notice every transient as a transient, and
so perceptual modeling gets involved. "Both intellectually defined after physically experiencing it. AND by utilizing instrumentation to seek, find and analyze as well. But when using mechanical means only? Missing a transient, e.g., in a
ride-cymbal analysis, can create highly audible artifacts and you "may", miss the point entirely. But it's hard to adapt to using both ways with the transients at once. I add this because this seems to be one of the "Holy Grail" for cabling to define first and then to fully address as "Part" of a cabling solution. The, "Abrupt Transient Detector", I need one. But not just coding. Any Idea's?
FOR THE RECORD: as stated in responses to your previous "mis-informed posts" - I CAN confirm that the Neutrik XLR plugs made specifically for KLE Innovations are not simply brass base with nickel plating. - But I have been asked not to divulge the materials - so it remains "a mystery" until such a time when KLE Innovations decides to disclose it.
So as usual - your are misinformed OR you simply like to "get your jollies" by continueing to spread FUD - i.e. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, about KLE Innovations products as you have done in the past.
Caelin Gabriel, Garth Powell and
Hans M. Strassner are veterans in the industry and very knowledgeable. It's better to learn from them instead of some naysayers from an audio forum who's only contribution is to say "why oh why... that's the question" to look like an philosophical audio guru. I want to keep learning from a lot of people. We still don't know everything. Every company has some (biased) information and a lot is trial and error to find out what works in your system. But I think these people are on the right track to explain why.
@williewonka So you think silver-plating over copper, pure silver is good and pure copper too. Well that is good. Now I ask you as I ask you before why your favorite KLEI use Neutrik XLRs for new cable and these are brass based with nickel. You say before these are good and specially designed for KLEI - what is truth?
Deciding how much to spend on cables based on the total outlay for ones system is NOT a wise, or more importantly, an effective approach to buying cables. But everyone has to start somewhere and electing to spend a little more on cables based on system cost "should" get better performance than simply using the cables included with components.
Given that people tend to prefer an easy answer to a question, rather than delve into the many theories & facts floating around out there on the web, the 1:6 ratio is that easy answer. But it has no real merit
I do believe that Capacitance, but more importantly, the dielectric material used for insulation (which effects capacitance), plays a far greater role in cable performance than most people believe.
E.G. - I recently have been trying wires with different type of insulation - I have found cotton/oil insulation (like that found on Duelund wire) is superior to teflon - But the most stunning improvements of the many permutations I have tried, were achieved by using wooden beads as the insulator on the signal wire of my Helix interconnects.
Given that the dielectric constant of soft wood is around 1.5, compared to Teflon's 2.1 - and based on my own observations of the exact same cable performing significantly better with the wooden beads, compared to Teflon insulation - I now believe that capacitance can be used as an indicator of cable performance. Not from a tonal perspective, but more from the perspective f the clarity and dynamics aspects.
Unfortunately, manufacturers have a tendency to omit many electrical attributes that pertain to their cables - and I do not understand why - perhaps they know something
I do believe Cable Geometry also plays a significant role in cable performance - again this is due to my own observations while implementing different geometries with great success, such as tight twisted pairs, braiding, and the most successful - a HELIX design that winds the neutral wire around the signal wire.
I hate to judge too harshly but it appears self-knowledge is no real advantage to audiophiles who won’t listen. As they say in the court system, a defendant who represents himself has a fool for a client. Remember the Little Train that Could, “I think I can, I think I can, I think I can!” 🚂 Toot, toot! I like to see certain audiophiles “lock themselves into their story” as the homicide detectives say. Don’t just do something, stand there!
Elizabeth, You've named many of my concerns on this issue. Yes, many have worked on this but the mere fact that I began this thread means, "At least to me". That the work is indeed not completed. And simply because many may now produce cabling which at least "Partially" addresses the issues therein but cannot, "Yes, I did mean (Cannot), instead of Will not". - Cannot explain in full the how and why of the results. Meaning that it is so poorly understood that at this time we are guessing and hoping WAY more than ever doing any true engineering in the design phase of production. "Whether DIY or Proffessionally"! As far as re-hashing old arguments? Life is too short so please "Everyone", do not bring them here!
And to anyone thinking I am just trying to; "Build a better mouse trap". AND, to anyone with the thought that "Really", "We know everything already, just go look it up. So do not waste any more of our time". A quarter of a century ago I was given a proposal to look over. "By the way, All of this is in the public domain including pics". They were finalizing the plans to redo the entire trunk power system in NYC. And the industry standard, "Which is STILL the same today!" Was basically to bury groupings of 1000KCmill, (1 Inch thick), solid/stranded copper calculated for the requisite load per the NEC and Mr. Ohm's "Law". Why was I looking it over? I was sent the proposal and one of the bids. Just the one bid. Because Instead of using 1000kcmil copper, "The smallest of runs possible would contain a minimum of 25 pieces of the "1 inch thick", insulated copper cables". There was a bid which would instead "On those small runs and then scale up from there", Use five, "5", flat ribbons. Each approx. 5/8 inch wide and 1/16 inch thick! And the cost of the entire installation, "Including all materials and labor", was less than that of simply the "material" cost of the copper for the standard installation involving the standard copper cabling! And 'No", There were NO special installation requirements involved "With the exception of security". Again; All of this? Is in the public domain. All I can say is, The math worked, And that installation was completed.
So, in my mind that is enough to resolve the understanding that, "We", know just enough to get ourselves in trouble when it comes to "Lectric". Hee hee, And Jeff? Good start with those three. But you may be missing ….something? Now, To that "Chocalatier", "Willie", I agree with nearly everything you've said. I have always believed that the larger AWG are indeed better for most applications, "Not-withstanding the point at which a cables capacitance becomes an issue." But there are times when that doesn't seem to be the best choice. Like the 1:6 ratio used for interconnects. And that ratio is still used regardless of shielding or insulation type, density or effectiveness and etc.". And not because someone "Forgot" to add that variable/s into the mix. But I do not know "Why". And until I do...…..
Jolly - here are some of the basic technical aspects that produces a power cable that outperforms more basic power cables
The connector... - I prefer silver plated copper over every other type of plating because the silver is the best conductor and silver plate can be applied directly to the copper. Other plating materials do not conduct as well as silver and they nearly always requires a different "substrate" plating material for the finished plating metal to achieve a solid plating finish
- Good IEC connectors grip better and provide a better mechanical connection. Good quality mains connectors have very flat pins, which fit exceptionally well in a high quality outlet
The "quality wire"... - OFC, Continuous cast copper, silver plated copper will always outperform the lower grade copper in "standard" type power cables WRT dynamics. - thicker gauge conductors are "generally" better than thinner gauge - because they have less resistance and higher current handling capacity
Cable geometry... - Advanced cable geometries Like braiding, ribbon and Helix geometries help reduce/eliminate the noise "generated" within a standard geometry power cable and as a result allow the peek power demands made by the amp to be accommodated more readily and with less distortion - resulting in faster dynamics and better clarity - having a larger gauge neutral conductor actually improves cable performance and sometimes result in more clarity and larger image - but this depends on the design of the amp - some amp designs do not respond well to quality power cables, but most Audiophile quality amps will achieve significant improvements
The type of insulation used on each conductor makes a considerable difference to cable performance - e.g. Teflon is better than PVC - a cable has capacitance and more capacitance a cables generates more noise, but this also depends on cable geometry.
Those are just a few aspects of cable design. - they apply to ALL cables not just power cables
I have heard improvements in systems ranging from a $350 Mini System, up to a $50k Ayre system all due to quality power cables
If you are not hearing any difference it could be due to the many other factors that should be dealt with long before pursuing a better power cable, simply because you will not hear any benefits if the rest of your system and room treatments are not the best they can be.
CABLE GEOMETRY: It may seem like a BIG BOTTLE of snake oil to some, but over the last 5 years, a handful of DIYers have co-developed some different "approachs" WRT cable geometry and achieved significant benefits in sound quality
As to WHY? - think about the impacts to the circuit - when a large transient signal is encountered the power supply in the amp must have the "capacity" to fulfill that transient otherwise there is a slight voltage drop and the performance of the amp is degraded (i.e. distorted), so clarity is impacted - A better quality power cable will reduce the amount of degradation because it is faster to respond to demands from the amps power supply - Since there are two amps in a stereo system, we assume that both amps suffer the same degradation, but they do not - this results in image and spatial degradations.
Now think about noise in the power cable - yes the 50/60Hz power supply is rectified to a DC current, but noise from the cable is still present - That noise gets into the DC supply - any noise in the DC supply will degrade amplifier performance (distortion)
These are just a few aspects of the impact of using power cables not really designed for audio use.
Historically, audiophiles have spend large sums of money on amps with huge power supplies that can better deal with transient demands, but today, power cables can augment the performance of budget audio systems to very high levels of audio quality
If you have a question - then ask away.
But if you feel this is all SNAKE OIL, then I will simply leave you to your opinion
I really like the guy’s comment in the Ansuz video, and I paraphrase here, “the current going to the speakers is a function of the speaker cables and the power cord. The audio signal is on both sides of the amplifier.” I could not have said it any better.
And I would like you to understand that before posting the above statement I decided to do a little research. "Just in case this fellow was in fact honest and diligently working towards a goal in developing an actual theory based on real science or at least facts gained through trial and error. to form the postulate." I "Would NOT", ever want to dissuade one from such as that. And, "So what?", if Mr. Eichmann doesn't have a PHD. from MIT, or even an "Accredited", High school diploma? And I care even less for titles! If I can find even an inkling of fact or even get just a "Warm and Fuzzy" whilst looking I would have deleted the entire post. And besides, I absolutely hate bad-mouthing people. "Especially when they are not here to defend", But after a few hours on-line and a phone call, "Down under"? I did not edit the post at ALL! And I wanted to. But like I said; "This guy", IS a big part of the problem. And part of why I began this thread to begin with. Sorry but I HAD to vent a bit too.
Yping? There are several reasons why I believe Aussie 'Her "Eichmann", Is simply, "Blowing hot air" in that paper...… . The way he talks of the "Movement of electrons"? It sounds as if he is attributing his "Architecture", that they make or use to "Plasma Theory" which I think you'll agree is....um, "Laughable". It's a sales pitch basically. And his explanation of the variance of the voltage? It does not apply "At all". But I really dig the way he wrote it as if it's just another run of the mill "Known Quantity" to "Him"! Funny the way he put those simple circuits on display but NO math nor even a mention of any, to back anything up...… Don't you think? I can't buy that horse...."I looked at it's teeth". I am looking for answers. Hee hee, and I am sure I always will be. But "He" doesn't have any of them. That fellow "And others like him", are a BIG part of the problem with area's such as this, which are not well understood. They "IMHO", are why so many disbelieve that these types of "things" actually do work,
I do not yet know the "mystery" cables info. But I "should" know soon. As I am about to email the "Band Leader". I actually hope to get him to chime in but have no info on him except the name, band name, and his email. We were on the first floor near the larger expo accommodations and "think" that the "Head" was most likely from a nearby system. There were a few fellows there from the "DC Audio Group". A local club that I happened to join just before the show that evening and may ask them if needed this weekend. I did "Intend" to ask after the cable once the show closed but It had been a looooong day for me and I simply forgot. I actually make cables and am familiar with many but, not these. I did notice that the terminations looked vaguely similar to a "Pangea" type. As it was a fairly small, "factory molded", and square'ish, type of termination on the male end. I did notice that as they look much different from what I use. So I shall add info as I get it. I didn't mean to mislead anyone to the fact that I in fact began learning of this type of "Cabling",gear and tweaks thereof in the "Way, way, back of 1978". Playing with my fathers homebuilt kit, "tube amp" and a bootlegged pair of Bose 901's (Complete with a hand etched DSP card!). Which "He" thought were the "Cat's Pajama's". I on the other hand always thought his "901's" had to of just been "Flawed" somehow. And fatally at that. Cables helped a little but I missed the old "Polk SDA's"!
@jollygreenaudiophile2, I've been a believer in power cords and interconnects making a difference since 1986. Out of curiosity, what was the power cord that was plugged into the amp?
But Mr. Carbon, "Maybe", you should read-through a few times what you wrote above, And you demonstrate my reason for beginning this thread exquisitely. You state (both) that, "It's all B.S.". AND, "The ONLY thing that matters is how they sound". Conflicting statements. Someone else also say's, "Above" That it, "Worked for you". No, It worked for EVERYONE that was there. And not a "Nuance", nor a "Minor change" either. The volume knob was not "Bumped" as one stated. "The IEC inlet was on the rear of the amp", where "He" was as he changed it and played. This was also neither "Inductance, RF filtering or any (Line noise), which had disappeared". As there was none apparent beforehand. And "No", Not magic either. And just to say, "Many", things are poorly understood. Most "Things" in fact are "Poorly", understood by we humans. Yet I do not simply "Ignore" things I do not understand, And I do not believe that you do either! And one more thing that I do not understand? I do not understand the apparent anger of some whom do not believe a "Power Cable" can make a difference in the quality of sound. Are you mad at the cable? Or me? Why?
Old news. How old? I was introduced to this back in 1990.
For those who are bad at math, we're only about a month or two shy of that being 30 years ago.
Okay. So now here's the thing- the question of WHY, at least as it relates to what to look for, construction, wire gauge, or any of that, is a colossal waste of time. The differences are there, as everyone who bothers to compare can prove to themselves quickly and easily enough.
What I cannot for the life of me understand though is why everyone gets so hung up on WHY?!?! Why matters only if you're trying to build one. Or if the theory is so well established as to be useful.
This simply is not the case with wire. The minute we begin to talk about subtle audible refinements of attack, decay, tone, harmonics, extension, imaging, etc all our conventional standards of measurement go right out the window. They are irrelevant. Could hardly matter less.
Insulators, conductors, geometry, purity, a million others, on and on it goes, over the 30+ years every silly thing you can imagine and a lot more you can't, they have all been touted as the reason why the Bombastic Binford 2000 power cord is so much better than last years Symphonic Crescendo 800. Its all BS.
Don't misunderstand me. Not saying there's no reason. There's always reasons. Saying the reasons given are so poorly understood you might as well just ignore them.
What does matter, the ONLY thing that matters, is how they sound.
You should have heard the system in the Robyatt room. He was featuring cables and cords from Finley Audio (www.Finleyaudio.com). Again, proof that they make a difference. An NO I am not affiliated with them but did order a phono cable.
Sounds more like the correction of a loose connection somewhere.
Or the power of suggestion.
What would have happened if the head had said "This will definitely make your sound worse?"
Perhaps the volume was inadvertently increased at the same time.
Perhaps the 10 watt amp stock cable was badly frayed inside?
If none of the above are true then maybe, just maybe, the new power cable is somehow able to 'magically' (what other explanation is there?) transform the sound of a entry level PA system.
I too was once a disbeliever. 3 things come to mind. First is lowering the inductance. The second would be to filter out electrical noise you don't is there. The third is to eliminate RF.
Yes, all the power cords and cables make a difference in a system. I've experienced this, so I know that for a fact. I may not be able to explain why, but I know what I've heard. This is the reason why audiophiles upgrade cables to improve the sound.
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