Have Luxman 509x. Considering Pass Labs INT-250 or Dan D’Agostino Progression Integrated

As a known Luxman fanboy I’m glad to hear of the positive experience with the latest generation, but man, those prices!!

AFAIK I got the last new 507ux in the US and if I told you how inexpensive it was you’d all be mad at me.

Seeing $9k for the 507z and $12k for the 509z... ouch! No wonder Fritz keeps wondering if I’m selling mine. 😂

Best,

E

Funny how we all hear different. I have owned the Pass 60 and I now own a Pass 250 and neither sounded mechanical.

True, and personally I am OK with that.  I just felt these amps needed to be hears by the purchaser, really ANY amp should be.  Also, I may have mentioned, this may very well be speaker dependent.  I've heard from some objective owners of Pass that they had very different experiences with different speakers, so it absolutely pays, IMHO to think of whether or not to buy a pass to think of them as part of a system rather than standalone units.

No need to flare up. You hate Pass. I get it. And you’re making it abundantly clear every time you see the brand brought up in a discussion.

@audphile1

Don’t put words in my mouth or in my writing and we won’t have a problem. I don’t actually follow every thread to seek out Pass and bash the brand. I was pretty discrete and to the point. I also don’t hate Pass, the man or the company. The choices they make in tuning the amps is for many but not for me. I find it a distinct enough sound that I can’t recommend purchases without listening.

I’m convinced that a listener will have a strong preference either way and not really need me to tell them what it sounds like.

Of course, fan boys can’t see me posting an opinion like this without using words like "hate" to describe my experiences. It is the deliberate attempt to alter what’s been written to suit their own narrative that makes a fanboy a fanboy as well as just being a generally insincere person. .

No point arguing this. That description was inaccurate and you even back pedaled that one. So let’s move on

@audphile1

That entire statement is false. I’ve not back pedaled anything. This is why I hate Pass fanboys. They feel the need to argue something not argued and prove they have won or scored points.

Scratchy IS the right word for my experience. Lean is the right word for my experience. Both perfectly accurate, but in the context of trying to use written words to describe a somatic / cognitive experience all words are lacking and could benefit from being fleshed out, so in the spirit of clarifying my original statement said that irritating is a better word than scratchy to convey the meaning of my personal experience to others. Not a back pedal, a filling in or adding additional color. I also stated from the very start stated I knew I was in the minority and strongly recommend a personal audition which will have much more weight than anything I type.

Mind you, I am in the minority but I sometimes have people send me private messages saying they agree with my Pass views. Point is, there’s no absolute truth about the quality of Pass sound that will apply to everyone.

As I mention before, I don’t claim the right to tell the world an absolute truth of what Pass gear sounds like, and I am skeptical of those who do, for Pass or any other gear for that matter, but oh, the Pass fanboys just can’t abide that.

I have absolutely nothing to back pedal. I don’t like the sound of Pass gear at all and my reasons are true for me. Nor do I feel a reason to argue to come to some sort of shared truth. My experiences cannot be challenged for honesty or accuracy by the likes of you and I do not demand others agree with them.

@ghdprentice 

While I agree different people have different tastes. This is not at all the Pass sound. I am familiar with the overall spectrum of component sound.

That's fine with me, I don't claim to own the exclusive rights to describe what Pass amps sound like to all music listeners.  I've mentioned from the start my experience was in the minority, and that's fine. It does however make me encourage listeners to give them an unbiased audition before purchase. I feel that regardless of what I type they will love it, or go "meh."

I think that Pass's failure ( sarcasm ) as a commercial enterprise demonstrates how many others feel the way I do.  😁

this is why I simply wont' argue the point, but I can describe my own experiences with it.

I haven’t heard Pass in about 5 years I guess. "Scratchy" is not the right word really. To me, I just can’t listen to it for a whole song. Irritating to listen to for me is the right word.

To me, and perhaps only me, listening to Pass amps is like being constantly bothered by something I can’t quite place my finger on. I just can’t let go and enjoy the music. I find it bothersome. Like some taste soap when they have cilantro. 

I’m definitely not asking others to agree with me, just being honest about my own experiences with it.

Also, risotto is a horribly overrated dish.

I try to avoid discussing pass except to say i find it distinct enough listeners should form their own judgement.

Arguing with others is like arguing cilantro or licorice.

OP:  As an owner of a Luxman 507ux, and an admirer of D'Agostino I've been thinking about your dilemma. 

Honestly I find the Luxman and D'Agostino to be VERY similar.  So much so that it seems a shame to make that move, in either direction. 

I think if you really want "more and better" sounding you should instead consider going to the Luxman separates OR perhaps an Ayre.  I recommend the Ayre not becuase I actually think it's better but because it's significantly different sounding.  I recommend the separates because the additional current in the top end amps can really make a difference.

To add a little, in the 1980's, 1990s there was a big trend of pairing B&W with Audio Research.  The Pass gear strikes me as sounding similar in tonal balance, one I never really could hear as neutral or engaging.

Clearly, CLEARLY, many audiophiles would have disagreed with my tastes then, as they do with my tastes with Pass today.  That's fine, cause you should spend money to please yourself not the crowd.

OP:

I got to hear a lot of different Pass amps at a show, and at a local audiophile’s home. I’ve also gotten to discuss Pass amps with more objective owners than some fanboys.

I find Pass lean, and scratchy. I don’t like listening to it for long. From the owners I got to talk to, they didn’t agree with my scratchy comments, but did say that the bass balance was very speaker dependent. Seems to perform better with old school, big woofer, big cabinet type of designs.

We know from Nelson Pass’ writing that he’s got strong opinions about the types of good distortion, as well as how to handle a woofer, which many listeners completely agree with. I may respect the man and admire the physical beauty of his products but I’m afraid his gear is 100% not for me.

Best,

Erik

The Pass is DIFFERENT.  The D'Agostino very close to the Luxman IMHO at least with moderate loads.

Of the three, I would not suggest anyone buy Pass without listening to it first.  ait's different enough ttat I wouldn't call it a safe bet you''ll like it and think you'll come away with strong preferences after you do.