Heads Up: ARC is introducing the new SP-20 in Fall

Tater ... what I am about to say is a "chicken and egg" observation. As I said above, I usually buy pre-owned or refurbed gear for the reasons you just posted. Also, because I won't pay full retail -- it's too darn expensive. Not that 60+% of retail is cheap. But somebody is buying new or else folks like me wouldn't be in the secondary market.

I can only surmise the folks who buy new are either extremely well-heeled for financially irresponsible. Now here's a curiosity Q. I just picked up an ARC Ref 150 that's about 2 years old with only 1100 hours of time logged on it. Why would someone flip a Ref 150 in such a short period of time?? I've even seen cases where people are flipping expensive gear within a year, sometimes less.

In the case of my Ref 150, I know the story. I bought the Ref from an ARC dealer who sold the amp to his customer 2 years ago. The same customer traded the Ref 150 with the same dealer for new ARC Ref 250s. I guess there's pockets of major bucks out there that supporting a very expensive hobby.

I'm doing ok so far, thank G-d, but I'm not a card carrying member of the well-heeled club. It's taken me years of trading/exchanging gear to get where I'm holding. I've made some mistakes, but have been able to recoup most of money at small loss because of the way I buy.

But to your point -- is expensive gear like ARC products worth it? I think so. Some members posted above that reputable companies like ARC drop a lot of cash into R&D, build quality and QC into their gear. I believe that to be the case, especially since significant hours of skilled labor are also required for assembly. I also find that that comment credible when I open up a component to install the tubes and I see just incredible build quality and artfully selected colored wires.

Last point -- some people like boats, others expensive cars and so forth. For me, escaping into my sound room and listening to beautiful music takes me to a much more serene and peaceful place. Enough said.

Cheers and have a nice Labor Day wekend,

Bruce

Minori, I know it's not worth 9k because the moment you buy it and open up the box it's worth 40 percent less. Is a Mercedes worth 40% less? Is a Rolex watch worth 40% less? In fact If you buy a Rolex used you could probably get what you paid for it. High-end audio is way overpriced when you buy new. If you buy it used it's a decent value.

08-28-13: Minorl
"But the real question should be, are you getting what you pay for? An object, equipment, car, house, art, etc. is worth exactly what a person is willing to pay for it."

Great point Minorl - there is a price point for everyone, that's why there are so many models in a line and so much innovation. Newer, bigger, heavier and lots of marketing doesn't always mean better, or better for me! The good news in our hobby is diminishing returns sets in fairly quick.

It is always interesting to me when people complain about the prices of components. Most times, they don't know too much about how things are designed (R&D), components are procurred, or construction. Not to mention the company's overhead. However, you are correct, even though I am an Engineer and know how these things work, I still see prices that are stupidly high. My logic is, just don't buy it if I think it is too high. Same for cars, clothes, and just about anything else. Why worry about it and stress myself out? Just walk away with a smile. I like the quality of Audio Research's equipment. They know their stuff. So, right now the REF 250 amps are out of my price range. But the day is young. One never knows do one? as the saying goes. But the real question should be, are you getting what you pay for? An object, equipment, car, house, art, etc. is worth exactly what a person is willing to pay for it. So, all thing considering, like Overhead, design/R&D costs, construction costs, estimated number of units to sell, etc. a company will set their price point and run with it. It's kind of funny how you really don't see people compaining about car prices. They think a Mercedes is actually worth what the dealer is asking. I see no difference between that and a "high end" piece of audio equipment. Sometimes you do get what you pay for. Sometimes. Audio Research = quality audio equipment.

enjoy

Taters, my OP responds to your point: "MSRP is $9000 -- a veritable bargain. ;-( "

I agree with your comment that ARC gear isn't cheap. And like you, I purchase gear that is either preowned or "refurbed" (i.e., gear that ARC used as a show or dealer demo).

I usually pay about 60-65% of MSRP. My "new" Ref 150 is a preowned unit that only had about 1000 hours on it. That's great because the prior owner broke the Ref 150 in for me. ;-)

Bruce

I'm surprised no one says anything about the price. I guess in today's market you have to be rich to own ARC gear. I can't afford any of their new gear. I do own ARC gear but I purchased it used. It still wasn't cheap but I figure it should hold it's value pretty good so it's still a good buy used.

Bifwynne, atta boy!

Vic ... when I reach my biblical 120, I plan to take my ARC gear with me. ;>')

Hey, don't forget the SP15. It also handles low output MC cartridges just fine and sounds great with NOS tubes.

You ARC people crack me up. I get it and I respect you but damn. ARC has to be the most prolific model developer ever. They certainly know how to maintain their customers interest.

No problem using a .23mV Kansui with a PH-6. The PH-6 has far more gain versus any of the older SP preamps you mention.

If the SP series will handle .2mV then any of the modern ARC phono preamps, i.e. PH-5, PH-6, PH-7, PH-8, etc., will work fine.

I know I have owned the SP-10, SP-14, PH-5, PH-6. The PH series are much, much better with LOMC(.2mV) versus any of the SP series. The SP-20 will have similar gain to the PH-6.

@Bifwynne

There are many fine LOMC cartridges lower than .5mV, (to many to name) that you can not use!

Why limit yourself?

FYI the old ARC SP9's, SP10, SP11,and SP14 all could handle cartridges down to .2mV.

Don .... with respect, give me a break. I own an ARC PH-8 phono stage which also has 58 db of gain. The PH-8 can handle cartridges with output as low as .5 mV, such as my Lyra Kleos. I think many members would agree that the Lyra Delos and Kleos are pretty fine cartridges. So I don't think I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel on the vinyl side of my rig.

Btw, I've had conversations with Peter Ledermann of Sound-Smith about his low output MI cartridges such as the Paua and Sussaro (.3 mV output). The output of those cartridges is obviously too low for my phono pre, but Peter said he might be able to custom build some of his cartridges to squeeze more output as a special order item.

Bruce

My ARC Ref Phono 2SE is super quiet, even for low output carts. Its as quiet as my solid state Rowland Cadence. Not sure about ARC's other phono stages, but the Ref's are fantastic!

It will not handle low output MC cartridges, only medium output.

If you want to use truely low output MC catridges the only ARC product is the reference phono stage.

ARC can not make low noise phono stages. If they were any good at design they could at least try.

What's up with that! For record playback move on!