Jadem6: Why such hostility? I'm always open to learning, and I try to learn constantly. I recommend it to you, too. I've been away, busy with work, writing, playing music, etc. It's good to have a little free time again. |
What's wrong, Dekay? Why would I not want to think or hear? BTW, are you still up for double-blind tests of power cords? |
I do them all the time, it's my new life. Where have you been? I don't do judge and jury anymore (just make obvious observations on my own) so, you will have to answer the other questions on your lonesome. |
702, is there a site that you actually enjoy? I know you do not care for Audiogon, as you come here only to argue about your silly double blind theory.
Your insistence in continuing with the same tired argument that has been responded to by dozens of Audiogon members, proves your inability to think for yourself. You are either too shallow to accept our challenge to learn, or you care absolutely nothing for music and refuse to invest the time or money required to make it better.
You are a pseudo intellect. You visit here only to engage people in arguments over matters that you have no real passion for. The real drive behind your politics is to prove your mental prowess, boost your ego and enthrall yourself with the attitude of superiority.
It's too bad you cannot channel some of that energy into learning about music and the audio components required to make it better. You could improve your system (if you have one), and possibly even find your life fulfilled for once, possibly even finding happiness.
Of course I could be wrong, you may be so void of all soul, passion, creativity and the ability to grasp a challenging concept, that it would be lost on you. If the latter turns out to be true, then you deserve our pity. |
I have had a psychologist friend of mine look at the posts made by 702 here. It is perhaps unfair of me to quote his diagnosis fully, particularly the bits about the kinds of events in his past that might have caused 702's dysfunctional interactions. Sadly we are likely to be the closest friends he has and he knows no other way to get our attention and love. You are right in one thing Albert - it is pity he deserves. |
Well now I feel bad. When it's looked at that way Red, it all makes sense. That explains why he continues to let us in on some of his career success, he wants us to be impressed and become his friend.
O.K. 7, I'm sorry. Please tell me more about your self so I have a better understanding of you. Maybe you could let me know which shows you've worked on. Your in the business, what studio do you work out of? You must have met some fascinating people along the way. Oh and one last question, why do you insist that power cords make no difference when they clearly do?
Hope to hear more about you soon,
J.D. |
You guys are too kind. Or are you? |
I've recently completed my PC test - results posted in a new thread.
JHunter |
Don't you think you guys are going over the line re: 702? You might disagree with him, but this evaluation of his motives, interests, personality is really uncalled for. |
Keep in mind Jhunter that you have shown the integrity to try a power cord on a system you know. I think the reaction you have received (on your other post) shows all we want is open minds. You have separated yourself from the other nay sayers, even though your opinion has not changed.
You've receive my respect, 7 receives nothing for he has offered nothing. So to answer your question, NO! I'm be completely in line given the respect 7 has show me. |
Albertporter: why do you say I don't care for Audiogon or for music? Do you have some psychic ability to look into peoples' thoughts? If you do, it's defective.
What's your basis for saying I'm unable to think for myself? Do you have some rebuttal to double-blind testing? If so, please, please tell me what faults you find with it and what sort of testing is better and why.
And should I care that someone who believes in magic properties of wires believes I'm a "pseudo intellect?"
I have my ideas of what learning about music and audio is, and they do not coincide with yours. And I channel my energy into learning the way I see is correct, which means real research and testing and involvement.
Jadem6: Ha ha ha haaa!! |
7, no problem if ewe do real research, testing, & inwolvement. woodn't hurt if ewe tried *listening*, too... refusal to try someting yust cuz it doesn't fit into yer pre-conceived notions of what's possible, isn't *real* research, testing, inwolvement. gotta include *all* the data for that... doug s. |
Sedond: why do you assume that I don't listen? That's part of testing, man. |
7, everyone here is still waiting to hear what kinda music ewe listen to, on what equipment, w/what cabling, & what equipment/cabling yure familiar with. *yure* the one keeping it a secret. what's the point? i thought the purpose of this site was to learn by sharing experiences. no one can learn from ewe when ya keep everyting a secret, except yer belief that cabling makes no difference. whether one agrees or disagrees about the worthiness of cabling upgrades, yer beliefs have no meaning w/o examples of how ewe came to them... doug s. |
I must agree with Sedond. The question of equipment is a topic I have ask you ( 702 ) about on many occasions. The question continues because you avoid all discussion that concern either music or the equipment necessary to make it work. My reason for saying that you do not care for this site is based strictly on such actions.
Audiogon is about the tools necessary to improve music reproduction. You are preoccupied with the desire to discuss (only) ABX testing methods. You have thus far expressed no other interest or otherwise made any contribution to this forum. From such actions, what other conclusion could we reach? It is much like the person who says they are serious about attending a live performance or a movie and then instead, talk all the way through it.
Possibly a dozen posters have already addressed ad nauseam, our reasons for not applying ABX testing to high end systems. Regardless of how often it is explained, the best we seem to accomplish is your non response, followed some time later with yet another ABX posting as though the subject had not been covered.
Obviously, any interest you have for music is totally and completely overshadowed by your passion for this subject. I cannot imagine why it offers you so much comfort unless it is for the reasons I have already expressed. It would be wonderful to have you surprise us with a response that shatters what you have offered to date. |
Hi 702, unlike me you seem to have a good knowledge of electronics and why things should or should not work. I believe that most PC,IC, speaker cable, ETC have a sound, coloration or whatever you want to call it. Maybe thats part of our problem. When I put something new in my system, I expect a change in sound. You are coming from a different point of view. I guess you don't expect a change in sound with PCs. Maybe we both have preconceived ideas. As far as double blind testing, I have tried and failed but that does not mean PCs are not a benefit. It just means I failed. I could give reasons why double blind testing doesn't work for me but it would sound like I am making excuses.
I don't think you are a pseudo intellect, I think our background in audio sometimes gets in our way. Even though I failed blind testing, at least I gave it a try. Have you or will you give a PC a try? I have one you can borrow for a week or two. I took the PC challenge and failed but it doesn't change the fact that PCs can be a valuable upgrade. I challenge you to try my PC. With this challenge there is no failure. You hear a difference or you don't.
Hang in there 702, I like the way you stand up for yourself. I agree with Jhunter, I think you are getting less respect than deserved. |
Sedond: If I told you what I use, I wouldn't have the fun of seeing a bunch of people telling me what _they_ think it is. ;-)
Albertporter: Obviously what? You make a lot of assumptions on things you know nothing about, Albert. Maybe that's why you disapprove of blind listening tests? To me, valid tests require that assumptions and biases be eliminated and that they be maximally sensitive. That means double-blind testing, especially ABX. Non-blind listening tests are so easily fudged that they aren't worth a bucket of warm spit except to the person making a sale.
Brulee: When I put in something new, I don't expect a change in sound unless I purposely alter something that will obviously change the signal; I wait to listen to see if there actually is a change. Expecting a change is an assumption, an article of faith, a baseless and premature decision. To be open minded, you have to first prove that there is a change; then you can decide if it's a change for the better or not. I don't expect a change with PCs because in my experience, any design engineer halfway competent or better is going to make his power supply robust enough to handle AC that varies over some range, and a change in the AC wires to the outlet just isn't going to make a detectable difference unless the wires are actually damaged. I'd like to try some of the fancy PCs some time in a proper double-blind test with a bunch of different listeners who are sharp and then publish the results. It's not a priority, though, just because I've got a lot of other stuff on my plate already, and those that pay the bills get first dibs. Some people whose opinion and audio knowledge I respect have done numerous blind tests of all sorts of cables and found that within certain parameters (for example, comparing a 12 gauge speaker cable, whether it's zip cord or something fancy, to a 24 gauge wire would be an absurd thing), they don't affect the sound because their electrical effects are minimal enough. OTOH, I've yet to find or read about anyone who actually knows audio and electronics (and I don't mean just knowing the buzzwords or how to sell) who genuinely believes in fancy special cables AND can prove that they're better. |
702, ewe can make yokes about it all ya want, but it still doesn't make what i say any less true. brulee is right there's potentiual here, for us to learn from yer experience, but up unti now, we have fro ewe zilch, nuttin', nada. total waste of time. doug s. |
|
here is my guess.
All Levinson reference front end,
Watt Puppy 6.1 speakers
Transparent ref. xl I.C. with Opus Speaker cable
PS audio ultimate outlet feeding PS 1200 and PS 300
Way exotic power cords...
Am I close? |
Hi 702, could you define "proper double-blind test" for me. After hearing the ICs and speaker cable from the Sakura OTA kit I agree with 702 that the fancy special cables arent necessarily better. In fact I have yet to hear anything as good as the OTA wire. I can't help but think that I have been getting shafted by the wire MFG. for all these years. But no more. When $12,000 worth of wire gets spanked by $300 worth of OTA wire it gets me a little pissed. Live and learn I guess.
Hey Dekay, you gonna try making a PC out of the OTA? I'll be more than happy to go in on it again. |
Hi Bruce: No, I am afraid of burning the home front down with any DIY PC that I would attempt (regardless of what wire was used). I also gave most of my extra cable to a friend to use as speaker wire and just have enough left for additional IC's (never did do the second system). I think that the next experiment will be bi-passing the RCA's (on one end of the IC's) with a direct soldered connection. I just purchased a used TDS Audiophile and thought that I would try it on this. I would also like to try this with my speakers (bi-pass the binding posts), but have not built up the nerve yet. Maybe JC will want to try making up a PC, he certainly has the know how? |
702, So Bill Johnson, Richard Vandersteen, Arnie Nudell, Mark Levinson(the man), Jim Winey, and other manufacturer/designers are all hearing things(these are NOT cable manufacturers) when they tell you to use "tweako" cables to make their products sound best. Right?? |
Thanks Frap, one of the points that I have continually brought up to 702, in an attempt to show that the engineering side of the business believes in the same high performance equipment that we audiophiles do.
There is absolutely nothing for Richard Vandersteen, Steve McCormack and other famous audio engineers to gain by praising these aftermarket products. In fact some customers could perceive that their products are flawed in requiring these expensive cables to perform optimally. Not a great marketing position unless they truly believe.
The only possible reason for their position is they hear the difference, they enjoy the improvements and they are willing to spend their hard earned cash to back up their convictions.
People who's value system is different, could and perhaps should avoid these upgrades. I understand too, those who share the passion but fail to commit due to budget, wife or conscience. If the latter is the real issue, this is the appropriate place to perform the infamous double blind test. Sit quietly and see if your conscience is filled with "sour grapes" convictions, severely limiting your minds eye the ability to hear the beauty of what these products offer. |
Dekay- Brulee just brought the subject of a PC to my attention. I'll take a look around here. I'm sure I have a few IEC and 15A connectors here someplace. However, I hope to be moving soon, so I can't promise exactly when this little endeavor will be completed. (Most of my collection of parts are in boxes, in anticipation of the 'new' house). |
JC, just make hard connections to Bruce's outlet and the component (skip the plug and IEC), I'm certain that he won't mind (unless there is a thunder storm). |
That is what I call a PC challenge.
Could be a hair raising experience! |
I finally got bored enough to go through this thread, although I did skip around after a while (it was started getting personal.)
I must say I have gained respect for Albert's position and it's consistency (unfortunantly not for everyone who shares it.) By steadfastly rejecting blind tests and focusing on a whole experience sort of thing, *psychological effects and all*, he's arguing something totally different than the skeptics. It gets much broader and more philosophical, even more interesting perhaps.
The problem I see with this position is that it leaves people very susceptible to marketing driven products, and leaves no objective way to protect yourself, or even distinguish them. That may be all well and good for people who have this as their primary hobby (time and energy sink) and/or those for whom money is no object. Others may want to pursue musical nirvana more efficiently. Given the two methods, I can't even say if the destination would end up the same.
Anyway, with regard to cables, and in the spirit of peace, harmony and good will, here's what I think we can all agree on (with no qualifiers):
Gauge matters.
Construction matters.
RFI can be a problem. |
Marketing hype actually makes people more skeptical of a product, not less. When products start claiming fantastic results, they expect nothing less. If they don't hear an astounding difference, then they are more apt to think its a hoax than to fall for the placebo effect. |
Holy crap this issue again!?
Don't you think that if power cords made a difference then huge dollar equipment makers would include them with their product? Don't tell me that "frickin" KRELL would be concerned with cost cutting and save margin by putting a smaller guage cord on their stuff? God knows that they would talk it up in their ads (and god knows that they could count on Stereophile mag to pump it up!). I'm purchasing one high quality cord to see if I can hear a difference, I will report what I hear. |
Mhubbard. Reasonable thinking about including high quality cords with Krell. Unfortunately, this thread is an excellent example of everyone NOT agreeing as to the value of such products.
What would Krell do when a good customer avoided buying their product, refusing to be forced to pay the extra $150.00 or $250.00 for the cord? This would apply doubly, if that customer believed it was an ineffective and unnecessary expense.
It's the very reason manufacturers traditionally do not include NOS tubes or isolation devices for their products. Krell and others are better off allowing the customer to make these decision them self, even if you are correct that the product would benefit from the inclusion. |
i tink albert is correct. one fact that he fails to mention is that many mfr's actually *do* recommend the purchase of aftermarket power cords. some, however, do not... fwiw, doug s. |
702 makes some valid points in my opinion. I rarely do blind testing, but several days ago I did and was surprised by the results. A friend made two recordings using different cables from the source to the recorder. Then he played the two recordings for me without telling me which was done with which cable. ( A single blind test ).
I found myself trying to guess which was which by paying attention to his non-intentional clues. I also kept changing my mind about how A sounded to me, then about how B sounded to me. Without any reference or the armor of my preconceptions, I felt a bit naked. For the first time I feel like I experienced what the double-blind proponents were talking about.
I finally got my friend to give me the remote and stop giving off any clues. Of course, some "damage" was done by now because he'd given clues already. I continued the test and finally was able to form my opinions of the similarity and difference between A & B. It took longer than a non-blind test normally takes me.
The blind test forced me to rely on different things than I'm used to. I was uncomfortable with the change. I also felt some stress to furnish information without being able to rely on my bias.
My conclusion is that I will use all methods in the future. I will use single and double-blind tests when it's possible to do so, as it takes extra work and people to set up. And, I will do my own sighted listening tests.
I know this is an endless debate and even banned outright to discuss on Audio Asylum, but I really think there's a place for all forms of testing. |
Lawyer: I will be doing the very same test that you just performed, in the near future, when I set up a new CDR to record tape (old cassette collection) to digital. I need to know which IC is best for the recording process which may be completely different than their playback ability. Now I regret selling some of my extra IC's as one of them may have been a clear winner for this application. |
Yes, we discovered that the IC that sounded best for playback did not sound the same for recording as it did in playback mode. We're still deciding which is "best".
One of the IC's gave less record surface noise on the CDR. The other gave less record surface noise on playback mode? |
Good info to have as it will encourage me to play around with it even more. I suspect that the HT Truthlinks, that I sold, would have been nice for the job. Too late now. |
Albertporter. I dont know that people who buy Krell or any other super high end componet would have a problem with seeing a nice fat cord included with their hardware. I dont see many people saying that these aftermarket cords "hurt" performance; only that it does nothing, or it sounds better.
The mindset of most consumers is not "oh my god"! "look, I'm paying for this nice looking cord, and I dont need it". I would guess that most consumers would say "cool, look at this nice cord they "included" with my gear"! This is (in my opinion) the response most tech geeks(lovers) have to a product feature.
Or perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way? |
Mhubbard. As long as it was included and the price did not suddenly rise to cover the expense to Krell for supplying it. The price the factory pays for any given part is usually five times that amount at retail ( to the end user ).
Even assuming that the Krell people can purchase a great aftermarket cord at one fourth of what we pay, the price still turns out to be more than retail at the check out counter.
There are those who would object if the cost were even a few hundred dollars more, and those who did not object to the price, would likely have their own idea as to which brand they preferred at that price level.
I am glad I do not have to make the decision as to which cord to include. My guess is no matter what you choose, someone would be unhappy. Better to include a decent quality Belden that cost $4.00 and keep the price low. You are probably already paying $20.00 for that stock Belden that is included for "free." |
Hello Bruce,
I myself have been wondering very much about this topic and have found myself having a similar conversation with my father. I am quite new to HiFi and take about all the advice I can get (so anyone reading this please feel free to share your opinions). You could even say my interest in HiFi was sparked by my pop's interest. Anyways, my dad in his younger days loved music and became an electrical engineer out of his interest for acoustics. He was fortunate enough to land a job using some very ridiculously expensive test equipment, bruer and kerr (I think is how you spell it phonetically), supposedly its the best. I can't say from first hand experience because I chose to study computer science instead of following old pop's footsteps. Anyways, from what he has told me, this is the same brand of test equipment that McIntosh (I'm sure other companies as well) uses to design, measure and calibrate their amplifiers. This same brand also builds exteremly precise amplifiers (greatly exceeding the technical specifications of those used for HiFi audio) for vibration tables used in scientific research. Ok, whats the moral of the story? The equipment I mentioned earlier in the post all use "regular" or "stock" power cables. |
Well according to the brochure I read, they filter noises,
they clean power,other than that with my experience with
costum power cord, and cardas pc, and kimber pc, they
did a lot of improvement with my system.Its like forget
about trying to forget how a plane can fly,JUST FLY
AND TRAVEL WITH, CASE DISMISSED, NEXT CASE PLEASE. |
I prefers Krazeeyk's conclusion!! |
A new creation in power cord design has just been released and I mean radically new. In terms of performance, it will be far more important than the eletronics it is being pluged into. |
Is it wireless and voice activated, or do I need to clap?:)
steve |
