My suggestion is to follow Paul's suggestion.
Sincerely, I remain |
with all due respect paulwp, i strongly disagree that the CDP is more significant than the amp. in my experience, just the opposite is true for EVERY system i've ever heard. i would never scrimp on the amp to spend more on a CDP.
there are so few audible diffences among CDP's these days that you need a very high resolution system just to hear them. and with an inferior amp, there's NO WAY the CDP is going to matter.
note: i realize that a $20k linn sounds a lot better than a $50 portable...my comments above refer to decent CD players below $2k. |
Well, S2k, if it sounded like I think the cdp is more significant than the amp, then I disagree with me too. Biggest change in sound in my system was when I went from a midfi receiver to a hifi amp. I certainly wouldnt recommend getting an inferior amp. It's just that there are good amps that don't cost a lot of money, like the Bryston 3bST or the Muse 100 and 160. Lots of others, as well as some integrateds that cost even less and I wouldnt consider them inferior.
I do think, however, that there are audible differences in cd players under $2k, and from my pov, it's easier to find an acceptable amp than it is to find an acceptable cd player.
That was another thread, which component is more important, with some people saying speakers, others source, some preamps and a few amps.
This is starting to sound like the choice between "scrimp" and "skimp" - doesn't make a lot of difference. |
on a SonyES CD player. Don't buy in this BS about DAC's and
spending money on the source. Lemme put it this way. Even a tin-ear can hear the difference between two different speakers, but it requires a golden-ear to supposedly hear differences between good CD players. Retail, my system is around $25K. Of this I have $8k on speakers, $9.5 K on a digital front end, and $7.5 K on amplification. If I had to do it again, I would probably spend $15K on speakers, $10 K on amplification, and probably $2K on the source. So you decide what I think is important |
i totally agree with the last post. i defy anyone to conduct a true DBX test for comparably decent CD players. i am not holding my breath.
regardless, there's no question that differences among speakers, amps and preamps are MUCH easier to hear than those among comparable CDPs.
-s2k |
S2k- didn't you just say in another thread that you regret selling your meridian 508.24? Whyever for if you can't tell the difference?
About the Sony ES cd players, I couldn't disagree more. Go buy the Cambridge, a NAD, a Phillips, Rotel, Denon, just about anything else. The Xa7ES was fine and used is a good buy, and I even have a very old 508ES that was pretty smooth, but at $500 you're talking XA20ES. I had one for a short while. Maybe it was defective, but it sounded off-pitch, like a 33 1/3 rpm lp spinning at 34 rpm. Very lively and exciting - but not accurate. I don't know how you get a cd player to do that - those guys at Sony are wizards.
Paul |
paul: i said "comparable CDPs", meaning within a certain price range. as i also said, i believe that the differences among CDPs under 2k are very difficult to detect unless you have very high resultion stuff. this thread concerns a system with a total value of $5k. while not impossible, it is unlikely that a $5k system will have the resolution for the CDP to matter very much. |
S2K: I know of a couple of hardcore objectivist types who claim to have heard differences among CD players in blind tests. However, they would say that the differences are subtle indeed, when they are there at all. There certainly isn't the variation in digital that there was on the analog side (leaving aside companies that intentionally voice their products, for whatever reason). |
"unlikely that a $5k system will have the resolution for the cdp to matter very much" - wow, are you ever a high end marketer's dream.
I think you would get lots of disagreement over that statement. Put Harbeth speakers in the mix along with a good integrated amplifier or used pre and basic, and you could tell the difference between, e.g., a $1,000 retail Denon and a Sony (which are really very close).
With a $550 real world price NAD integrated and $2200 Harbeth Compact 7 speakers, I would pair a $2000 used meridian 508.24, and believe me, you could tell the difference, even with Radio Shack interconnects and zip cord.
In fact, Kraz, if you're still around, that's the system I'd recommend. (Actually if you email me, I'll tell you where to get better interconnects in L.A., for cheap - I wouldnt use the Radio Shack) |
paul: not to belabor this point but you are not still not getting it: the benefits of spending $2k versus $500 on a cdp are INSIGNIFICANT, especially when paired with a $550 integrated amp. you'd get MUCH better bang-for-the-buck by spending that extra $1500 on better speakers or better amplification. it is ridiculously easy to tell one speaker pair from another or one amp from another. in comparison, the differences among CDPs are laughable. we should just agree to disagree because you won't convice me.
regards,
s2k |
I'm not trying to convince you S2k, just trying to help the author of this thread understand the issues so he can decide for himself. We apparently agree that speakers are very important - more important than cdps. We also agree that amps are important. Where we disagree is on the amount of $ it takes to get a good amp, secondly, on the benefit of spending more $ on cd players, and finally, on the amount of $ it takes to come up with a system that is capable of revealing subtle differences between components.
I think to say "you are still not getting it" is a bit rude. You may have more money than I have, but I doubt that you have any years on me. It is certainly true, however, that I dont "get" those two seemingly contradictory statements -"the benefits of spending $2k versus $500 on a cdp are insignificant" versus you regret selling your meridian 508 ($3995 last list but used value now $2k or so - I paid $2200 for a demo unit). I can't undertand why you regret selling it if you can replace it for $500. - But that's ok, you don't need to explain, I don't need to know.
We also disagree on the benefit of spending more than about $2200 on speakers. Kraz asked above about diminishing returns, and that's where it kicks in for me, the cost of Harbeth Compact 7's or Spendor 1/2's. I don't think you get "better" speakers for less than $5,000. And then, they may not be better for a small, real world, room. The Harbeth Monitor 40's are over $6,000, but need a large room.
The reason speakers are so easy to tell apart is that they are more colored, less accurate, than, say, cdps. It is easy to distinguish sonic signatures. That does not mean that the more expensive speaker is better than the cheaper one. It just means they sound different. To a lesser extent (by far) the same is true for amps.
CD players, otoh, do not have as obvious sonic signatures. Their differences are more related to quality and are more subtle. It takes an experienced ear. In fact, to the vast majority of music lovers, who are not audiophiles of course, bits are bits and one cd player is as good as the next. Perfect sound after all. |
Krazeeyk
Building your system is an art form. You can be an expressionist or you can paint by numbers.
My point is to go for that special kind of sound that excites you, puts a grin on your face all day so you can't wait to come home to it to listen at night. Listen to a lot of different speakers and buy the ones that you fall in love with. Within you budget of course. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you have to buy it all at once.
I started out last year not knowing anything and searching for speakers and I was only willing to spend $500.00. Not surprisingly I couldn't find anything I liked for that amount. Then I started pricing components and figured I would spend about $5000.00. It took me 4 months and about 30 auditions but I finally found my love. I got Thiel CS2.3, Bryston 4B-ST and BP 25. Not because they are good value but because they reproduce music the way I want to hear it. I have since doubled my investment with more still to go, of course. I spent alot more than I originally intended but I get more enjoyment from it than I ever imagined and that is what it is all about.
I wouldn't have Krell, Mark Levinson, Linn, JM Lab Utopia or even Thiel CS7.2. Not because they aren't good
(they are) or because they are more expensive than what I have but because they don't have the sound I am looking for. Remember we are artists. Don't make the mistake of thinking you are missing out because you don't have the high-dollar stuff. If you had it you might not like the sound anyway.
Focus on "the sound" you want. Buy speakers you will want to keep and build your system upon that. Purchase additional components as you find them and as your budget allows and always enjoy the journey. |
Jazzdude, how did you go about having 30 auditions. Did you buy these prospective components and test them out in your sound room? I understand your point about not having to buy everything at once, but I have an empty plate. I have no components to start out with. So everything will sound "new" and "unfamiliar" to me. Which makes it harder to distinguish how a new component has affected the sound of my system. Guess I just got to start somewhere right?
Thanks |
Krazeeyk
Yes you have to start somewhere. You have to know where you are going too. Decide on good material to audition with. Use the same material everywhere. Listen critically for the aspects of the music that are important to you. Take notes while you are auditioning. Carry an SPL meter with you if you want. Once you have found speakers that you like audition them again with different amps to confirm the sound or note the differences. Your components will sound different in your room than they do at the dealer.
As you build out your system you will probably think they sound better. That is for a couple of reasons. First a lot of dealer rooms have more acoustic problems then your room will. Second you are building your system, you have control, you are the artist. Focus on that positive emotional response. If you are auditioning a component and you can't stop smiling, then ask yourself why. Your talking about laying down a good sum of money. The rest of your system will be built upon the sound of your speakers. Make sure the love is there. Don't lose patience in your search.
Once you get your speakers then you can audition amps at home. Your first source can be something simple like a $200-500 sony cdp or a dvd player that plays cds and you can hook up to a TV after you upgrade. Thats a good place to start because it is a plain vanilla sound. |
Krazeeyk. Here's my story in a nutshell.
Two years ago I decided to buy my first high end piece of gear because my home theater wasn't cutting it musically. I went to a local shop and bought a pair of Sonus Faber Concertinos thinking they would transform my HT front end. It didn't happen. For a year and a half I purchased all kinds of gear to make those Concertinos sound the way I wanted them to. Eventually, I ended up getting different speakers, and now six months hence I have finally settled into a system I really like.
Here's where I'm at:
Theta Pearl transport
Bel Canto DAC 1.1
Blue Circle BC21
Blue Circle BC22
ProAc Tablette 50 Sigs
NHT SW3P subwoofer
And a whole gang of cables and cords from Kimber, Cardas, Harmonic Tech, Analysis Plus, Acoustic Zen, DH Labs and Virtual Dynamics
With the exception of the Bel Canto I bought everything here used on Audiogon. Not including the cables, the gear alone was about $5000 used. I've met and dealt with a lot of great people here and listened to some cool stuff along the way. If you're open to buying used, you'll save a ton of cash.
I have no idea what the freakin' moral of the story is, but if you're like the rest of us you'll probably end up spending way more and swapping around more gear than you ever could have imagined at the start. Even though I went about this bass ackwards, I think Seandtaylor99's budget breakdown makes a lot of sense. You can get a good system for $5,000 new. But for $5,000 used you could wrangle a $8,000-$10,000 setup. "Wholly smoke Doctor Jones!!" And realize too that you will upgrade or at least have the urge to along the way.
So I guess I started with speakers first and took a crooked and winding road to where I now happily sit and enjoy my music. The End...until something new and cool comes grabs my attention. |
I post this only because I don't find this particular advice anywhere else here.
The phrase "you have to start somewhere" is very true, but it assumes later upgrades. Every audiophile I know has the same disease. Don't overlook that. If you are just starting out, you can save lots of money by doing it very smartly. I guarantee you, when you have bought what you think is the best you can get at that time with the given amount of money, sometime later (and probably shortly thereafter) you will start second guessing your choices, and get the itch to upgrade. After two or three years or so, several total system changes, and two or three times the money you initially spent, you may look at your system and say to yourself, "you know, if I had thought of my current system's components two years ago, I could have bought them with the original 5k and saved a lot of money."
You say in response to the above, "yeah, no kidding, lots of audiophiles do that; it's a process you have to go through." And I agree to a point. But my advice is to try to skip all the components in between your "starter system" and your final (is there ever one?) system. You do that by buying the best "low-hi end" components you can find used for the cheapest amount (i.e., Polk RT35i speakers, creek 4330 integrated, some monster wire, and a 200 dollar CD player, all for less than a grand). THEN, after listening to that for a good 3 months, you have a frame of reference of sound from which to compare, and most importantly a system you can home demo components on and hear a comparison. Even if you go listen to every item at all the local dealers there are far too many variables to change the sound from when you listen to it there to when you get it home. Again, you need a frame of reference to start from.
I wish someone had offered me this tpe of advice when I first began. One other tidbit; if at some point you are nearly satisfied with your system but you feel it is missing something specific (like a subwoofer, or good cables, or whatever), don't settle for something well below the quality of the rest of your system. You will just end up upgrading it anyway soon thereafter. Buy the best you can afford in line with the rest of your system.
Best of all, the whole damned process is a load of fun, which ever way you do it! Good luck. (And btw, back-issues of the Absolute Sound have reviewers' choice systems, to include their budget systems. You can get a lot of good ideas from there). |
Not bad advice, Jimmy. It would also make a great bedroom system when, (and if,) you go forward. Charlie |
It seems that Jimmy2615 has reminded us of the "one must walk before they run" side of life. |
I revamped my system incrementally, assuming a $5k budget, over two years. I had a beefy old NAD receiver, a slightly modded Rotel 855 CDP, and DIY (Boston Acoustic designer help) 2 ways from Peerless drivers. Sounded fine for years.
I tried designing a three-way, but got too frustrated, so started the hunt. Knowing the critical nature of room-loading a transducer, I decided to find the best speaker I could IN MY ROOM. Started with Paradigm Powered Monitor, then Thiel 2.3, then Ariel 7b, then JM Labs 820 (?), then B&W803N. Finally I tried the speaker I'll live with forever.
Cost me $8k wholesale. I cried when I heard them.
Dealer told me to get a cleaner amp (especially pre) to drive them. Lots of buzz for the Audio Refinement Complete Integrated at the time. I borrowed one, and was astounded at how more musical and CLEANER it was than the NAD. Not enough powerm, though. Dealer recommended Alephs with these speakers. So I found used Aleph 2s. Now I could REALLY hear the noise and grit upstream! Auditions between ADCOM GFP750 and Aleph P proved doubtless that Nelson's REAL iteration was the way to go, despite cousin Wes's lauding of the ADCOM.
So that left the front end...which was actually the hardest part. Trials of Bel Canto, Arcam 9, Audio Refinement CD, Planet proved to be less musical than my old lowly Rotel!
How could this be? I added a Neuance under the Rotel, and now was even more amazed at how a 10yr old CDP could boogie.
Yet the digititis and glare were all way too much. Yet the Bel Canto needed a dimmer up top, and the ARCAM danced with two left feet...the ARC put me to sleep.
So I stuck my friggin neck out and bought a new EMC-1 with something called a 24/192 MkII DAC at cost from a Danish dealer. My God...I'm done. Ok, I'm still screwing around with cables, and I had to buy a new tuner, after all, and make my own dedicated lines and PCs (thanks, Sean, et al).
So the $5k budget grew to about $18 by the end...for $30k retail value.
Took two years to do, and I had to learn a lot.
One mentor/dealer now flew the bricks n' mortar coop and works for Lenbrook. I remember he once whispered something like "vinyl" at the beginning. But Redbook now sounds SO good I'm selling my AR table and not even thinking about SACD, nevermind DVD-A or combi-players. And boy am I buying CDs on sale!
Thanks, guys, for all the help.
Hope this helps the threadhead.
In a nutshell: find transducers that you fall in love with while auditioning with appropriately neutral electronics.
Then match the electronics and cables to the power and spectral requirements of your system as you deem satisfying musically.
The NAD receiver and 2 ways do nice duty in the family-room HT system. But what a difference!
Good luck. |
I recently replaced my very old stereo system, and was confronted with the same issue, how to allocate limited funds among the components. I did not know much about modern stereo equipment, and had the belief that I should put most of the money in speakers, because they make the biggest difference.
I first read up on stereo equipment, and then went to a local stereo shop last fall that carried Creek, Acoustic Research, Krell, Cary, Audio Physic, Soliloquy, and California Audio Labs equipment, among other things. I listened to various combinations of equipment at various price points, trying as much as possible to compare components by listening to setups where everything was the same except for changing the one component I was evaluating. What I learned was how much difference each component can make to the sound. For example, I listened in a small room to the Audio Physic Virgo II speakers (appropriately positioned) through an entry level Creek solid state amp, and thought the speakers were of average quality. I then listened to the same speakers but with a Cary CAD-300SE amp, and my reaction was WOW. I could not believe they were the same speakers. I also had assumed that choosing a preamp would make little difference, as I figured a line stage preamp simply switches the source component that is amplified, and controls volume. I now believe differently. I listened to the setup I purchased at home with 6H30 driver tubes in the preamp, and then substituted a different type of 6922 tubes recommended by the manufacturer of the preamp. My system with the substituted tubes in the preamp went from one I found highly satisfying, to a system with reduced soundstage, and thinner more analytic sound. I made similar observations about each of the other components. That taught me that the balance of the entire system is critical. The sound coming out of the same speakers can be completely different depending on the rest of the system.
Based on my limited experience, and the very interesting and informative remarks of those with greater knowledge and experience than I, my current thinking on the subject is:
---The balance of the system, and compatibility of each of the components, is critical. If the goal is to buy a system where none of the major components will be upgraded, do not spend too much on any one component (including the speakers) at the sacrifice of the other components.
--- If the goal is to buy a system where major components will be upgraded one at a time, by spending more on a particular component, it may not be necessary to upgrade that component, and it will save money in the long run. If this is the objective, at the $5,000 price level for the system, it may make sense to spend a greater percentage of the total on speakers, depending on the particular products that are chosen.
Best regards, |
An important thing to remember is that you will
change as a listener once you own your own system.
By the end of the year you will hear things which
you don't presently hear. This maturation / learning
curve is part of the fun, but makes it very difficult
to predict the future.
For this reason I would advocate buying a well balanced
and matched system. e.g. $2k for speakers, $2k for amp&
preamp, $1k for source. I would advocate buying start-up
equipment from mainstream manufacturers. And above
all audition the components with your own ears
before you buy. |
Krazeeyk:
I don't know if this has been said already, but what I would do is this. I would take a more balanced approach to things. And when I say that, I mean make sure that when you are putting together your audio system, make sure that your speakers are compatable with your electronics and your front-ends. In my opinion, buying a very expensive component in one area and then cheapening out in other areas sort defeats what you set out to do. And let me clarify this even a little further. Say if you spend $2,500.00 on the speaker system, and then you spend less than say, $1,000.00 on the amplifier, what that $2,500.00 speaker system is going to do is show up the shortcomings and the flaws of that $1,000.00 amplifier, and in the end, all that is going to do is hender your enjoyment of your system. And that defeats the purpose of what you set out to do in the first place. If you are going to overspend in one area at all, then I would spend about $1,500.00 to $2,000.00 on the amplifier and mate it to the $2,500.00 speaker system. In my opinion, a $1,500.00 amplifier will prove to be a more synergistic match for a $2,500.00 speaker, hypothetically speaking. And then that would leave less than $1,000.00 for a CD Player. I say less than $1,000.00 because you still have to allow for cables too. And I think that for a $5,000.00 system, you don't plan to be using any Radio Shack specials with it, will you?? So, in summing all of this up, how would I allocate my funds??? The way I would do so is as follows:
(01). Speaker System -- $2,000.00 to $2,500.00
(02). Amplifier (and more than likely, it will probably be an integrated model as opposed to a separate preamp/power amp) -- $1,500.00
(03). CD Player -- $1,000.00 (give or take $200.00 or so)
(04). Cables -- $200.00 to $500.00
If you follow this formula, it will give you a system that will give you a foundation to build on later on when you decide to upgrade, with the speaker system and amplifier being cornerstones for your new system. The component I'll be looking to upgrade down the road would be the CD Player (and possibly, the cables).
What do you think of this idea??
--Charles-- |
This thread seems about dead but I will kick in my own POV.
There really is no argument that speakers make more of a difference in the sound of your system than any other component. Electrostatics, cones, horns....all produce quite different sounds.
There is also more bang for the buck in speakers up to maybe $2-3K, maybe even to $10K. That is to say, a $200 CD player doesn't sound as good as a $2000 CD player but the difference isn't nearly as great as owners of high end CD players will tell you. It just isn't; listen for yourself.
In contrast, you can buy an EXCELLENT set of speakers for $2000 whereas a $200 pair will drive you and your cats right out of the house. Again, this is simple truth that you can confirm by listening for yourself.
That's why the GIGO or "spend more on the source" argument is ultimately fallacious.
My suggestion is that you listen to various types and makes of speakers until you have a feel for the kind of speaker sound that you like. Then buy a moderately good pair of speakers of that type. Match them with sound mid-fi electronics and get busy listening. As your ears become more sophisticated, you'll probably want better electronics but if you've done your homework the speakers will keep you happy long enough to get your electronic upgrades done. THEN...if you long for better reproducers you can start questing for them.
In summary:
(1) Speakers vary more in sound than any other component...by far!
(2) Speakers differ in quality more on the basis of price than any other component...by far!
(3) Speakers are the most important key to listening satisfaction.
And the nice thing about my dogmatic assertions is that they're all so easily provable....just by listening.
Enjoy!
will |
Having wandered in the dark space of Speakers first for many years, I finaly find myself firmly in source first land. It is not true that all CDPs are the same once you get above a certain threshold, neither is it true that all speakers are the same. My current ratio is about 2:1 CD to Speakers and while I was skeptical I did what Will suggested and listened. Result: resounding source first.
Interestingly, this debate has been pretty much resolved in the UK (in favor of source first) - but the debate seems alive and kicking here in the US. I wonder why?
|
Well, dj, that's what makes life interesting. I wonder if the difference between UK and USA has to do with the oft-cited "fact" (which isn't that at all, of course) that all UK speakers sound pretty much the same.
I do think that there are more similarities than differences in sound among UK speaker manufacturers. Gotta love that BBC sound (and I do!).
will |
I'm from the UK and I think that the source first arguments (garbage in, garbage out) are nonsense ... the entire signal path is equally important. I agree with Will that cheap CD players sound remarkably good, but I've only heard a couple of expensive CD players (both Meridian) and I was glad I saved my money and bought a Marantz. |
Not sure I would hold a torch up for Meridian CD players either! The problem with CD is that you do have to move up a long way to get the kind of returns you can get with Vinyl at much lower levels. I agree most CDPs are crap and time spent arguing between them is pointless...this however is a little different to the source first argument. |
Kraz, I do this... Because I've been there and done that. A modest budget and so many choices. Oh my!!!
However, what makes you happy is the number one criteria.
But in my humble opinion I don't think you can go wrong with the following. Remember everyone has an opinion and this is mine...
Speakers first. I've had a bunch There's some good used speakers to be had at very reasonable prices. (Spendors 1/2 are nice) two grand with stands - used.
Consider the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD player. At $770 (new) fully tweaked it's a true sleeper. (the garbage in garbage out therory in effect)
Speaker cable at say six bucks a foot and another eighty bucks for bananas. So for two twelve foot biwire cables and bananas that's $224.
CD player cables say $300
You're at (we'll round up) $3,500 dollars.
Now the question is what $1,500 dollar integrated amp to buy? You can pick up say a Creek 5350 or McIntosh MA6450 and have a system of you'll be proud and your friends envious. |
I have spent 2 hours reading all the threads and appreciate all the advices and possible systems for $5K. I am also looking for a system for about $5K. Now is it possible for
the audiophiles out there to put together ... like a Chinese
Restaurant menu of : choice 1, choice 2, and choice 3 and all within the $5K budget.
Lazy Listener of good music.
zippy |
Hey there...
I can just share my experience. While a friend was auditioning speakers, we heard Martin Logan electrostatics. I couldn't believe the sound. Mids and highs so full and clear. Especially voices... I fell in love, and a couple years later, bought the Aerius i model. At the time, they were 2,300. I got an NAD integrated amp and some MIT4 cables to go with them, and used my mini CD player for a source! Total cost was about 3,000.
Fast forward a couple years, and I was unhappy with how my speakers were sounding. I got a CD changer from Sherwood Newcastle (like 300), and finally upgraded the amp to a VTL IT 85 (another 2,500). I'm still using the MIT cables, but am planning to upgrade. (my speakers are not that sensitive, but the VTL powers them fine!)
My system, without great cables or a great CD player is sounding REALLY great with the upgrade in power supply. I guess I'm lucky, I have an apartment that is the right size for my Aerius... at least I think it must be the right size, because these babies SING so BEAUTIFULLY. i mean, goosebumps up and down my spine.
I'm hoping an upgrade in CD player yields another great improvement. We'll see.
What I learned was, speakers were real important, but so was my power supply. The source, we'll see how important it is... I mean, I may be in for another surprise. But right now, my system sounds really excellent.
My advice, find a good matching pair of speakers with an integrated amp... |
i realized that the maximum i will EVER spend on speakers is $9000 and this would certainly be Sennheizer Orpheus earspeaker system that no floor or monitor speaker i've heard so far can beat. after that the upgrades will only affect sources and preamp. |
$1500 for speaker, $2250 for amplifications, $1250 for CDP. Use off the shelf non-audiophile cable and lamp cord for speaker cable for now and upgrade those later. |
Provide yourself with an upgrade path. Looking at todays offerings I find Sonus Faber Electa Amators w/ stands for $2200 obo. And A Proton tuner for $60. There are numerous possibilities for a serious integrated around $1200. Get a decent CD or DVD for under $500 which can serve as a transport when and if you upgrade. Buy interconnects from Wicked or somebody for $35 to $50 bucks a pair and spend a couple of hundred on speaker cables. That's somewhere between $4K and $4.5K depending on the deals you can cut.
Now when you are ready you can add a DAC or a subwoofer and
use your integrated as an amp or preamp while making upgrades to either one. This way you'll be able to thoroughly establish yourself before the disease completely immobilizes any lingering capacity for rational thinking or judicious investment. Good luck and welcome to the ward. |
I have heard the opinion for years which states that you should put the bulk of your system budget in speakers. It was probably first authored by the speaker companies who mark speakers up substantially more than the electronic companies. The baton was then quickly passed to the retailers who clearly make more money from speaker markup than electronics as well. It is true that garbage speakers are no bargain at any price, but come on people, you must agree that people's opinions on speakers are more influenced by name brand reputation and snob appeal than any other component. There is a pantheon of highly tauted yet horrible speakers...witness the Bose 901...the object lesson. Instead, show me good quality drivers, a speaker that doesn't look like R2D2 in drag, and a a simple design uncluttered by excessive drivers. |
This much I know for certain, there are some speakers that sound better than others costing 2 to 3 times as much. Beware of stereo budget ratios specifying some fractional amount to be dedicated to speakers...unless you are prepared for the endoscope to follow... |
That one is simple. Spend twice the amount that your
willing to disclose to your wife. You will flattly
have to lie about the ic's and speaker cable. Don't
even bother to mention about the power cords. Good luck |
get an FM tuner, that is a lot of fun, I am shure if you get one you will like it and afterwards you will try to get a better one. I have the Magnum Dynalab MD100r and I listen to it every night, both classical music, Opera and talk-programs. Best regards, Antonio Machado. |
People amaze me with their opinions. But here's mine for what it's worth. FIRST, figure out what type of music you like. Rock, R&B, pop, rap, clasical, jazz....THEN you can pick the best components for $5k. Generally I perfer the sound of a tube system (I have one now). But everyone is different....but the catch 22 is how do you know without listening to each?
You check my FB and if you want my opinion, you talk to me and tell me what type of music you like, your room size & detailed configuration and we'll go from there.
Regards,
Steve
214-236-5915 |
I wonder if Krazeeyk had made the decision and bought the system and is happy or not with it...
Initially, balanced spending is a good idea, but as your listening ability grows in the audiophile direction (which can be good or bad, depending upon whose point of view), you can grow dissatisfied with your system. If you're in this for the long haul, maybe out of the $5K budget, $3K should be spend on a used, very good source (CD player or 'table) so that you can stop worrying about the source for a long term. If the source is good, than it's only a matter of getting the downstream better.
$500 can be used to buy a used integrated amp (something from Rotel/NAD/Cambridge/older MF) and $700 for used speakers (B&W older DM or CDM series, CDM-1 maybe is in this range, or used Vandy's?), $600-750 for very good used speaker cables and $100-150 for used interconnect. A used $500 amp will be most likely single-ended only, and when you upgrade there's a chance you want to get a balanced system. In this case, initial investment in an expensive SE interconnect makes less sense. But you always need your speaker cables, no matter what speakers you use (unless you get a Meridian active speakers).
When budget allows, I would suggest to trade-up the electronis first to pre- and power-amp or very good integrated and speakers the last when you really have the dough to buy that super speaker you've been dreaming about. I guess my principle is buy something that you want to keep for a long, long time. |
I wonder if Krazeeyk had made the decision and bought the system and is happy or not with it...
Initially, balanced spending is a good idea, but as your listening ability grows in the audiophile direction (which can be good or bad, depending upon whose point of view), you can grow dissatisfied with your system. If you're in this for the long haul, maybe out of the $5K budget, $3K should be spend on a used, very good source (CD player or 'table) so that you can stop worrying about the source for a long term. If the source is good, than it's only a matter of getting the downstream better.
$500 can be used to buy a used integrated amp (something from Rotel/NAD/Cambridge/older MF) and $700 for used speakers (B&W older DM or CDM series, CDM-1 maybe is in this range, or used Vandy's?), $600-750 for very good used speaker cables and $100-150 for used interconnect. A used $500 amp will be most likely single-ended only, and when you upgrade there's a chance you want to get a balanced system. In this case, initial investment in an expensive SE interconnect makes less sense. But you always need your speaker cables, no matter what speakers you use (unless you get a Meridian active speakers).
When budget allows, I would suggest to trade-up the electronis first to pre- and power-amp or very good integrated and speakers the last when you really have the dough to buy that super speaker you've been dreaming about. I guess my principle is buy something that you want to keep for a long, long time. |
If you budget is a bit restrictive it should not make things to difficult,however that doesnt mean you will get what you want but it may mean you will be able to succeed with the hard choices.The question was not how much but when and what? I spent less than that and truly I was never more satisfied.The speakers actually came last,and cables were not a problem.One of the lessons that this type of thinking allowed for was the value that you personally cared for and something related and that was the quality of the purchase.I learned the value of what good amplification means because that was my first purchase.If you do some reading about all those numbers that appear in owners manuals and the like it will help you understand the relationship between the preamp/amp/ and the effect that they have on the loudspeakers ability to express the content of a disc or even lp. A good amplifer is your answer to your investment in how much to spend on loudspeakers . However things were to work out for me I spent 1,700.00 on a integrated amp and next 1,500.00 on a cd playback and last but not least I got an excellent deal on the loudspeakers that I so desperately wanted.They were to cost me a little more than 1,200.00.I waited a while and though it was not the only way it was simply a sale that appeared in the newspaper and I made a serious decision, I thought it through carefully and I can tell you very happy stories of the experience that that provided me with.This was not done overnight because I had other things that took precedent,like being honest,however I, to this very day never regretted it.Good Luck |
I would spend more on speakers and power amp basically.
My suggestions:
1. Speakers: $2000
2. Power amp: $1000
3. Preamp: $800
4. Digital Source (CD player or Transport+D/A): $800
5. Cables: $400
I would recommend to purchase mint condition used stuff with your 5k budget. Good luck!
|
But I always buy used as much as i can. I just dont think it makes sense to have a limited budget and loose 1/2 of it when you want to upgrade...
I spent 600 on my Berning TF-10 preamp, 600 on my Parasound CDP-2000 Ultra, 400 on a Kinergetics Chiro C200 (140w/ch), and 600 on JBL L-96 speakers... and the cables are Vampire Wire copper and DH Labs ST100 hybrid (about 120 in cables),,,
What you get in a certain system is not really reflected in retail prices,,,I think that speakers squeeze a lot more performance for the dollar than the electronics,,,so to say you need 3K amps to match 5K speakers, in my opinion is nonsense,,,
There is a leveling curve at some point, and when you get some good Spendor, AudioPhysics, ProAc,Paradigm, PSB, or used Thiel, Hales, or whathavya, you will have enough speaker to be able to enjoy whichever electronics you choose.
I found that actually I rather spend (just realized it lately) on a preamp. |
Krazeeyk-
I think your suggestion to pick a target budget for your system and stick with it is wise. There is a lot of flexability within that structure, and I think being decided upon one or two guidelines in a new venture will relieve some of the confusion that comes with so many choices. Ultimately, the value you achieve in your system will come from honest evaluations of what you hear. Synergy wont be achieved by following any one kind of recipe, even as all of the advice you have received from the posts above are excellent. My advice-keep an open mind. set your budget-consider the advice you have gotten, and then break with everything but that which your ears tell you works the best.Finally, be honest! This is your system and its ultimate value arrives in the enjoyment you derive from it. |
As much as you've got! *s* Seriously, I don't actually believe that, but in my experience you have to get over $1,000.00 to get into what I consider some of the best speakers you can buy....Spendors or Harbeths. Then it's simply a matter of how big both your room and budget are.
It really doesn't get much simpler than that. Try some,
then try some others and see for yourself. Music, plain and simple. |
Listen to lots of live music, then start demoing speakers that are attractive to you IN YOUR ROOM! After all, you have to live with them, even you, like most of us, listen with eyes closed and lights dimmed. Start creeping up in price, continuing to redemo the previous favorite, until you arrive at a price/performance pair you really like.
In my 2 ch ref system this took a year, starting with my vestigial home-made 2-ways through Paradigm Monitors, Thiels, Aeriels, 803N, Fidelios, and finally a demo pair of Parsifal Encores. Ok, that was a quite unrealistic path for most folks, but I'm into these for life (I'm 51, and we FrancoAmericans die young.)....
The second recent go-around concerned our HT system, where I demoed a bunch of 5.1 sub/sat systems, eventually going for the honest midrange of an affordable ($1400) Spendor S3/1p +SC3 front trio. For Ellen's kitchen system the $199 Onkyo CR305TX minisystem, bookshelf-mounted, was a no-brainer. Likewise a leftover pair of Polk whatevers from two years ago serves the bedroom TV exceptionally well.
Hope you're getting my drift. You set your musical priorities and go from there. I always start with the best transducer-in-the-room (loudspeaker), given the source(s), and then amplify appropriately. Cheap Canare Star-Quad cabling is great, except for the 2ch ref system. Try to be really patient, listening objectively. Sometimes reading while listening, or listening from an adjacent room will give you indirect cues that otherwise aren't recognized because you're trying to get analytical. Females are very helpful for sorting out upper octave stuff, too. (My 17yr old daughter speeds up my Steinway treble voicing immeasurably. Same with interconnect and my DIY PCKit comparos.) I just realized that this thread is TWO YEARS OLD!...Happy New Year AGAIN everybody. |
If I have 5K, I would spend it directly in the following components:
1.5K on a pair of Merlin TSM-Milleniums
2K on a sort of integrated, I would vouch for either SS or integrated, the Merlins are efficient so even integrated from 25 Watts Class A would do, I think that can focus of an integrated from Pathos....around 2K usedor 1.K on a 47 Labs Shigaraki Integrated (20watts SS), with a great drive and excellent midrange
or 1.5 K on a used 47 Labs Gaincard integrated with one source input....(25 watts) the best watts according to many fans.
1.5K on a DAC converter+DVD transportCables, you choose, you can get several feet of 47 Labs OTA cables...that work, rather well.
I am not interested in arguments about the merits of spending xx% on this and xx on that, the fact is that you need a set up As Solid As Possible NOW, instead of thinking about some future upgrades.
The main components need to be solid in performance right away.
DVD as transport is perfectly fine for now
I guess you can focus in two ways of dealing with the digital front end issue...Either afford the best Transport you can now and the rest in a DAC or vice versa.
With a set up as I stated about, I doubt you would need to feel the urge to upgrade for a long, long time.
I believe in maximum sound NOW and not LATER. |
Krayzeeyk (Curb fan?),
Here's my advice:
1. Speakers make the biggest difference. Spend the most money here.
2. Cd source is almost as important. Spend the next largest amount on the cd player.
3. Amps are amps after the first $500. Sound improvement is in the smallest increment here. Golden Ears say otherwise, but for the rest of us...Of course, amps have a very high "cool" factor that might lead you to spend your cash here. Be honest with yourself, if cool factor is important spend more money on your amp. |
Virgil, I completely disagree. My upgrade in amps was one of the top two most significant improvements I made. I wouldn't have the enjoyment and world class sound I'm getting now without my VAC. |
Dennis_the_menace
I'm glad the upgrade was worth it for you, but in my experience it just is not cost effective to spend a large percentage of my audio system's budget to upgrade amps. IMO, sink $2000 in an amp upgrade and I see only a little benefit [unless it replaces a very old or just plain bad amp]. Spend that $2000 on a speaker upgrade and the benefits are incredible.
There's certainly an argument for amps giving sound benefits, definitely more so than cables or line amplifiers which I consider bordering on quackery. It's just that I consider amps the third most important after source and speaker; and a distant third for me.
Everyone's mileage varies of course.
|
