Hi-Fi Fuses - SNAKE OIL? - or something in it?

Mental, sounds like you need one of them new-fangled outboard fans

Geoff, what he really needs is for you to invent a quantum fan that will cool a COVERED pre-amp or better yet, teleport it to another dimension ;-)

@Lacee- I believe it was Ivor Tiefenbrun(founder of Linn), that was quoted as having said, "If you haven't heard it; you have no opinion." Of course; that was just his opinion. BTW: Having already upgraded everything that you mention in your previous post(except my tube sockets); I'm still trying to find those upgraded(metallugically) fuse holders.

I've heard a lot of fuses over the years. I'm pretty sure most of the gear I have listened to had one or more inside. :)

I've even seen a few first hand opening up units that had problems like channels out, etc. for customers.

They all sounded pretty good to me. Except the blown ones, of course.

Its been a while though. Maybe fuse technology has made great strides since. A lot of newer stuff that I think sounds really good probably have fuses inside doing their thing.

Everyone has opinons and all are equally respected, just the opinons from those who have experienced the fuse are a bit more respected than the opinons from those who have not.

One opinon is based on experience the other on speculation .

The fuse god told me this.

Mental, sounds like you need one of them new-fangled outboard fans; can I suggest the batty powered O 2 Cool fan?

I was thinking some more about the need to replace old fuse holders when you use upgraded fuses.

If you follow that logic, then you should replace the RCA's on your amp,pre etc when you switch interconnects, replace the binding posts when you change speaker wires and replace all tube sockets when you swap out or replace tubes.

In the grand scheme of things and going the extra mile I would agree to this also, and I have replaced all the stock connections in my rig from the panel to the connectors on the gear.

It does make a difference.

So if I ever come across upgraded fuse holders that are compatible with my amps I will do it.

If fuses blow, then there is a flaw in the component or in the design.
Upgraded fuses will blow when called upon.I speak from experience.
I also speak from experience that solid wire in place of a fuse never did any harm to any amp, tube or solid state or speaker that I used it in, but... I don't suggest anyone do this.And you don't have to anymore to get better sound.

I bypassed stock fuses with wire in the follwing-Mission 770, CLS11Z,Nads,Classe DR 8's, Michelson and Austin TVA 10,RGR amp and pre amp,Magnepans,Blue Circle monos,various Brit integrateds and el 34 tube based amps,in fact almost every amp or speaker I've owned from the early 80's on to the day I switched to upgraded fuses.

I know I was walking on thin ice, my friends would always flinch when I'd fire up the system keeping a close eye on the nearest exit.

Nothing ever happened.Perhaps I was lucky,or just that the gear was in good shape.
Had any of the gear been shoddy I would not have been so lucky.

But I don't have to tempt fate anymore.

The upgraded fuses that I have experience with sound better than the stock fuses, come close to using no fuse, but give me all the SAME (I've blown then in wrong placement)protection a cheap one buck wonder does.

I find it very interesting that some manufacturers place so much faith in the simple cheap stock fuse.

There are other ways to provide thermal protection without using these cheap fuses.
Some high quality amps go this alternate route, but you pay for it.Using cheap stock fuses saves money.

I would be a bit suspect of any pricey power amp that still uses the cheap stock fuses.
If they cut corners here looking to save a buck, wherelse are they compromising quality for profit margins?

I remember one manufacturer of pro PA speakers that used a good old light bulb inside his cabinet to soak up any power overloads before they destroyed the driver.

Cheap off the shelf fuses weren't in his design notebook, although I am sure others use them in the same application.

I agree that where you apply the upgraded fuse to get the most for your investment is at the IEC inlet, or main power fuse.

If Maggie owners can be trusted when they say that replacing the stock fuse,or bypassing it altogether and hardwiring, makes their speakers sound better,and Peter Aczel, the great audio myth buster,denounced the sound degradation of fuses,some 40 years ago,then there must be more than snake oil involved.

In fact 40 years ago,I can't recall too much of anything being called snake oil except for those fancy high priced alternatives to good old tried and tested 18 guage zip cord.

Yes siree, 18 guage zip cord,does the job, doesn't blow up my amp and makes me feel proud about not spending any more than a few cents a foot for it.

Some things never change.

But I am glad I have.

Mitch2, as usual, you post is well reasoned. It is my practice to do nothing to a piece still under warranty. The risk benefit equation just doesn't favor tweaking in that instance. With respect to replacement fuses, it has been my experience that the only place they made a huge difference was in my Magneplanars. It makes sense that one might hear a more pronounced benefit there. Improvements in other applications have been audible but more subtle. Enough to warrant spending the relatively low cost of most fuses, but not the same order of magnitude as the improvements one can obtain with a change in cables for instance.

I think people need to be realistic in their expectations and think about cost-benefit and risk-benefit. Would I spend $100 to replace the mains fuse in my Cary's? Yes. Would I spend $1000 to replace the rest of the fuses in the Carys? No.

As far as messing with the ratings, I have used a lower rated fuse, but I would never use a higher rated fuse. If a replacement fuse of the correct rating continues to blow, I would probably just go back to stock.

Mitch2, The bottom line: if someone is overly suspicious or not competent changing fuses and or insuring proper fuse direction he should probably not get into the whole fuse thing. On the other hand, if someone can't hear the effect of aftermarket fuses or fuse directionality, that's a different issue, and it might "point" to a larger problem. It's sometimes difficult to generalize about these things. For example one reason someone might not hear differences between a stock fuse and a HiFi Fuse is that they were both inserted in the wrong direction.

Most manufacturers I have spoken with not only don't buy into the audio-specific fuse thing, they advise against it because of questionable ratings and quality.
Last year, I spoke with the head service guy at one of the largest component manufacturers in the US and he said their company was continuing to discuss how to address aftermarket fuses and the effect on warranty, but their current position was that the use of an aftermarket fuse would void the warranty in the event of damage of a questionable nature (that should have been prevented by the stock fuse).
I do know one manufacturer/upgrader who recommends audio fuses in their products but they actually go a half amp higher than with regular fuses because they suspect the audio fuse they use is underrated (because the component kept blowing those fuses until they upped the amperage).
I used to use HiFi Tuning fuses, back when I tried things "just in case" they would make a difference, but I haven't heard a difference compared to stock fuses and I don't worry about fuses and other "last one percent" stuff much anymore.
One thing I would be careful of is bumping fuses up one amp as recommended earlier in this thread. Depending on the rating of the fuse being replaced, a 1A increase could be significant and in general, IMO you are taking a chance on both warranty and protection of your gear when you deviate from the manufacturer's rating.

Mapman wrote,

"GEoff, I was expecting a refute or at least denial of my "charlatan" comment, not insults directed towards a chair."

My bad. I thought you called me a harlequin.

I agree. Chair possess much fortitude!!

"Your chair resents that.... but yet, it puts up with your stinky butt all these years?"

Chairs deserve more credit......

Your chair resents that.... but yet, it puts up with your stinky butt all these years? Sorry, Mapman. I couldn't resist, no offense. HA

"Mapman, couple questions. Is it a BarcoLounger or a La-Z-Boy? And does it have one of those cool beer holders?"

GEoff, I was expecting a refute or at least denial of my "charlatan" comment, not insults directed towards a chair. My chair resents that.....

"Mapman, really? Thought I saw ya standin in that over night line waiting for the sale to begin. :)"

Maybe my twin brother. Or my evil alter ego who sometimes goes by the moniker "madman".

Mapman, couple questions. Is it a BarcoLounger or a La-Z-Boy? And does it have one of those cool beer holders?

Lacee,

Just because I am not rushing out to buy any new fuses at this time doesn't mean others should not. I have my priorities, others have theirs. That's what makes the world go round.

I do not automatically go out and try everything that might make a difference. Who has time for that?

Once my stuff sounds the way I want it to, I tend to not change a darn thing until there is a reason I can hear. Nothing lasts forever, so eventually something always seems to come up. Maybe a new fuse will be called for at some point. When it does, I will get one or two or however many needed. WHat kind will I get? Dunno. Time will tell. Meanwhile, if the fuses are making someones listening better, then by all means I am happy for that person.

Mapman,one thing I am certain of is that you probably will never even try an upgraded fuse.The other thing is that I don't use Furutech fuses,I use AMR, Iso Clean and HiFi Supreme. I do very much like and use Furutech GTX-R recptacles, their rhodium IEC, and RCA,and speaker connectors and their power cable receptacles and bulk power cord wire.
All many times more costly than an AMR fuse.

Are they the reason why the upgraded fuses make such a profound improvement in the sound of my system?

Answer- yes.

Do you need to use all these costly aftermarket devices to gain the benefit of an upgraded fuse?

Answer-no.

The only way for anyone to know the answer to the post-HiFi fuses-Snake oil? or something in it? is to try one for yourself, in your system.

Until someone does, they can only speculate one way or the other.

I do side with the folks who base their opinions on something that they have actually used in their system,rather than with those who speculate the merits or lack of from the sidelines.

I am almost tempted to send you one to try,but the postage and hassels of sending things from one country to another would cost as much as an AMR fuse.

Again, I urge anyone who feels that fuses have no sonic impact on what they are used in to dig up an old copy of the Audio Critic ,where almost 40 years ago, Peter Aczel came to the conclusion that fuses degrade the sound of what they are used in.

I lived on the edge for years, bypassing the fuses in my gear forsaking safety for better sound because of what Aczel said. I actually replaced the fuses with DIY fuse replacements of solid or stranded copper.He was right, the gear just sounded more clear and defined.

When the upgraded fuses came out, I knew that if they were closer to sounding like no fuses then this was for me.Providing protection was the icing on the cake.

After years of arguing the fuse and defending those who also feel the same as I,an upgraded fuse is still better than a stock one and , though not as uncoloured as no fuse, is my prefered way to go about the business of getting closer to what's on the recording.

An upgraded fuse is no different in this instance than an upgraded speaker wire, interconnect power cord, rack, room tuning device, power supply upgrade, resistor capacitor upgrade or tube swap for some exotic NOS.

Those things cost a whole lot more money, and for the most part trade one colouration for another.One day it's vanilla, next it's chocolate coated.

I have full sets of Iso Cleans, and HiFi supremes that sit in their boxes as spares, along with my stock fuses.
At $20.00 a fuse the AMR is a steal,and an improvemnt in any fuse holder you put it in.

" I kinda suspect in order to get to the bottom of a lot of these things like fuses it is most helpful to actually try them. Anyone can sit on the sidelines in the comfort of his easy chair and wonder."

Spoken like a true charlatan.

I will need a fuse someday most likely, but not now. Fact is its way down on my list of things to try before my time is up, even on the list of audio only things. But it does rank above any products I have seen to-date from Machina Dynamica. Just being honest.

Mapman wrote,

""What is it again about the sound that the Furutech fuses improve? WOuld turning up the volume some otherwise achieve similar results?"

I thought that was a good question.

Geoff mocking it makes me think so even more."

Well, of course it makes you think so even more. That's the Backfire Effect in action. I kinda suspect in order to get to the bottom of a lot of these things like fuses it is most helpful to actually try them. Anyone can sit on the sidelines in the comfort of his easy chair and wonder.

I have a RS bulk tape eraser. I hold the cd in one hand and the bulk tape eraser in the other. I turn on the coil and move it to the cd from the side, not from the top. I hold the coil on the label side of the cd for about 10 seconds and slide the cd around slightly since the coil is just a bit smaller than the diameter of the cd. Then I move the coil slowly away sideways from the cd and after it is about a foot away I turn off the coil.

"What is it again about the sound that the Furutech fuses improve? WOuld turning up the volume some otherwise achieve similar results?"

I thought that was a good question.

Geoff mocking it makes me think so even more.

Lacee,

Let's look at your simple question through the eyes of someone who's cup isn't so full that there's no more room for any open-minded thoughts

I won't spend $20.00 to improve my system by simply replacing a fuse. No, never, because if I can't spend three days opening up and installing a better fuse socket to take full advantage of the $20.00 fuse, it's not worth doing!

Man, I'm glad that you and I are closed-minded, short-sighted and unintentionally depriving ourselves of the full enjoyment that we should be waiting for.

Mapman,

The answer is 'No'. It's not like turning up the volume, it's like just cleaning up the AC a little more and lowering the noise floor from less AC junk.

Chuck

Mapman wrote,

"What is it again about the sound that the Furutech fuses improve? WOuld turning up the volume some otherwise achieve similar results?"

I'm getting the distinct feeling a laughing goat award might be forthcoming.

What is it again about the sound that the Furutech fuses improve? WOuld turning up the volume some otherwise achieve similar results?

I have replaced the stock IEC on my acoustat servo amps with Rhodium Furtechs so that it's furtech from the dedicated line thru to the amps.Opened her up and soldered new wire to the IEC, also added Furutech rhodiun RCA,and 3 per speaker Furtech speaker connectors, not a stranger to simple mods.

I would certainly like to improve the fuse sockets, which have been sanded and cleaned and given a coating of ESST(on all connections)not sure if Furtech makes them, but if they do I will add them to the mix.

But I ask the question-why wait for upgraded fuse holders, when a simple $20.00 investment in an AMR fuse will get you most of the way there even with that stock fuse holder?

For me, I'll enjoy the improved sound the fuse gives me over the stock one now,, knowing that I would only enjoy it more with an improved upgraded fuse holder.

Why deprive yourself?

Radio shack bulk tape erasers should be easy and inexpensive to find on eBay for twenty bucks or so, at least the last time I looked. There is a bit of a trick to using bulk tape erasers on CDs and thst is not to hold it too close and only swirl it a couple times, oh, and before releasing the ON button hold the tape eraser well away from the CD.

Lacee,

I think that you said it well and nailed it on the head!

Thanks!
Chuck

I also have been using a Hammond bulk tape eraser, which was given to me by a friend who changed his studio to all digital before he passed away.

I have yet to find anyone who can't hear an improvemnt after a disc has been demagnetized.

I'll ask a friend to bring over a fave cd.

We'll listen to a single cut.
Then I demag the cd, pop it back in and we listen again.

Just like a parlour magic trick, my friends start asking what else I may have done to the settings on my system, like did I add more volume?

They hear the difference but can't wrap their heads around the fact that all I did was to zap both sides of the cd for 20 seconds each.

If you can find them,and they are working up to speed, the old pro bulk erasers work their magic everytime, on lp's and dvds.
I never play any discs that haven't been zapped, and I can tell when someone brings over a cd that sounds diffuse and jangly that this is a fine candidate for a demag.

I don't care about the how or why,only that it works.

Now about the "expense" of upgraded fuses, I think they keep you from spending a great deal more money on endless upgrades and swapping of components.

Fine tuning a system seems to be out of fashion in the new disposable age.
Don't like or have grown too acquainted with a component, then sell it and buy somethingelse,use stock fuses and then sell it,never knowing how good both pieces could really sound because both were compromised by that cheap stock fuse.

I think losing and spending thousands of dollars(as I have)looking for the next big audio junkie fix is an endless journey into frustration, and ultimately leads to burnout.
Then you sell off all the good stuff and settle for mediocre stuff, convincing yourself that it should only be about the music afterall.

The sad story is that if you always ran stock fuses, wires etc, and never really got into the Tweakiness" of this hobby, you've never heard how good that frustrating system really was.

The blame lies not with the system, the snake oil or the evil High End and all their minions.

The reason for someone's displeasure ,frustration with this hobby rests with them.

But then it's always the easy way out to blame someone or something for one's misfortunes.

For what it's worth, I've found that what you get out of this hobby is only as good as the effort you put into it.

"It happens during the ripping process, too, I'm sorry to report. You know, what with the laser reading the data on the CD and everything, just like reading the disc in real time."

There is more to making music/sound than just reading the data off the disc. SO the two are not the same even though that step alone may or may not be in each case.

Mapman wrote,

"I actually rip all my CDs to music server these days. I never play a CD directly, so there is no music making occurring anywhere near the actual CD. Lots of bad things can happen in theory reading an optical disc in real time to make music."

It happens during the ripping process, too, I'm sorry to report. You know, what with the laser reading the data on the CD and everything, just like reading the disc in real time.

You wrote,

"I'll take that as a compliment." OK, let's say it was a compliment.

:-)

I actually rip all my CDs to music server these days. I never play a CD directly, so there is no music making occurring anywhere near the actual CD. Lots of bad things can happen in theory reading an optical disc in real time to make music.

I also use Wifi networked players with external DAC to make the music. No wired connection to a music server computer. This provides very good noise isolation between source computer/music server and hifi system.

VEry straightforward, functional, and always sounds great. Not that there are not potential snafus with any approach, but this one that works well, its easy to understand why, and really leaves little to want sound quality-wise.

Mapman,

Here is an IAR article on the Furutech RD-1 CD Demagnetizer. Scroll down the page to Furutech RD-1 CD Demagnetizer.
Long but an interesting read.

http://www.iar-80.com/page53.html

Here is an article by 6moonsfor the Furutech RD-1 CD Demagnetizer.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech/rd1.html

Here is a 6moons article for the RD2.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech/rd2.html
.

" Mapman, you see everything! :-) "

I'll take that as a compliment.

But, not how demagnetizing a CD, which has no materials capable of producing a magnetic field TTBOMK would add any value and if it did, why it would not be more common.

I used to use a tape head demagnetizing device on cassette decks periodically. Seemed to make sense it would have some effect there and results good or bad could be clearly be heard no doubt. Such devices for that purpose were common and relatively inexpensive.

On the bright side, I like how my CDs sound already so I will not loose any sleep pondering how to fix what isn't broken to start with.

If I'm missing something, it won't be the first time. :^)

Jea48, thanks for posting the Bedini patent. Makes a lot of sense. ;-)

Tonywinsc,

Since you opened the door,....

Several years ago I experimented with a bulk tape eraser and compared the final product to that of a CD spun on a Bedini Ultra Clarifier. (Both sides spun and treated.)

I preferred the final sound product of the Clarifier over the bulk tape eraser.

Here is the simple explaination of how a Bedini Clarifier works.

http://www.google.com/patents/US5487057?printsec=abstract&dq=bedini
.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. Anyway, I have never tried expensive fuses and I don't plan to.

Light isn't really affected by magnetism; otherwise magnets would look blurry or distorted. Gravity and a change in medium, ie. air to water or to vacuum are the only things we know of today that affect light's properties. And I have heard the magnetism theory before too which would have to apply only to any metallic inks used in the labels on CDs since the reflective material used inside the CD is typically Aluminum, except for some special Gold sputtered CDs.
The difference that I hear after demagnetizing a CD is like the difference between a dirty stylus and a clean one on a record. The music becomes clearer and eliminates what sounds like mis-tracking on a record. I bought the bulk tape eraser in the mid 90s just for kicks after reading an article about it. I figured that I would take it back the next day for a refund. I never expected to hear a difference.