Amuseb, My Hornings are less than one foot from the rear wall. Maybe the fact that the room is huge is counteracting that. It is a large room with a 16 foot ceiling, slate floors, untreated.
Amesub, if you are using the stock plastic footers they may be contributing to the problem. The speakers benefit from greater clearance from the floor. I can suggest an alternative if you need one. |
Amuseb,
I think I understand your pain. I believe that everyone hears somewhat differently. I also have a set of the Eufrodites. And have tried to overcome this same feeling of unnatural bass. Sometimes production can overcome the situation (Porcupine Tree always sounded brilliant) but all else was ruined by what seemed ridiculous boom of bass. If you're still a Eufrodite owner try Stillpoints on the rest of your system. Focus on the source equipment first.
As always everyone's experience is different but for me the fix was to replace my equipment stand. It was a still point and expensive but has worked. And yes stuffing pillows and boards up the behinds of Eufrodites offers some temporary relief but OPEN them up. Let those darlin's breathe!
Good Luck |
Hi, I've seen in many pictures of the US distributors of Horning that in shows he usually locates plants behind the Eufrodites.
Before I drag huge plants into my living room, any thoughts about how this treatment can help with the issues caused by lack of distance from the back wall?
Duke, thanks for referencing Hedback Designes for me but as I live in Europe, it's awkward to adhere to such services located in the US. |
The pillows you tried early on can you put those on the floor underneath the cd storage area? And if you have more, open the doors of that same cabinet and put something soft in there as well. And then leave the doors open for energy to pass thru not to wait in hiding. Tom |
Hi all, So the first expert came along. He wasn't very impressed by my "complaints". He thought I was over reacting. But I think, expert of not, he just doesn't really hear what I hear... We tried some small absorbers made in Japan, triangular shaped that you nail to the corners between the walls and the ceiling. It did clean up the space slightly but the substantial boomy bass wasn't very much affected by it plus it was selling for 1000 euros a pair so forget about it. The guy also brought with him some plastic sheets, again made in Japan, that seat on the speakers and are supposed to absorb resonance etc. This time too they did clean up some noise but at the same time made the music opaque. Not my cup of tea. We also visited the back corners of the room where clearly there's a strong concentration of low waves. He suggested to place bass traps there. I might give it a shot at some point. What more is clear after some trial and error is that distance from the back wall is key in the battle against boomy bass. (Psag, how far are your Eufros from the back walls?). Nevertheless, if I was to follow the Cardas rules of speakers positioning, I would have to place mine 2.4 meters from the back walls... slightly problematic in a leaving room scenario. Other than that, in the meantime, I've done some slight tweaking i.e. hooked up my amp to my Shunyata filter (quiet a big difference it made compared with the straight from the wall Paris parasite feasted juice), put some crystal rocks in the bass ports (as suggested in http://audioexotics.hk/index.php?option=com_simplestforum&view=postlist&forumId=1&parentId=1631), positioned the speakers evenly from the side walls, etc. All the above have helped to improve the situation but not to fully solve it. Will keep updating, any further suggestion are welcome. Regards. |
"I will probably call for some expert opinion on the room acoustics in the coming days." May I recommend Jeff Hedback of Hedback Designed Acoustics. Jeff's day job mostly consists of designing recording studios, and his studios have been honored in the past three "Best of The Year" issues of Mix Magazine (2011, 2012, and 2013). But he has done work for a growing number of home audio and home studio rooms. He doesn't sell any products, just analysis and recommendations, which he still offers at a reasonable rate. Hedback Designed AcousticsWhy not just get bass traps and put them on the corners? Because room acoustic treatment is a little bit like crossover design: Not that hard to do, but quite hard to do really well. One person may say, gee that crossover needs some more capacitance, but the real question is, how much, and where should it go in the circuit? Likewise with bass traps - what kind, how much, and where for most cost-effective and aesthetically acceptable results, are questions that are hard to answer really well. I have worked with Jeff on several projects, and am continually amazed at the innovative solutions he comes up with. Duke |
Amuseb, I've also spent time with Marten and TAD speakers, and I would regard those as audiophile speakers. The Hornings may not have quite the resolution, bandwidth, and flat frequency response of those others, but they are more than respectable in those areas. For me, the magic of the Hornings resides in the midrange. The fact that you can also have deep bass with just a few watts of tube amplification makes these so nice for flea/SET amp users. In my room, the bass is articulate and well-integrated with the rest of the speaker's output. |
Thanks psag.
Interesting, what do you refer to as audiophile speakers? |
I'm indeed not looking to replace them by default. I will probably call for some expert opinion on the room acoustics in the coming days.
Before I had the Alto Utopias here and as Larryi says, they needed high volume playback to really get you into the music while the Eufros play music at any level. What's even more "annoying" is that on the tracks that don't suffer from bass boominess you can hear how nicely these babies play and then another track comes on, the bass gets boomy and you tear your hair.
Sounds_real_audio, I still owe you an answer. I chose these speakers following a recommendation from friend and as I had a really good deal on them. As I believe the only way to know how a component sounds in your room is to try it right there with the rest of your system (and the experience with the Eufros is the best example to that...), my pattern doesn't call for too many store/show listening rather then buying components, trying them here and deciding then.
This is why it's important to buy at a good price so loses are controlled in case of a quick resell.
Overall, I'm really not a picky listener and most of what I had here over the past 3 years, I liked one way or the other.
But the boomy bass is a killer. Just can't listen to music with that sound hence must be resolved.
Thanks for your participation. |
The pair of Eufrodites that I heard sounded terrific--very dynamic and lively, with surprisingly little eviddence of midrange peakiness that I would have expected from the Lowther origins of the midrange driver. Doesn't great sound alone qualify something as audiophile friendly (the high price too adds to the audiophile bona fides)?
I can see how its powerful bass response could be a problem in some rooms, but, that is certainly a speaker system that would be worth the effort to work into any system. To me, most modern speaker systems sound dynamically flat and lifeless and require high volume playback to sound lively. Systems like the Eufrodites are kind of rare (lively without being unnatural in tonal balance) so it would be a sad thing if you have to give it up.
Amuseb, have you looked into room equalizers? If you are reluctant to go the common route of using digital equalization, perhaps you could use something like the Rives equalizer which is analogue and sounds quite nice. |
Thanks psag.
Interesting, what do you refer to as audiophile speakers? |
Amuseb, To answer your previous question: Alas they are in family room, and I am prohibited from using room treatments. So I can't claim to be enjoying audiophile sound, but then again these aren't really audiophile speakers. In the past I've used ASC room treatment products with great success. |
Can I ask you what it was about the Eufrudites that attracted you in the first place? Often with single driver or horn speakers people are struck by the immediacy. Often that love affair goes away. The music is might be too intense or not natural sounding.
I ask because I think you should be looking at other speakers. Too bad you couldn't make it to the Munich show...might have found something there you liked. |
While waiting to see what to do with the Eufrodites, I had to listen to music, which with the Eufros wasn't possible.
Called up a local guy here who was selling some 70's stars, the Celestion Ditton 66, which I had already owned in the past.
550 euros, just as a place holder until matters are sorted out with the HH.
They arrived 2 hours later, delivered by the seller, ugly as hell.
Put them just there, where there was space, hooked them up, music on. Halleluiah.
No boom.
Fast bass.
Speakers completely, but completely disappear in the room.
Yes, the highs aren't as refined and maybe even it's time to replace the tweeter but this is 550 euros of pure musical pleasure.
Now we can calmly solve the HH issues. |
Some back round here.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=bbsBAAAAEBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=4899387&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GyGRT_7aNYSo4gTV8s2eBA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA
And again here.
http://www.stereophile.com/roomtreatments/1289phantom/index.html
Happy Fathers Day. Tom |
You're right, no free trial outside US. I live in London, England, and actually took a risk which paid off.
Beyond this unit, no other room treatments, other than a woolen rug on my wooden floor between me and the spkrs. |
Spiritofmusic, thanks for your advice. As you know, I live in Paris, France and therefore benefiting from the free trial offered by Spatial in the US isn't that musch of a given. As far as I can tell from their web site, they don't have a global distribution network, but I can ask them just to confirm.
Psag, thanks for your comment. Can you tell me what, if any, are the room treatments you have used in your living room? |
Amuseb, are you really sure you can't site a diminutive 12"x12"x12" sub behind you, with one power cable? You could even put a vase of flowers on top to obscure it (max WAF!).
It REALLY solved my boomy bass issues, and maybe more than other contributors here, my prev spkrs are probably as close to yours, and hence experience similar, so I know where you're coming from more than most.
Clayton offers full money back if it doesn't solve your needs. Worth a try, surely? |
I own the Eufrodites. They are in my living room (huge) powered by 10 watts of SET. With the preamp volume set to 11:00 the bass begins to overload the room.
There are 8 sensitive bass drivers per side, which for the most part are rear-firing. They are very dynamic. They need a lot of room to breathe. Also, I suspect that there are room nodes to deal with- you need to treat your entire room, not just the glass wall. Absorption, diffusion, bass trapping, first reflection, etc.
You can work on your other components and experiment with footers, but I suspect that none of that will have any effect on this particular problem.
Any sort of manipulation of the ports will be a step in the wrong direction. The structure and function of the ports is intrinsic to the design and voicing of this finely tuned loudspeaker.
Hope this helps! |
Amuseb
The cabinet under your cd's has vents which from this side
of the ocean makes me think the doors are metal and
something mechanical is behind them. If you could open the
doors or remove them that may help. If the cabinet needed to
stay the way it is now and it could be emptied.. filling
with stone or creek rock would help. You need to port the
cabinet so air will pass thru like an intake and exhaust of
a car. The stone will act as natural diffuser and not as a
damper like foam or fiberglass. You should also put stone
underneath the cabinet on the floor. You could cover these
areas that contain the stone with grill cloth. The cd
cabinet above... could have a full width door that fits
flush against your music collection. From the front, the
door would be hinged on the right side with the door handle
on the left side. When you are playing music you could open
the door so it's angle will steer the bass around and in
front of the wall with the 90 degree angle. This will bring
the bass pressure more to the center of the room and reduce
standing wave resonance in the area around the niche. Tom |
all, as you can see, my system is in the middle of our, a family of six, living room hence I'm trying to avoid adding all types of electronics all around to compensate for acoustic issues.
it's also ideally all day long that music is playing in this room hence it has to sound at least decent, i.e. as in no boomy, all around as opposed to only sound good in the sweet spot.
it's also important to note the fact that it's beyond my capacity to now go argue with a French real estate agency who runs the building we live in, about if I can or can not take down a piece of a wall that did survive two World Wars and other events since its construction in 1895.
the good news are, that being definitely convinced, as some folks have suggested, that the problem comes from the structure of the left side of the room, I started by simply dropping a carpet over the white cupboard under the CDs rack and, without celebrating too much yet, I think it's making a not so marginal difference, to the positive side of things.
so now deep breath, focus, no panic (as other folks have so truly suggested).
I'm going to continue going down that route, treating the "boom boom corner" on the left.
cross fingers, sit still and wait for breaking news.
and if you have more suggestions, please. |
I used to run Zu Definitions 2 spkrs with xoverless full range drivers and 4 x 10" rear firing woofers per spkr, ie many similarities to your Hornings. Always found bass had a tendency to boom and overpower the room. My solution which was c80% effective? Installing a Spatial Computer Black hole anti-bass wave generator. This is in effect a one cubic foot subwoofer sited behind/alongside the listener next to a wall, with integral mic which samples the bass put out by the main spkrs; via dsp, it puts out a cancelling wave of bass, so dealing with standing waves and bass nodes.
Bass hash/boom was much improved, with subsequent improvement in intelligibility, transparency and dynamics.
At $1300 with a full money back guarantee if not happy, you can't go wrong. Clayton Shaw who runs the company is one of the good guys in audio. |
Must be sleepy time in Paris.. |
Sorry the boards-in-the-port didn't help.
Equalization or a solid state amp are probably your least room-intrusive possibilities at this point. And nothing wrong with room treatment.
Unfortunately I don't have any more inexpensive suggestions.
It is possible that a couple of small, cheap subwoofers, placed one behind each of your speakers and operating out-of-phase, would introduce enough cancellation to smooth things out.
Duke |
Tom is right,
I have done much more extensive structural changes in my room in order to tame room bass modes. It is a difficult decision, but by looking at it, shouldn't be that difficult to implement technically- and, you will thank yourself later.
Without some serious re-building you will be "doomed", as far, as the bass goes |
The front left side is the culprit..I thought this was in the back of the room. The wall is deflecting and reinforcing the bass and the cabinet below and the space below that is acting as a storage drum. Wow your room looks great..but consider taking that nich/nook/ storage out and leave the radiator it won't interfere any way. Tom |
While I realize that you've indicated the boominess is present even at low volume levels, have you considered the possibility that at least part of the problem might be microphonics involving your source component(s), or possibly even both of the two amplifiers you've used.
I see in a post you made a couple of months ago that you are using, or at least were using at that time, an ARC CD7 as your source, which is replete with tubes. Is it by any chance placed between or close to the speakers?
Just a thought. Regards,
-- Al
Edit: Just after submitting this post, I saw the photos of the room to which you just provided a link. I think I may have had a point. Re your earlier mention of the problem being most pronounced on the left side of the room, I note that the left channel amplifier appears to be significantly closer to the corresponding speaker than the right channel amplifier. |
|
The Brawny Lads meet Depends...Who leaked these photos. Actually the TP probably sounds better than fiberglass and won't damage your lungs or scratch your anus. Tom |
|
As Charles suggested and someone else..try a bass trap or easier and cheaper now to try would be a roll of fiberglass. Move it around near the niche. You could make your own trap when ready ..of wooden dowels, sheeps wool and that nasty fiberglass. Tom |
Help!!!! There's nothing more annoying than boomy bass. I just can't enjoy music anymore.
Help!!!! Audiophile Rule No.1: No panic Here is a pretty good solution for Room Tuning which doesn't cost a fortune and works very well :-) When you made some progress, you are ready for the next cost efficient step which will lift the performance of your System to another level.... Room Damping |
yap, swapped speakers left/right a while ago. today also the thought came to me that maybe the dual mono of the amp is to blame so I swapped the outs from it too... niente.
I thought the painting is probably too light but that's what I had...
irrespective of, this Karan integrated, brand new out of the box, is playing very nicely. |
I agree with Charles1dad, you really should try placing some bass traps in the room. There is obviously a lot of low frequency sound that needs to be absorbed. |
There are various forms of digital or analogue bass equalizers that can greatly reduce bass booming. Since this is a very serious problem for you, this approach should be considered even though it is anathema to a "purist" approach. This is much more of a certain cure than any other cure. |
Have you swapped speaker position left to right? The angle thing..needs to be larger and denser than the painting. Tom |
Time to give bass traps a try, you have nothing to lose. |
I've been trying some of the suggestions you guys have gathered for me, the stacked wood, some polyester stuffed, some more positioning, a large painting on the corner created by the little wall on the left to break the 90 degrees, etc.
so far, nada.
the boominess is there at all cases, sometimes it's even worse, except for those two pillows that were very strongly pushed into the ports but that have also significantly reduced the dynamics and extensions on both ends of the music.
tonight I have here a Karan KAI180MKII integrated at home to listen to a little but even though I can tell there's more control in the bass department, it's still boomy, and still the left side is the more boomy part of the room.
the best "proof" of the bomminess is my 6 years old daughter who walks in front of the speakers, while playing softly, and says "it breaks my ears".
bottom line, frustrating.
spiritofmusic, yes, this thought has crossed my mind but a) I think these speakers setup right really play lovely music. b) the last thing I feel like doing now is selling/buying etc namely in the current economic mood here in Europe.
so I'd rather try anything possible before giving up on these.
what's next?
thanks again for the help from you all. |
Amuseb, have you had the problem from day one? Lots of interesting suggestions, but maybe this isn't the spkr for your room, period?
I used to run Zu Definitions Mk2s, with xoverless full range drivers and 4 x 10" bass drivers out the rear, so some major similarities with your Hornings. Bass integration was a major issue, and I mostly solved it using the Spatial Computer Black Hole anti-bass wave generator, which sitting behind the listener, uses a mic and dsp to sample the bass from the main spkrs, and pumps bass into the room to eliminate phase issues, standing waves and bass nodes. The problem wasn't totally solved, but improved a good 60-70%.
I've upgraded to the Zu Definitions 4s which dispense with rear firing woofers for a single floor firing one. Bass better than ever, but still helped by the Black Hole.
For $1250, full money back guarantee, it's worth a try. |
I think Duke's idea is a very good one and easy to undue if you don't like the results. The following is also easy to try. The replacement or reduction of 90 degree angles that I mentioned earlier there is one major angle you can try replacing. The niche or nook, that angle can be changed in a fairly easy experiment. If you had a solid wood panel like a door or you could take a door off its hinges temporarily you could place that barrier at the niche. The barrier wall of the niche is at a 90 degree and if you experiment by placing that panel at a 35 to 58 degree angle so it intersects the front edge and the side wall I think you will hear a big improvement. You can use this panel to steer the bass and listen for a change in angle and a change in how the room loads the bass. You have to use a solid not a rug or other porous material. If this idea works well you and the family need to decide what looks good and sounds good. I have performed these experiments before and have made permanent changes as a result. Tom |
"I'm also not 100% sure I understand the way the wood boards have to be inserted into the bass port. Can you clarify? Does it matter which wood to use and what the thickness of the board should be?"
Suppose the port is 150 mm tall by 200 mm wide by 300 mm deep. And suppose you have access to 18 mm plywood (the kind of wood really doesn't matter - its main function is to take up space). In this case, I would suggest cutting four or five boards, each about 199 mm wide by 300 mm long, and of course 18 mm thick. See if placing some or all of the boards in the port, thus reducing its cross-sectional area, makes a worthwhile improvement. The theory is, if the box is acting like a vented box down in the bass region, this will lower the tuning frequency and hopefully reduce any upper bass bumpage without detrimental side effects.
"Duke, If one product`s purpose is to "absorb" or hinder vibrantion/resonance(attempting to isolate), this is different than "mechanical grounding"(MG). With MG there`s no attempt to absorb, rather you allow the vibration/resonance a rapid and complete exit channel to "gound" this energy into the floor.One seems opposite from the other.An example of the MG approach is the Star Sound system brass points and stands."
I don't see these two approaches as opposites. Your approach addresses mechanical vibration, and mine addresses airborne vibrations, better known as sound waves. One can have a speaker with a resistive port (such as a Variovent, or a DIY variant like I described above), and that speaker can also be sitting on brass points. The opposite of your approach would be de-coupling the cabinet from the floor, via something like Herbie's Big Dots.
I have not experienced mechanical grounding to make a significant difference in the frequency response of a loudspeaker system. From the description, it sounded to me like a large change in the bass response was called for, and so I suggested a possible acoustic solution. Nothing wrong with trying a mechanical solution as well.
Nothing against bass traps or speaker re-positioning either. The more options Amuseb has available, the greater his chances of success. I'm just trying to add to his options by describing a couple of unorthodox approaches that are inexpensive and easily reversible.
Duke |
Speaking of grounding speakers- I just wanted to share my personal experience, that doesn't necessarily will apply to any other speaker/system.
I have tried multiple approaches- spikes, cones (Mapleshade, Audiopoints, BDR, etc.), isolation platforms (Mapleshade maple blocks, Sistrum, Symposium, Herbie's), etc., etc.
Now my search is (hopefully) over- the best solution by far is Stillpoints Ultra 5s on Symposium Super Plus platform.
The results are simply amazing- increase in resolution, articulation. Very natural and relaxed at the same time presentaion, without any downside, as I experienced with other support systems.
The whole listening experience is at completely different level- I get involved in every single listening session, regardless of what is playing- something, that rarely happened before. And that's what counts.
Again, your experience might not replicate mine.
Should I mention how much I hated to pay the admission price? Absolutely ridiculous if you ask me! But the funny thing is- it was totally worth it.
YMMV |
Amuseb
If you listen near any boundary, floor, wall and even the ceiling you will hear more bass travel along those surfaces than travel down the more central areas of the room. The idea I suggest and one I use is to redirect the energy from those flat surfaces and scoop that energy into the central part of he room. Try to eliminate some or all 90 degree angles as mid bass punch and sound stage integration will be enhanced. Elimination of the 90's can look very cool as well.
I have some small portable angled units I put on the floor to reduce standing wave's that also add acoustic air to the performance. These can easily be added or subtracted when the family requests you to do so. Tom |
Maril555,
Bass traps were suggested early in this thead(there` no harm in trying them) to address room acoustics. There`s no reason why that and mechanical grounding can`t be done simultaneously,this is fundamental physics and the promblem can be solved.
Regards, |
Everything mentioned are steps.The first step should be grounding the speaker. Until the grounding is done there will be no stable launch pad. As for the room itself geometric angles and shapes strategically placed will redirect low frequency and help with standing wave resonance. Tom |
Cones with sharp points are intended to couple the speaker/stand to the floor so that energy is transferred to the floor. If that floor is sitting on something like a concrete foundation, this huge mass will dissipate the energy without that much being re-radiated as sound. If the flooring is wood suspended on floor beams, that might result in the floor itself acting as a kind of sounding board. This could exacerbate a problem with booming. Whether one approach is better or the other (absorption in a compliant pad, or the fooring doing the absorption) is something that has to be tried.
But, before even doing this kind of experiment, you should experiment with room placement. You can sort of do this by random movement, or use a more systematic approach. I sort of like the "Sumiko" approach which emphasizes proper bass balance. You can find directions on the internet. When using this approach it is amazing how a movement as small as one inch will dramatically change bass response.
The next thing I would try are bass traps in the corners of the room. The primary downside to bass traps is that they are often ugly and take up a lot of room. The lower the frequency that needs to be trapped, the bigger the trap that is needed. I use double stacks of 16" ASC tube traps myself and they do work well.
I have not tried equalization in my own system, but, I have heard it effectively used in some systems.
Good luck. |
I've been reading this with much interest, and kind of surprised by the fact, that the solutions being offered, only address the speaker, as a source of the boominess.
From the OP description though, it seems pretty obvious, that there is a significant room- related issue.
"Very clearly the issue comes from the left side of the room. I'm not sure why. There's a glass door there leading to a corridor which some experts told me would be where the problems comes from but I've covered the door with 3 types of fabric and carpet and it changes absolutely nothing, nada, gurnisht, niente.
There's also a little wall of about 1 meter that comes into the room on the left side about 3 meters from the back wall which creates some kind of a so called "niche" there on the left and when I stand there the boominess is heavy.
When I stand next to the right speakers, there's no boominess at all"
Before you do anything with the speakers, I would try to address that bass buildup in the left part of your room.
Put some crude DIY bass traps in that space (roll of fiberglass insulation?) just to test the theory. If that alleviates the issue, then you are on the right path.
And after the room- related problem is addressed, only then you can play with the speaker port to fix some (if any) residual issues. |
As described this is the approach to take. Like I said
previous until this is done any amount of retuning will be
masked by the fact that the speaker is Not grounded. Same
thing happens with a acoustic instrument that touches the
floor. In a cello that has increased grounding potential
there is a great reduction of or even the elimination of a
wolf tone. Increase the grounding potential and the
instrument grows in stature and texture before your eyes. The
instrument becomes even more resonant and "alive". I came
here to present ideas and not a product. I prefer for people
to find out on their own. Now that the name was dropped I
have to say I work with Star Sound. Tom |
Duke,
If one product`s purpose is to "absorb" or hinder vibrantion/resonance(attempting to isolate), this is different than "mechanical grounding"(MG). With MG there`s no attempt to absorb, rather you allow the vibration/resonance a rapid and complete exit channel to "gound" this energy into the floor.One seems opposite from the other.An example of the MG approach is the Star Sound system brass points and stands.
Regards, |
Good morning from Paris.
I'm still not very clear about the what the "mechanical grounding" tweaks are. Can anyone give product examples for those and to the "absorbing" ones?
I'm also not 100% sure I understand the way the wood boards have to be inserted into the bass port. Can you clarify?
Does it matter which wood to use and what the thickness of the board should be?
Re Tommy, I've been in touch with him now for about 8 months and he usually does not provide many suggestions.
Regards. |
