Solidly lower end HiFi advice. :)
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Most hobbyists will not be in the class of systems to enable all genres and recordings to sound wonderful. No judgment of anyone's efforts, just experience with gear from budget to close to SOTA.
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The Quads were novel cutting edge, in their day. Old Quads now are horribly compromised, utterly incapable of handling today's music, as are most HiFi speakers. When you hear the "hash" of it, you know the system is not that good, and/or was poorly set up. Superior systems play all music superbly.
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jnorris2005, perhaps you can temper your declarative attitude. Others prefer different genres of music; get used to it. The high end certainly doesn't revolve around your taste.
Further, you seem to have profound ignorance of premium audio systems' performance. ALL genres of music sound superior on a superb system. As a reviewer I use many genres of music, some which I do not care to hear regularly. These are valuable to assess the outer limits of performance. Without fail, the better the audio system, the better all genres of music sound on it.
The fact of the matter is that the bulk of audiophiles' systems are not that good. Contemporary music sounds bad on these systems because they simply cannot handle it, while superior systems can. It's foolish to blame the genre of music when the system is poor. If you're running a $5-10K rig, then do not expect such music to sound great. Conversely, anyone can delude themselves into thinking their system is all that when it sounds good playing simpler, less challenging music. The fact is that if the modern music sounds poor on your system, then it's not that great of a system, and/or you didn't set it up well.
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And now, let’s take a look at my comment in context, shall we?
Here it is:
ALL genres of music sound superior on a superb system. As a reviewer I use many genres of music, some which I do not care to hear regularly. These are valuable to assess the outer limits of performance. Without fail, the better the audio system, the better all genres of music sound on it.
The fact of the matter is that the bulk of audiophiles’ systems are not that good. Contemporary music sounds bad on these systems because they simply cannot handle it, while superior systems can. It’s foolish to blame the genre of music when the system is poor. If you’re running a $5-10K rig, then do not expect such music to sound great. Conversely, anyone can delude themselves into thinking their system is all that when it sounds good playing simpler, less challenging music. The fact is that if the modern music sounds poor on your system, then it’s not that great of a system, and/or you didn’t set it up well.
Fact: in the spectrum of performance $5-10K systems are not great. Does that mean a person cannot enjoy the experience of listening to their system in that price range? Not at all, and that should have been evident by my discussion of such systems not handling demanding music. Instead, those with lower end rigs use that out of context to assault me as though disdaining less expensive rigs.
Whether you like it or not, a cheaper system is not all that. It cannot, will not, will never be as good as a much higher end rig. Take offense at that if you wish- it’s your issue. I wanted better, so I put a lot of money and effort (continuing) into it. If you don’t want to put the money and effort into it, great, but let’s not play a game of saying the cheap stereo is as good as the higher end one, or that you’re really getting somewhere by "embedding" it.
Have I ever mocked someone’s low cost rig? Never. I do debate people who insist that lower end rigs give essentially the same experience as upper end rigs. They do not. Only if you want to defend your budget, and say, "The both play music," can you defend that kind of conclusion. Once you discuss the quality of the experience - and as I was pointing out, the ability of a system to play exceptionally difficult recordings - then there is little comparison between a $5K rig and a $50K rig, at least if the person setting it up knows what they are doing. A rig that is $5-10K will almost universally have serious shortcomings in sound quality, as assessed from the entire spectrum of performance. Does this mean someone can't thoroughly enjoy it? No, but the topic here was problematic performance, and I assert that it's not so much the genre of music, but the inability of lower end systems to play it well. No amount of disdain directed toward me for that conclusion will change my opinion. It's not a matter of respect, but of performance, which is not a respecter of persons.
Fact: The performance spectrum is far greater than most budget audiophiles are willing to accept. Moving to a system that is MSRP multiples higher will usually assure that you will be in an entirely different class of listening experience, not the least because of the difference In speakers used.
I was a budget audiophile for many years, attempting to convince myself that these things were not so. I hold zero disdain of budget audio. I hold disdain for those who attempt to mock, ridicule, or marginalize higher end audio as though it is a rip-off or "diminishing returns".
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Apologies given, apologies accepted. I get a bit gruff on the topic at times. That's usually an indicator for me to step away from the forum for a while.
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deep_333, How many speakers have you compared in your home - particularly ones costing 10x-20x - against the Moab and Adante?
BTW, it seems you have not ever heard the Moab, so your opinion on that I consider based on hearsay. |
deep_333, you haven't compared the Moab in your home to anything, and you have the Adante working with subs to make it offer even a passable serious floor standing performance. Further, if you did not compare the speakers with the precise same system, then you have no direct comparison. It appears that you used entirely different gear with the other speakers.
That means you have no direct comparisons; at least that is what can be ascertained from what you have shared. Ergo, you have little to nothing in the way of direct comparison. Consequently, your posts are of little value. The hype combined with sarcasm are trotted out in place of actual experience. Here's a piece of wisdom you need to repeat until it sinks in:
It is ONLY when speakers are compared directly, with the same gear, in the same room, that a reasonable judgment can be made as to the absolute performance of each speaker.
Obviously, when you put $30K of pre/amp ahead of it, a speaker will shine brilliantly, at least as far as its capabilities allow. I have done so many times, but that in no way makes the budget speaker somehow a far superior speaker. I have used the Pass Labs XA200.8 Monos (reviewed for Dagogo.com) with speakers such as the Tri-Art Audio Series B 5 Open, which, BTW, at about $5K would in several aspects of performance outperform the Adante. That is an absolute fact, not opinion, as the observation is based on design of the speakers, not subjective assessment.
My conclusion is that you have little to no actual comparison of gear, which is why your posts are loaded with hype. The fact is, you have NO clue how the Moab, and little clue how the Adante ACTUALLY would compare; you pretend you know, which means you are full of the hubris that plagues this hobby. Until you get a couple of speakers side by side, you can make all the claims you want - and it's worth just about zero. If you cannot moderate your arrogance, and admit you have far less experience than you pretend, I am finished discussing with you.
To the community: I am making no absolute judgment of the Moab or Adante, as I have not heard them in my room, nor compared them directly to other speakers. That other speakers such as the Tri-Art 5 Open would likely outperform the Adante in terms of bass, i.e. bass extension, and perhaps preference of bass quality due to being open baffle, should be obvious. If not, please do not open an argument over it, because I am not interested in arguing that observation. :) |
"Flawed" is a pretty harsh assessment of a budget speaker. It had severe fiscal limitations, a price point to hit. Some slack has to be given for that. True, the hype has been over the top. I certainly was not overly impressed when hearing the bookshelf Elac that people were falling over themselves to make hyperbolic statements regarding the performance. It was another bookshelf. One that did impress me duly was the Ryan Speakers bookshelf model.
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In my experience with both lower end and upper end systems, distinction between steel and nylon strings is not necessarily an exacting measure of a system's absolute capacity. Even lower end HiFi systems can distinguish the difference between steel and nylon strings. Back when I built $5K rigs I could always hear (but not nearly as clearly as with upper end rigs) the difference between them. It takes no great feat to do so. Similar with vibes versus Xylophone; there is a gross enough distinction that they can be identified with lower end systems. This is not a good measure of the rig being extreme in terms of
resolution, imo.
The proper question is to what degree can a system do so? That takes head to head comparison, and all the hype and promotion here does not answer it. My Kirksaeter Silverline 220 Speakers, which I used (sold a while back) in a second system, with it's twin 7.5" woofers and 7.5" midrange, would have likely made a very nice comparison to the Elac Adante, and may have outperformed the Adante in some respects. But, regardless of the designer(s) and manufacturing, only a comparison head to head would tell. :)
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Well, the addition of six subs most definitely changes the game for a bookshelf speaker. Does it magically make the Elac perform as a far higher end speaker? Only relatively, not inherently. That's one of the largest problems this community has, a belief in magical transformation of products, such that they somehow jump to a higher level of performance than better gear if only the right ancillary components are selected. It's wishful thinking, and not a good way to build superior systems. Such rigs typically have major shortcomings.
The addition of multiple larger drivers to jack up LF is a valid way to get more out of a speaker. I do similar when I add the Legacy Audio XTREME XD Subwoofers, with one active and one passive 15" driver per sub, to the already prodigiously equipped Legacy Audio Whisper DSW Clarity Edition, which has its native eight 15" woofers. The result? An even more prodigious performance, with presence and articulation in the bass at low level that seems preternatural.
Now, If I were to put in the modest Insignia 2-way speakers that were all the rage years ago (I have a pair I have kept for the fun of it) with those subs, would that magically make them perform on a par with the Whisper? One would have to be completely delusional to think so. Would they be "game changer" in the sense that they somehow were doing as the Whisper does? No, not at all. That's the kind of game that a Chinztiphile plays in an attempt to save lots of money, and they are only fooling themselves. That video is of a gimmick that appears designed to showcase subs, and kudos to REL, as it does. It would be a terribly compromised solution for the audiophile to set up the Elac speaker in such a fashion.
YMMV, and I am not interested in arguing my observations. :) |
